A rebuttal to the defense of the Zamasu arc ending

[ZombieVito]

Zamasus say they already eliminated all mortals from U7 except from the ones on Earth? The Namekians should be gone.

The matter is simple, the only confirmed fact is that Black destroyed a large number of mortal civilizations before attacking the Earth (stated by Black himself). We don't know if the Namekians survived, just as we don't know if they were destroyed by Black, so we cannot make definitive assumptions that Goku and Trunks could easily ask the Namekians for help.

Either way, they were certainly killed once Infinite Zamasu became the Cosmos and destroyed everything.

Its hard to imagine exactly how he managed to do that given that Hit and the pride troopers exist. I'm also at the point where I feel like the angels don’t really do anything, if someone wiping out every being in the multiverse doesn’t constitute as sufficient conditions for them to get involved then why do they even exist? They’re just strong for no reason

Toppo probably replaced Belmod as the new Destroyer of his universe 20 years into the future and died with his Supreme Kai. Toppo had already shown such mastery of the Destroyer power, I seriously doubt he had much training left and Belmod was very close to retiring anyway.

As for the Angels, we know that they become "inactive" when their Destroyer God dies. Since they are "inactive", they cannot "act" against Black and Zamasu.

This is why I say that Zamasu is the most underrated and under-appreciated villain in Dragon Ball. He literally outplayed all the deities in the Cosmos, by swiftly killing the Supreme Kais before anyone could do anything about it, and setting off a chain reaction that got rid of the Destroyers and Angels too.

Too bad he didn't account for Zeno. But then again, it's not like Zeno was doing anything to stop him.

But still Grand Priest can’t do anything?

I wondered this myself and the only logical explanation I could come up with is that he gets rendered inactive if all his children do.

[SupremeKai25]

But still Grand Priest can’t do anything?

Why would he care to do anything? We're talking about the guy who had no problem with Zeno erasing everything over a selfish wish. He doesn't care about Zamasu's actions because he and Zeno were going to do the same in literally the next arc. (at least Zamasu left the planets semi-intact)

[Freezer94]

I'm personally of the opinion that pressing the magic button that was introduced chapters earlier to just undo everything was kind of the perfect ending to the arc. It's very much Toriyama's sense of humour to just undercut the seriousness with this.

There's no way they could defeat an infinite army of Zamas (or him being the sky or whatever from the anime) so we get the tension pushed all the way to edge only for the rug to be pulled out, and the button's introduction at the beginning of the arc is the Chekhov's gun that not only wrapped up this arc wonderfully but it naturally set the stage for the next arc. I hear a lot of people complain that besides Moro and Granolah the arcs don't tie in together but I'd argue this does the same thing too.

[The Monkey King]

It's very much Toriyama's sense of humour to just undercut the seriousness with this.

The problem is no one laughed at the joke... it was a horrible "gag" if you could even call it that.

Audiences don't like having the rug pulled out from under them if it's not executed well.

Excusing bad writing which essentially rendered the whole arc pointless by dubbing it "a masterful Toriyama-gag (TM)" sounds desperate.

Seriously did you laugh when Trunks' timeline got erased? It wasn't even framed as a gag, it just kinda happened.

Even saying it linked to the ToP, the promise of Zeno's power having permanent consequences didn't even come to fruition. No universes were permanently erased, only Trunks' timeline... now we have no Zenos, what does that add to Dragon Ball?

Calling the Zeno button a chekov's gun is fair enough, but in this case the gun backfired horribly

[Freezer94]

Excusing bad writing which essentially rendered the whole arc pointless by dubbing it "a masterful Toriyama-gag (TM)" sounds desperate.

Seriously did you laugh when Trunks' timeline got erased? It wasn't even framed as a gag, it just kinda happened.

I wouldn't call it bad writing, it's all subjective and I personally found it enjoyable, you're free to not like it but you don't have to be a jerk about it.

And no I didn't laugh when Trunks' timeline was erased but that was basically presented as an already dead world, no one was really left and there were no Dragon Balls to magically fix everything. So erasing the overall threat that was powerful enough to destroy the multiverse seemed like a sound idea, and Trunks went off to basically get a well deserved happy ending.

[SupremeKai25]

Excusing bad writing which essentially rendered the whole arc pointless by dubbing it "a masterful Toriyama-gag (TM)" sounds desperate.

Seriously did you laugh when Trunks' timeline got erased? It wasn't even framed as a gag, it just kinda happened.

I wouldn't call it bad writing, it's all subjective and I personally found it enjoyable, you're free to not like it but you don't have to be a jerk about it.

And no I didn't laugh when Trunks' timeline was erased but that was basically presented as an already dead world, no one was really left and there were no Dragon Balls to magically fix everything. So erasing the overall threat that was powerful enough to destroy the multiverse seemed like a sound idea, and Trunks went off to basically get a well deserved happy ending.

That's what I'm saying, finally someone else makes this point! Idk why no one else ever brings this up.

The vast majority of humanity was wiped out when Black first arrived to Earth, one year before Trunks made his trip to the past. Let's be generous and assume that those 30 or so people hiding underneath the subway survive the conflict (in the manga they are killed by Black and Zamasu anyway).

So it's just a few dozen survivors amidst the wreckage of a ruined world. How the hell are they going to rebuild anything???

That timeline was lost, a hopeless cause, from the very beginning of the arc.

Someone explain how 30 people can rebuild this, lol!

[super michael]

With years of hard work, yes the mortals could repair their planet. On planet earth it isn't like the planet is in danger from exploding.

Let say there are 30 humans that survived, once Goku Black and Zamasu or Merged Zamasu are gone. That doesn't mean the humans will go extinct. Even if the number was 2, that still wouldn't mean extinction for the humans.

If there is one or more surviving Dragon Clan Namekian, they can always create a new set of Dragon Balls, which will take time if it is from scratch. If they have a model ready like Dende, using Kami model, then it is instant.


So no the future time line wasn't a dead world. Plus they could always recruit new GoD and replace the dead ones.


Future Bulma managed to make a time machine, which is a impossible task. If that is possible, then anything is possible.

[nineko]

Even if the number was 2, that still wouldn't mean extinction for the humans.

That depends on the humans. Unless they have access to some advanced tech, I doubt two males or two females would be able to procreate in the wild.

[super michael]

Even if the number was 2, that still wouldn't mean extinction for the humans.

That depends on the humans. Unless they have access to some advanced tech, I doubt two males or two females would be able to procreate in the wild.

I can imagine Trunks and Mai would have the highest chance to survive. That would mean the humans wouldn't go extinct. If there are more human that survive, even better.

[Kamiccolo9]

Even if the number was 2, that still wouldn't mean extinction for the humans.

That depends on the humans. Unless they have access to some advanced tech, I doubt two males or two females would be able to procreate in the wild.

I can imagine Trunks and Mai would have the highest chance to survive. That would mean the humans wouldn't go extinct. If there are more human that survive, even better.

You can't repopulate a species with just 30 people. There isn't enough genetic diversity. Eventually, you'd end up with a bunch of sterile, broken humans unable to reproduce after too much inbreeding.

[Hulk10]

Zeno erasing the timeline is overkill only in the manga. In the anime is an outright necessity.

I definitely prefer the Anime rendition of Infinite Zamasu over the Manga. Anime Infinite Zamasu actually looks like an existential threat, an unprecedented threat, while Manga Infinite Zamasu is just Metal Cooler.







Is it safe to say that New Namek was destroyed at this point?

It makes perfect sense to hit the reset button and start over after that.

Didn't the Zamasus say they already eliminated all mortals from U7 except from the ones on Earth? The Namekians should be gone.

And yeah, the anime version of Infinite Zamasu is fantastic. I love the fact that even Whis was getting scared by him and he never gets scared by Zeno unlike his manga version. God that version sucks.

Yeah the anime one was WAAAAY SCARIER than the Manga one.

[taikufuru]

I think that after episode 58, the writers started to get confused with the story that was being told.

Why two trips through time? Why make Goku learn Mafuba, let the vase break, Trunks fix it with glue and apply the technique by watching a very convenient video where Piccolo shows (to whom? Goku was already training) how the technique works. All this so that we can find out that Goku ended up forgetting the seal anyway. The manga did a more direct and better job, even with the same outcome, where Zamasu ends up free.

As for the climax, I would have preferred a happy ending. I think Trunks deserved it. He is one of the few characters who understands how bad the world can be and has always taken threats seriously.

However, if you wanted a sadder ending, go for it. Just don't try to treat it as a victory, because that's how the characters deal with everything being destroyed (with the exception of Trunks himself) and it was a sudden change in tone. Also, don't try to "cheat" with a fake happy ending, where Trunks and Mai go to the timeline almost identical to theirs. Have him stay in the present timeline, along with the people he already has a bond with and everyone can regret the situation. But the series wasn't willing to do that, because from the moment the next arc begins, this story will no longer be mentioned and the series needs to maintain the happy and fun tone.

[Jord]

Damn, I keep thinking back to how cool that Genki sword is. I wish the production team had had more time for this arc, because that shit could hit so hard if the staff weren't constantly trying to do things on zero time and resources.

I really think that this arc would work best as a 2.5 hour film remake. It's a shame that a kids movie like this would likely never get to be that long, though.

Now that is a good idea. It could have been an excellent and exciting movie. Trim out most of the BS and write an ending leading to that Genki sword moment. To me, the dramatic finish in FighterZ looked so amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBSjsnn ... aW5pc2g%3D

The problem with Super is that it seems to lose focus a lot and they throw a lot of stuff in that doesn't always stick. I think that the editors in DBZ's run made a huge difference and when working on Super, it feels like people wouldn't dare to push back on Toriyama. Look, I like Vegetto but he really didn't add much to Super. I know Toyotaro came up with that, but Toriyama did approve it.
A leaner story would be way better, like the movie format you suggested.

Battle of Gods was entertaining and well written. After that it crashed and burned with the crap that is Resurrection F, which may have been written worse than the lackluster original DBZ movies.

[SupremeKai25]

The Future Trunks saga would make for a trash movie. Dragon Ball movies are just mindless, brute fighting. The Future Trunks saga contains too many plot twists, deep scenes, and character development to be a movie.

[super michael]

Goku was annoying in Goku Black Saga, he was a pest to Zamasu and he was forgetful. Goku didn't bother to double check, to see if he had everything.

Goku has never forgotten senzu beans, yet he forgot that in Goku Black Saga. Goku even believes senzu beans gives immortality, such a dumb thing to say. Then when Master Roshi goes into his house to get the talisman, Goku decides to leave without getting it. Then Goku leaves the time machine, without getting the urn.
Goku had to call Zeno to defeat Zamasu, because he couldn't stop forgetting things. However by doing that, it got Future Trunks time line erased.

Goku even refused to go beyond SSJ2 against Goku Black, just because Goku Black refused to use his full power. There was no reason to not go beyond SSJ2.
In the Boo Saga Goku had a good reason not to use SSJ3, since it was unknown how much time it would drain from him being able to stay on earth. Therefore Goku would only use it as a emergency.

[JulieYBM]

Damn, I keep thinking back to how cool that Genki sword is. I wish the production team had had more time for this arc, because that shit could hit so hard if the staff weren't constantly trying to do things on zero time and resources.

I really think that this arc would work best as a 2.5 hour film remake. It's a shame that a kids movie like this would likely never get to be that long, though.

Now that is a good idea. It could have been an excellent and exciting movie. Trim out most of the BS and write an ending leading to that Genki sword moment. To me, the dramatic finish in FighterZ looked so amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBSjsnn ... aW5pc2g%3D

The problem with Super is that it seems to lose focus a lot and they throw a lot of stuff in that doesn't always stick. I think that the editors in DBZ's run made a huge difference and when working on Super, it feels like people wouldn't dare to push back on Toriyama. Look, I like Vegetto but he really didn't add much to Super. I know Toyotaro came up with that, but Toriyama did approve it.
A leaner story would be way better, like the movie format you suggested.

Battle of Gods was entertaining and well written. After that it crashed and burned with the crap that is Resurrection F, which may have been written worse than the lackluster original DBZ movies.

Yeah, the movie format would have allowed for tighter plotting that kept the story way more suspenseful and had less back-and-forth time travel shit. Hell, it basically opens like a movie. Future Trunks running from Gokuu Black in the fiery streets of his future before escaping to the past is peak Opening Five Minutes of a movie before transitioning into the opening credits.

[GokuHater]

The Future Trunks saga would make for a trash movie. Dragon Ball movies are just mindless, brute fighting. The Future Trunks saga contains too many plot twists, deep scenes, and character development to be a movie.

Lol.
Apart from the fact I don't see anything in Zamasu arc that much deep or well developed (I do however enjoy Vegeta giving people food or Goku freaking out over Chi Chi and Goten), I don't agree this wouldn't a good movie make.

Just because majority of DB movies are dumb, plotless action dumps doesn't mean everything with word Dragon Ball movie on it is.
Movie 13 had a lot of action but also some sweet interactions with real emotions
BoG while not having much character development for a majority of the time was fun and very quirky
Broly for the second part was one big action scene but the first part actually had some nice character development and story beats

I feel Zamasu arc on a movie format would be a lot more liked. If they focused on the real interesting staff, Zamasu, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks journey and threw away everything that didn't have a purpose or was just thrown in in sake of being thrown in.

[nineko]

You see, that's more or less what some people (including me) are saying about Daima, I wonder if that's a sign that episodic shows are no longer the future? Hell, I get annoyed even by those nonsensical "part 1 / part 2" movies such as Harry Potter, Mission Impossible, the Fast and the Furious, the Avengers... I made a similar complaint on another forum just a few hours ago, the action should be packed into one easily consumable product, cliffhangers are a big no in my book. On one hand I understand that companies need to dilute things as much as possible to maximize their income, but...

[GokuHater]

You see, that's more or less what some people (including me) are saying about Daima, I wonder if that's a sign that episodic shows are no longer the future? Hell, I get annoyed even by those nonsensical "part 1 / part 2" movies such as Harry Potter, Mission Impossible, the Fast and the Furious, the Avengers... I made a similar complaint on another forum just a few hours ago, the action should be packed into one easily consumable product, cliffhangers are a big no in my book. On one hand I understand that companies need to dilute things as much as possible to maximize their income, but...

I think that's exactly the problem. We need the show to last so it gives moneys. Off course a show is also much cheaper to make than a movie...

I think episodic shows aren't going nowhere and when done right are just as, if not more, exciting and interesting as a movie but the problem with DB is ... I feel they cannot pace it properly. This was also a problem with DBZ mind you but back then we didn't really care that much.

[SupremeKai25]

The Future Trunks saga would make for a trash movie. Dragon Ball movies are just mindless, brute fighting. The Future Trunks saga contains too many plot twists, deep scenes, and character development to be a movie.

Lol.

What's so funny?

Apart from the fact I don't see anything in Zamasu arc that much deep or well developed

- The interactions between Future Trunks and his past self and Gohan;

- The interactions and philosophical debates between Zamasu and Gowasu;

- The plot twists involving time travel and time paradox;

- The interactions between the main protagonists and the Future Earth survivors;

- All the strategic retreats and back and forths.

- All the funny conversations between Black and Zamasu, etc. etc.

Turning that arc into a movie would only worsen the story and result in deep and intriguing scenes like the philosophical debates between Zamasu and Gowasu getting removed just to focus on mindless brute fight.

Just because majority of DB movies are dumb, plotless action dumps doesn't mean everything with word Dragon Ball movie on it is.

No, it doesn't, but I don't like the track record, and the arc works better in a serialized form anyway.

Since Zamasu is the only villain in the entire history of the franchise who starts out as good and slowly descends into madness, the arc lends itself quite well to a serialized form.