Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 19 - Official Discussion Thread

[Yuji]

I do like also Vegeta's characterization so far. The Bulma stuff is hilarious on its own, but the fact he doesn’t gloat when going SS3, nor does he seethe at Goku achieving yet another form, really speaks to the fact this Vegeta is more at peace with himself and his role. Maybe it also speaks to the idea that Daima portrayals are generally bland and milquetoast, but I'm a fan of this Vegeta - it's reminiscent of his 2008 special portrayal, too. Calmer, more mature, not as animated or flanderized.

[sangofe]

Off topic, but... WTF, Toei has copyright claimed Ajay's animation breakdown, jeez.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Off topic, but... WTF, Toei has copyright claimed Ajay's animation breakdown, jeez.

That sucks, hopefully he gets his videos back even if it takes time.

Using footage in your videos is fair use if it's for educational or analytical purposes, as is the case with Ajay's animation breakdowns.

[Vegard Aune]

Using footage in your videos is fair use if it's for educational or analytical purposes, as is the case with Ajay's animation breakdowns.

Problem is the stipulation of Fair Use literally does not exist in Japan. And Toei is a Japanese company. It's the same reason why TotallyNotMark's channel nearly got obliterated a few years back. He was able to eventually resolve it by implementing a regional restriction that blocked his channel in Japan specifically, but for some reason this option isn't available to the average user despite the fact that I really see no way having this as an option would harm YouTube's bottom line. In fact it might save them a lot of legal trouble in situations exactly like this, where something is legal in some parts of the world but not others.

[Noah]

Super retold both Battle of Gods and Ressurection F. Those stories from movies not only happened and are referenced continuously in Super, but Toriyama himself specifically requested both BOG and ROF be retold in Super. If you're going to ignore Super, you would then have to pretty much ignore every modern Dragon Ball story starting with Battle Of Gods and ending with Superhero because, for all intents and purposes, it all took place in one continuity.

Huh? Is there a source on that? Cuz I always assumed that was Toei decision to give time to Toriyama to produce material for the actual new arc(s) at time.

I agree with this entire post and I feel like the concept of canonical should be disregarded completely when talking about this franchise. You have a complete story in Dragon Ball Chapters 1 to 519 and everything else is an adaptation.

My thoughts exactly.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Super retold both Battle of Gods and Ressurection F. Those stories from movies not only happened and are referenced continuously in Super, but Toriyama himself specifically requested both BOG and ROF be retold in Super. If you're going to ignore Super, you would then have to pretty much ignore every modern Dragon Ball story starting with Battle Of Gods and ending with Superhero because, for all intents and purposes, it all took place in one continuity.

Huh? Is there a source on that? Cuz I always assumed that was Toei decision to give time to Toriyama to produce material for the actual new arc(s) at time.

Yes, the Spanish website Misión Tokyo shared a Q&A and follow-up interview with Kimitoshi Chioka (Dragon Ball Super's first series director) and Hiroyuki Sakurada (second producer on Dragon Ball Super) from the Salón del Manga convention in Barcelona in 2017.

They explain that incorporating the theatrical films Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ into the new television series was Toriyama’s idea, and was part of introducing the characters Beerus and Whis, who the producers deemed essential to the story, to children who may not have already seen the movies.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I do like also Vegeta's characterization so far. The fact he doesn’t gloat when going SS3, nor does he seethe at Goku achieving yet another form, really speaks to the fact this Vegeta is more at peace with himself and his role.

Daima's Vegeta is a combination of what GT and Super got right with him. He continued his training like he did in Super, unlike in GT where he made no gains in 15 years. His personality matured like it did in GT, unlike in Super where he regressed to his Cell arc self. It took 30 years, but we finally got a post-Buu arc Vegeta that makes sense.

Off topic, but... WTF, Toei has copyright claimed Ajay's animation breakdown, jeez.

Toei is living in the middle ages; they have no idea how good all the fan discussions are for their projects.

Using footage in your videos is fair use if it's for educational or analytical purposes, as is the case with Ajay's animation breakdowns.

Although this is true, I'd still never use any company's footage if I was making videos about them. Look at all Totally Not Mark had to go through a few years ago. It may indeed be fair use, the problem is that Youtube seems to not care.

[TKA]

I do like also Vegeta's characterization so far.

Vegeta’s character is often misunderstood as being just Goku and being a fight pervert.

That’s not Vegeta.

Goku is driven to be better tomorrow than he was yesterday. If Goku loses a fight, as long as he gave it his all, he’s okay. That’s not Vegeta. Vegeta is driven by a desire to be the best in whatever room he’s in. If Vegeta loses, it wounds him deeply because it means someone is better than him.

The development he undergoes at the end of the Buu arc was coming to grips with the fact that he wasn’t entitled to being the best just because [of his heritage, race, and the fact that he’s Vegeta]. Which is why in the stories set after the Buu arc, he’s competing with Goku, because when he said Kakarot is Number 1, implicit in that is “… right now”. I’ve seen so many fans misunderstand that as him saying “You’re better than me forever,” so they see him trying to compete as regression.

There’s a reason Toriyama amended the end of the manga to have Vegeta saying he’ll still surpass him.

[Yuji]

I do like also Vegeta's characterization so far.

Vegeta’s character is often misunderstood as being just Goku and being a fight pervert.

That’s not Vegeta.

Goku is driven to be better tomorrow than he was yesterday. If Goku loses a fight, as long as he gave it his all, he’s okay. That’s not Vegeta. Vegeta is driven by a desire to be the best in whatever room he’s in. If Vegeta loses, it wounds him deeply because it means someone is better than him.

The development he undergoes at the end of the Buu arc was coming to grips with the fact that he wasn’t entitled to being the best just because [of his heritage, race, and the fact that he’s Vegeta]. Which is why in the stories set after the Buu arc, he’s competing with Goku, because when he said Kakarot is Number 1, implicit in that is “… right now”. I’ve seen so many fans misunderstand that as him saying “You’re better than me forever,” so they see him trying to compete as regression.

There’s a reason Toriyama amended the end of the manga to have Vegeta saying he’ll still surpass him.

I don't believe that Vegeta still striving to be better than Goku in Super is regression necessarily. I believe his constant standoff-ish attitude and over-exaggerated declarations of superiority and pride are flanderizing him a bit and no longer line him up with how you'd expect a post-Boo Vegeta to carry himself. See: this episode, and Daima in general, where instead he's a lot calmer, happy in his corner, and less eager to prove anything to anyone, instead only choosing to fight to prove his strength to himself, and not being emotionally unstable from Goku once again surpassing him. It's a far cry from DBS Vegeta's seething rage at Goku pulling out the Kaioken.

But I admit my criticisms of modern Vegeta's characterization are best applicable to the anime version. The manga in general does a good job with the character, though I also believe the underlying issue that he's still too combative and aggressive unnecessarily is also present.

[Mr Baggins]

I mentioned this back in the episode 12 thread, but it's also why I think Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta is such a great little full-circle capstone to his arc throughout Toriyama's manga. It's the form that made him come to grips with the fact that he's not #1, and is the same form he (ironically) achieves after doing so.

Daima's legacy cast has a lot of moments best analyzed in context of the original series, rather than purely in isolation.

[TKA]

But I admit my criticisms of modern Vegeta's characterization are best applicable to the anime version. The manga in general does a good job with the character, though I also believe the underlying issue that he's still too combative and aggressive unnecessarily is also present.

The Super anime isn’t for me or fans who enjoy the series in the way that I do. It has a much broader audience it has to cater to. I don’t look to it for writing, and found that it’s better enjoyed in that way.

The Toyotaro manga is what I’m always talking about when I speak of Vegeta’s post-series development, along with the Toriyama movies.

Vegeta will never be a chill dude, however. He still wants to be the best in the room, but now it’s not out of a sense of entitlement or racial superiority. He’s very much at peace now (example: choosing to take a bath with his wife instead of making himself suffer trying to beat Gomah; that’s something no earlier version of Vegeta would do) but he’s still Vegeta.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I don't believe that Vegeta still striving to be better than Goku in Super is regression necessarily. I believe his constant standoff-ish attitude and over-exaggerated declarations of superiority and pride are flanderizing him a bit and no longer line him up with how you'd expect a post-Boo Vegeta to carry himself. See: this episode, and Daima in general, where instead he's a lot calmer, happy in his corner, and less eager to prove anything to anyone, instead only choosing to fight to prove his strength to himself, and not being emotionally unstable from Goku once again surpassing him.

Daima's Vegeta basically combined the aspects Super and GT got right about his character, while leaving behind what they got wrong.

I think Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta is such a great little full-circle capstone to his arc throughout Toriyama's manga. It's the form that made him come to grips with the fact that he's not #1, and is the same form he (ironically) achieves after doing so.

I agree 100%. I never understood why he didn't get the form in GT, as his characterization there was very well handled.

Daima's legacy cast has a lot of moments best analyzed in context of the original series, rather than purely in isolation.

This is an interesting way of looking at things.

[TheRed259]

Piccolo could have hit Gomah while Goku was showing off his various Super Saiyan forms, right?

Although maybe that way we couldn't have seen Goku using SSJ3 or SSJ4 as an adult in Daima so...

[nineko]

You know, since turning people into children does make them weaker (as recently confirmed by some dialogues), and it does work on powerful unwilling targets since it's considered a good wish, Glorio could have simply asked Red Porunga to turn Gomah in a literal infant, but I can see how multiple Saiyans beating up a toddler would be frowned upon. Still, it's yet another tactical error not unlike many other similar ones. At that point, once all is saved in the demon realm and they want to be adults again, they can either wait and fight the tamagamis again, or they can simply go back to the regular universe and teleport to Namek (or even talk to the Namekians via telepathy) and use those balls.

Still, I get the feeling that they're going to use the dragon balls in the demon realm one more time, not sure for what, but I think they'll ask Neva to help them get one more wish, maybe to do something good for the citizens.

[SupremeKai25]

You know, since turning people into children does make them weaker (as recently confirmed by some dialogues), and it does work on powerful unwilling targets since it's considered a good wish, Glorio could have simply asked Red Porunga to turn Gomah in a literal infant, but I can see how multiple Saiyans beating up a toddler would be frowned upon. Still, it's yet another tactical error not unlike many other similar ones. At that point, once all is saved in the demon realm and they want to be adults again, they can either wait and fight the tamagamis again, or they can simply go back to the regular universe and teleport to Namek (or even talk to the Namekians via telepathy) and use those balls.

Still, I get the feeling that they're going to use the dragon balls in the demon realm one more time, not sure for what, but I think they'll ask Neva to help them get one more wish, maybe to do something good for the citizens.

I'm missing how this is any different than the Saiyans breaking the earrings instead of fusing and whooping Kid Buu's butt.

The protagonists itch for a good fight. Ofc they're going to use the Dragon Balls to wish an adult body so that they can go all out against the kaijuu/monster, instead of wishing for the monster to turn back into a gremlin and remove all the fun.

These protagonists (Glorio included) are martial artists who do heroic things. Not heroes. And while Glorio might not be a Saiyan, he follows the same mantra which is Toriyama's Dragon Ball.

[nineko]

I know, and as I said, I understand the motivations and all, that's not the point I was trying to make. I wasn't saying that they should have done that, I merely pointed out yet another tactical error. You mentioned the potara episode, but there are dozens of those instances throughout all the series, like in the beginning of the Android arcs. That's indeed what makes dragon ball dragon ball.

It's like people saying that Voldemort should have killed Harry Potter in the graveyard in the goblet of fire movie when he had the chance, of course he should have done that, but stories don't work in that way. Many books and many movies would be much shorter if the characters behaved rationally.

I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

[Majin Buu]

I'm okay with some level of ambiguity kept about Glorio's backstory and his connection to Arinsu. But it was essential to establish, if not with ham-handed flashbacks then on some emotional level, why he's so loyal to her. A token line that she somehow saved or uplifted him from squalor in the Third Demon World (after he's already made the difficult decision) doesn't quite cut it. Again, emotionally, it's hard to buy that she offers something so much better than Goku, Nahare and Panzy that he would be seriously torn up about who to make a wish for.

Before I begin: Thank you for the shout out in the last thread. With many here having turned on this show that I've personally been enjoying, knowing that my reactions are valued has kept me going when the negativity got demoralizing enough to make me consider quitting since the show was increasingly becoming not fun to talk about.

Now:

I can see how that line wouldn't cut it looking at it in a vacuum.

But the show has spent a lot of time establishing that life in The Third Demon World is hard, brutal even, and I think that worldbuilding goes a long way towards establishing Glorio's motivations: He wanted to escape that hard life like anyone would and is therefore grateful to Arinsu for being his ticket out of that.

Could some monologue from him prompted by some interaction with another character have also gotten that across and contributed to his warming up to the group? Sure, but he's been established to be a humorless guy whose M.O. is keeping everything close to his chest, so having to rely on the occasional prompted smile or compliment to communicate his defrosting is in line with that characterization (And as someone who in real life is also a quiet guy that keeps a lot of stuff close to his chest and can seem humorless to strangers, his behavior feels real to me. People like this don't outwardly express their feelings the way other folks would like them to- if they end up expressing them at all).

[Vegeta th3 4th]

With many here having turned on this show that I've personally been enjoying, knowing that my reactions are valued has kept me going when the negativity got demoralizing enough to make me consider quitting since the show was increasingly becoming not fun to talk about.

Daima will greatly benefit from being watched as a completed product, as the slower parts won't be noticeable when combined with the faster paced, more action heavy ones. Episode 13 seems to be the ones most have an issue with, however, on rewatches it won't stand out as much when it's being watched alongside episode 12. I wait for any anime I'm interested in to finish an entire arc before I watch it, as many of their flaws tend to not be as glaring when consumed as a whole. I cannot imagine watching a show like One Piece week to week.

[Basaku]

Super retold both Battle of Gods and Ressurection F. Those stories from movies not only happened and are referenced continuously in Super, but Toriyama himself specifically requested both BOG and ROF be retold in Super. If you're going to ignore Super, you would then have to pretty much ignore every modern Dragon Ball story starting with Battle Of Gods and ending with Superhero because, for all intents and purposes, it all took place in one continuity.

Huh? Is there a source on that? Cuz I always assumed that was Toei decision to give time to Toriyama to produce material for the actual new arc(s) at time.

Yes, the Spanish website Misión Tokyo shared a Q&A and follow-up interview with Kimitoshi Chioka (Dragon Ball Super's first series director) and Hiroyuki Sakurada (second producer on Dragon Ball Super) from the Salón del Manga convention in Barcelona in 2017.

They explain that incorporating the theatrical films Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ into the new television series was Toriyama’s idea, and was part of introducing the characters Beerus and Whis, who the producers deemed essential to the story, to children who may not have already seen the movies.

Not only it was right from the storytelling perspective but more importantly - it avoided fragmenting and confusing the audience. This is especially crucial in the age of streaming where different movies/shows may be licensed by different companies and end up on different platforms alltogether. And even if they're all on 1, you're still confusing the general audience by asking them to jump back and forth between movie and anime episodes.

By all purpouses, retelling BOG and ROF was the right decision, it's only unfortunate how badly it was executed animation wise.

But I expect Broly and SuperHero to get retold in 2uper anime too

[Vegeta th3 4th]

By all purpouses, retelling BOG and ROF was the right decision, it's only unfortunate how badly it was executed animation wise.

It wasn't just the production quality, it was the decision to extend each movie to 14 and 12 episodes each. BOG was 105 minutes long, the equivalent of 5 episodes. RF was 95 minutes long, also close to 5 episodes. Why did they need to be triple and double their original length ?