Unpopular DB opinions

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I wish Gohan would've kept his Saiyaman outfit; I prefer that over him copying what Goku and Piccolo wear.

[MasenkoHA]

I wish Gohan would've kept his Saiyaman outfit; I prefer that over him copying what Goku and Piccolo wear.

You'll be excited to know he still wears it in Dragon Ball Super

Piccolo was the first person to train Gohan & he was 1 of Gohan's trainers in the 3-year timeskip between Goku coming back to Earth & the Androids. Then, he helped him train for the Tournament of Power. He has a personal relationship with Gohan. How is them continuing to train together "forced"?

While I am sympathetic to the idea more could have been done, the Boo saga almost entirely forgets Gohan and Piccolo's bond, the Piccolo and Gohan friendship will alway be my favorite thing in Dragon Ball

Agreed and that student / mentor bond doesn't really die unless there's a falling out. It's not something that needs to maintain. Gohan wearing Piccolo's outfit links him to his roots regardless of how much time has past. Much like friends, no matter how much time has past, people typically pick up right where they left off. And as you pointed out, Gohan was never part of the Kamesennin school. The closes he gets is when Goku trains him. Gohan using some of Goku's techniques and wearing Piccolo's outfit feels like the perfect mix of Gohan's two mentors.

I do enjoy things like Gohan asking Piccolo to train him again for the ToP and Piccolo calling out Gohan's tendency to get one upped by his opponents when he lets his power go to his head

[Scsigs]

Gohan and Piccolo barely interact after the Namek arc and even then, their relationship doesn't really have much to it other than replaying the greatest hits of "remember that time Gohan wore Piccolo's dougi as a kid?" It's a played-out relationship that feels indicative of Gohan's past, rather than his future, and I kind of just have to roll my eyes at how Toyotarou's comic and Super Hero try to relive the glory days with that dougi they keep putting him back in.

I disagree. In-universe, they interact more than I think you remember & their relationship is deeper than I also think you remember.
On Earth, they train to fight the Saiyans, which softens Piccolo into a better, more compassionate person. He sacrifices himself for Gohan by protecting him from Nappa's Bomber DX attack & dying for him. He then trains with King Kai for a bit before coming to Namek to help him, Krillin, Vegeta, & Goku out when dealing with Freeza.
He then helps Goku & Gohan train for the Androids. A total of 3.5-4 years, Gohan & Piccolo spend interacting pretty much every day. I have to think that Piccolo was living with Goku, Chichi, & Gohan in that time, even if he wasn't living in their house. Maybe he slept outside, or made his own makeshift hut. We don't know. However, 3 years alone interacting every day, you're gonna form some kind of connection to the other person & Piccolo & Gohan already had a connection due to their previous training. It's also how you can buy that he & Goku became friends because before then, you can't really say they are.
So, it's entirely believable that Gohan would wanna honor Piccolo later with a new Gi like his. It's like how he wanted to honor his father before he fights Buu with having Kibito give him a copy of Goku's Gi. It's also why every time that Gohan wants to train to get his previous strength & fighting prowess back that it's Piccolo who helps him & why he & Videl have made Piccolo an honorary uncle of Pan's. You only do that with people who aren't related to you when you're great friends with them.
Super Hero, I don't think it's bad that he's back in Piccolo's Gi. Gohan goes back & forth between the one that's a copy of his dad's & the one Piccolo made for him. Maybe it'd be better if he made his own, but it's not like that's really that forced.

While I am sympathetic to the idea more could have been done, the Boo saga almost entirely forgets Gohan and Piccolo's bond, the Piccolo and Gohan friendship will always be my favorite thing in Dragon Ball

To a degree, I can see that, but at the same time, Gohan didn't really need Piccolo to train to get back into fighting shape since he just thought they were gonna fight in a regular tournament, plus he wanted to make sure Goten was ready & then had to teach Videl to fly. And then when he's getting the power-up on the Kai planet, Piccolo's dealing with getting Goten & Trunks ready to fight Buu with the Fusion dance. I don't see what Toriyama could've done differently that both makes sense narratively & in-universe, tbh. I think the moment where Piccolo recognizes that Gohan's become much stronger & come so far from when he was a kid is good enough. At least for me. It shows how far they've come.

Agreed and that student / mentor bond doesn't really die unless there's a falling out. It's not something that needs to maintain. Gohan wearing Piccolo's outfit links him to his roots regardless of how much time has past. Much like friends, no matter how much time has past, people typically pick up right where they left off. And as you pointed out, Gohan was never part of the Kamesennin school. The closest he gets is when Goku trains him. Gohan using some of Goku's techniques and wearing Piccolo's outfit feels like the perfect mix of Gohan's two mentors.

Exactly. I agree wholeheartedly.

[BernardoCairo]

I don’t think it’s 100% fair to say that Gohan and Piccolo barely interact after the Namek Arc. After training together for three years, they share a nice moment when Gohan asks for Piccolo's clothes after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time. Then, during the Cell Games, Piccolo is the only one who truly takes Gohan’s feelings into account and is willing to sacrifice himself for him. In the Buu Arc, they act more like old friends, with Gohan visiting Piccolo at the beginning of the story. Even then, Piccolo still pays a lot of attention to Gohan’s growth, especially when he’s the first to notice Ultimate when Gohan returns to Earth. And in Super, of course, they interact a lot since Piccolo is back to being Gohan's mentor. From Fukatsu No F onward, they appear in pretty much every arc. Personally, I really enjoy their team-up in the Universe Survival and Moro arcs.

As for Gohan’s gi, I personally prefer him honoring his dad by wearing the orange one, but since he trained under Piccolo first, I’m fine with the purple gi. Goku had several masters after Roshi but never stopped wearing the orange gi, which I think tells a lot about the impact both Goku and Gohan's teachers had on their lives.

[tonysoprano300]

Idk how much I really bought into the idea that Gohan lets his power go to his head, I mean if thats true of Gohan then thats true of everyone outside of Future Trunks. I dont even know if Gohan even toyed around with Boo that much, that fight was very brief in the manga before he self destructed.

[Scsigs]

I don’t think it’s 100% fair to say that Gohan and Piccolo barely interact after the Namek Arc. After training together for three years, they share a nice moment when Gohan asks for Piccolo's clothes after leaving the Room of Spirit and Time. Then, during the Cell Games, Piccolo is the only one who truly takes Gohan’s feelings into account and is willing to sacrifice himself for him. In the Buu Arc, they act more like old friends, with Gohan visiting Piccolo at the beginning of the story. Even then, Piccolo still pays a lot of attention to Gohan’s growth, especially when he’s the first to notice Ultimate when Gohan returns to Earth. And in Super, of course, they interact a lot since Piccolo is back to being Gohan's mentor. From Fukatsu No F onward, they appear in pretty much every arc. Personally, I really enjoy their team-up in the Universe Survival and Moro arcs.

As for Gohan’s gi, I personally prefer him honoring his dad by wearing the orange one, but since he trained under Piccolo first, I’m fine with the purple gi. Goku had several masters after Roshi but never stopped wearing the orange gi, which I think tells a lot about the impact both Goku and Gohan's teachers had on their lives.

I agree with the first bit. Saying they never interact after Namek is genuinely patently false & completely forgets the training they did in the timeskip before the androids show up, which is just odd to do.

The second bit, though, is not exactly correct. Goku started out the series in his blue gi & had some slightly different clothes when he started training with Roshi. After that, yeah, he wears the orange gi, but changes what symbol he wears on the front & back of the shirt. After a while, though, he stops wearing any symbol whatsoever since he's become his own master & became a teacher himself. But also wore Whis' symbol on his gi after Whis drew it on it. First Roshi, then Kami & Popo, then King Kai, then none, then Whis'. And then he'll float between them depending on the character design the animators went with at the time, but mostly just wears the neutral one.

[JulieYBM]

Gohan and Piccolo barely interact after the Namek arc and even then, their relationship doesn't really have much to it other than replaying the greatest hits of "remember that time Gohan wore Piccolo's dougi as a kid?" It's a played-out relationship that feels indicative of Gohan's past, rather than his future, and I kind of just have to roll my eyes at how Toyotarou's comic and Super Hero try to relive the glory days with that dougi they keep putting him back in.

I disagree. In-universe, they interact more than I think you remember & their relationship is deeper than I also think you remember.
On Earth, they train to fight the Saiyans, which softens Piccolo into a better, more compassionate person. He sacrifices himself for Gohan by protecting him from Nappa's Bomber DX attack & dying for him. He then trains with King Kai for a bit before coming to Namek to help him, Krillin, Vegeta, & Goku out when dealing with Freeza.
He then helps Goku & Gohan train for the Androids. A total of 3.5-4 years, Gohan & Piccolo spend interacting pretty much every day. I have to think that Piccolo was living with Goku, Chichi, & Gohan in that time, even if he wasn't living in their house. Maybe he slept outside, or made his own makeshift hut. We don't know. However, 3 years alone interacting every day, you're gonna form some kind of connection to the other person & Piccolo & Gohan already had a connection due to their previous training. It's also how you can buy that he & Goku became friends because before then, you can't really say they are.
So, it's entirely believable that Gohan would wanna honor Piccolo later with a new Gi like his. It's like how he wanted to honor his father before he fights Buu with having Kibito give him a copy of Goku's Gi. It's also why every time that Gohan wants to train to get his previous strength & fighting prowess back that it's Piccolo who helps him & why he & Videl have made Piccolo an honorary uncle of Pan's. You only do that with people who aren't related to you when you're great friends with them.
Super Hero, I don't think it's bad that he's back in Piccolo's Gi. Gohan goes back & forth between the one that's a copy of his dad's & the one Piccolo made for him. Maybe it'd be better if he made his own, but it's not like that's really that forced.

I don't think those years count unless we see them or see their direct effect. I'm not disregarding that timeskips can work as a tool for helping with character relationships, but Gohan has so little presence from their point forward and increasingly little of it has to do with Piccolo that I'm not willing to fold in that timeskip stuff as just actively adding to their relationship. The audience is still leaning on interactions from the Saiyan and Namek arc as their primary crux for understanding the Gohan and Piccolo relationship. Meanwhile, Gohan has had more interactions with Gokuu and those are further built upon in the Super anime.

Shrug. I'm just not convinced.

[PhantomSaiyan]

The audience is still leaning on interactions from the Saiyan and Namek arc as their primary crux for understanding the Gohan and Piccolo relationship. Meanwhile, Gohan has had more interactions with Gokuu and those are further built upon in the Super anime.

Shrug. I'm just not convinced.

Considering that you're the only person in the fanbase who for some reason doesn't buy the Gohan Piccolo relationship, I don't think you should speak for what "The audience" is experiencing or supposed to experience since you're clearly in your own bubble here.

And even then, like other users have pointed out, that's just wrong, they keep having moments and interactions throughout the whole manga. And I'll add, even if they didn't and you were right and they did stop interacting in the Namek arc, their relationship still makes sense. Gohan basically turned Piccolo into a good guy, was his first ever friend. Piccolo was Gohan's first Master in his formative most important years of his life, the one who introduced him to the world of fighting, and in a manga like dragonball I think we can all agree that fighting and masters have huge importance.

That alone is enough to justify their relationship.

[Scsigs]

I don't think those years count unless we see them or see their direct effect. I'm not disregarding that timeskips can work as a tool for helping with character relationships, but Gohan has so little presence from their point forward and increasingly little of it has to do with Piccolo that I'm not willing to fold in that timeskip stuff as just actively adding to their relationship. The audience is still leaning on interactions from the Saiyan and Namek arc as their primary crux for understanding the Gohan and Piccolo relationship. Meanwhile, Gohan has had more interactions with Gokuu and those are further built upon in the Super anime.

Shrug. I'm just not convinced.

What are you talking about? The timeskips are part of the story. Even if we don't see what happens during them, we're given enough to go on that shows that they're close enough to form a bond. It's a bit disappointing, but discounting that time not seen on screen is weird.

[JulieYBM]

Oh, we're in the Unpopular Opinions thread. I don't think I've mentioned this one before, but I think that Piccolo being Pan's mentor is pretty lame. If you're going to try to mimick the Gohan-Piccolo dynamic in the Saiyan arc, then make Pan's mentor Cell somehow. There's some actual juiciness to play with there, especially if Pan stops Cell from enacting revenge on Gohan and killing him via the strength of their bond.

I do enjoy the Piccolo scenes in Super Hero, though. I wish the film had just been Piccolo and Pan defeating the Gammas and not used
repetitive Gohan stuff—or at the very least, used Videl instead.

The audience is still leaning on interactions from the Saiyan and Namek arc as their primary crux for understanding the Gohan and Piccolo relationship. Meanwhile, Gohan has had more interactions with Gokuu and those are further built upon in the Super anime.

Shrug. I'm just not convinced.

Considering that you're the only person in the fanbase who for some reason doesn't buy the Gohan Piccolo relationship, I don't think you should speak for what "The audience" is experiencing or supposed to experience since you're clearly in your own bubble here.

And even then, like other users have pointed out, that's just wrong, they keep having moments and interactions throughout the whole manga. And I'll add, even if they didn't and you were right and they did stop interacting in the Namek arc, their relationship still makes sense. Gohan basically turned Piccolo into a good guy, was his first ever friend. Piccolo was Gohan's first Master in his formative most important years of his life, the one who introduced him to the fighting world, and in a manga like dragonball I think we can all agree that fighting and masters have huge importance.

That alone is enough to justify their relationship.

I'm speaking to what the story is asking of the audience, which is, "hey remember how gohan was trained by piccolo in the saiyan arc and tried to revive him during the namek arc?" the relationship fades in any kind of prominence until the toyotarou manga and super hero decide to play on what is essentially just nostalgic memory from the Saiyan and namek—a major issue of modern media in general—and and oh look, literally nobody is saying anything new in each new post of this discussion.

i think it's a pretty lame way to shift gears, and i suspect that it's mostly being done to keep the on-going "Gokuu's a terrible person" shtick going, which i also find just a tiresome as "let's put gohan back into the piccolo dougi just like all those episodes and movies you 30 years ago!"

What are you talking about? The timeskips are part of the story. Even if we don't see what happens during them, we're given enough to go on that shows that they're close enough to form a bond. It's a bit disappointing, but discounting that time not seen on screen is weird.

I'm saying that when you do a timeskip, you actually need to see how said timeskip affects the characters relationships in the present and within actual scenes that are played out. We don't see this play out, which I do think is a fault of Toriyama as a writer and his style of trying to avoid overt displays of relationships. Gohan gets, what, one interaction with Piccolo where he saves him from Doctor Gero and then where he asks for a Piccolo outfit after emerging from the Room of Spirit and Time? Then later in the Majin Buu arc gets told his Great Saiyaman costume is lame by Piccolo? Those are three, extremely brief interactions that don't spur on Gohan's development or character arc at all, nor do they establish that the relationship between Gohan and Piccolo grew even more during the three years training with Gokuu. Meanwhile, Gohan's interactions with Gokuu do fulfil those requirements.

The latter half of the Artificial Human arc and the early half of the Majin Buu arc dealing with Gokuu training Gohan and then neglecting to understand him or communicate with him at all feeds more into Gohan's character arc as a whole. If anything, Super should have leaned into repairing that disconnect even heavier during the Tournament of Power.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I'm speaking to what the story is asking of the audience, which is, "hey remember how gohan was trained by piccolo in the saiyan arc and tried to revive him during the namek arc?" the relationship fades in any kind of prominence until the toyotarou manga and super hero decide to play on what is essentially just nostalgic memory from the Saiyan and namek—a major issue of modern media in general—and and oh look, literally nobody is saying anything new in each new post of this discussion.

i think it's a pretty lame way to shift gears, and i suspect that it's mostly being done to keep the on-going "Gokuu's a terrible person" shtick going, which i also find just a tiresome as "let's put gohan back into the piccolo dougi just like all those episodes and movies you 30 years ago!"

Like I've said already, you're severely devaluing the importance of that saiyan saga training. It isn't just a nostalgic callback "hey remember that one time we did this thing" No, it's literally the most important and formative period of time for both of those characters, it should be no surprise they hold it so dear. In a story centered around fighting and martial arts, the sensei who introduces the disciple into the world of fighting is the most important figure of his life, Piccolo is to Gohan what Master Roshi is to Goku (case in point he also keeps wearing his gi out of respect). I don't understand why you keep downplaying how important this relationship is.

And again the relationship does NOT fade, multiple people have already pointed out to you how Piccolo and Gohan keep having moments throughout the original manga, you're simply choosing to ignore that.

We're going in circles already. Everything you've said in this reply I already addressed in the message you replied to.

Also, thinking that the Gohan Piccolo relationship is being kept alive to make goku look like a terrible person is just... a wild conclusion to arrive to, on par with some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories, idk where you got that from. Could it be that the reason Piccolo and Gohan keep being paired is because they're a fan favorite duo that had a well established and important bond, and consistent moments throughout the original run of the manga?

Also, Piccolo being a sensei to Pan works perfectly. He trained Gohan, he was a mentor for Goten and Trunks in the Buu saga, and now he's training Pan. It's clear that Piccolo is well suited to this role.

[MasenkoHA]

I do enjoy the Piccolo scenes in Super Hero, though. I wish the film had just been Piccolo and Pan defeating the Gammas and not used
repetitive Gohan stuff—or at the very least, used Videl instead.

That was Toriyama's original intention before being asked to make Gohan a major player and yeah it does seem the movie just repeats Gohan's arc in Tournament of Power.

Super Hero definitely would have been better if it was just Piccolo's movie instead of Piccolo's movie and then some weird apology tour for how Gohan was handled later on in the third act.

the relationship fades in any kind of prominence until the toyotarou manga

Eh it's never as prominent again as it was in the Saiyan/Namek arc where it's a key part of Gohan's character arc and Piccolo's redemption but it's still very much there in the Cell saga. Gohan wants to be trained by his dad and Piccolo. Gohan ask to wear Piccolo's outfit when he leaves the Room of Spirit and Time, Piccolo voices his concern to Goku that Gohan doesn't love fighting. It's just Toriyama's also focused on his father/son dynamics with Vegeta and Future Trunks and Goku and Gohan that there doesn't seem enough time to do more with Gohan and Piccolo. The Cell saga does beg for a lot of interpersonal relationship that Toriyama either felt he didn't have time for or wasn't interested in or didn't feel up to task for. Bulma and Vegeta's relationship should have gotten some kind of development. Krillin's attraction to 18 and her eventual reciprocation could have been handled better instead of him being down bad from a kiss and Toriyama leaving the 7 year time skip to fill in the blanks of "eventually 18 fell for Krillin too" Goku and Gohan's relationship was probably the best handled dynamic in the Cell saga and even then Toriyama kind of skims over "Goku realizes his son doesn't love fighting like he does"

Granted a lot of this is probably because Toriyama and Kondo just doesn't think their target audience is interested in this sort of thing .

[BernardoCairo]

The second bit, though, is not exactly correct. Goku started out the series in his blue gi & had some slightly different clothes when he started training with Roshi. After that, yeah, he wears the orange gi, but changes what symbol he wears on the front & back of the shirt. After a while, though, he stops wearing any symbol whatsoever since he's become his own master & became a teacher himself. But also wore Whis' symbol on his gi after Whis drew it on it. First Roshi, then Kami & Popo, then King Kai, then none, then Whis'. And then he'll float between them depending on the character design the animators went with at the time, but mostly just wears the neutral one.

He switches up the symbol every now and then, but the Gi itself pretty much stays the same. And honestly, that makes sense. Goku had some martial arts knowledge before meeting Roshi, but it was the Turtle School that really set him on the path to where he is now. It's not just about the training, but the mentality that comes with it. In fact, Kami Sama even congratulates Roshi for having trained such an exceptional martial artist, even after having trained Goku himself.

[tonysoprano300]

I'm speaking to what the story is asking of the audience, which is, "hey remember how gohan was trained by piccolo in the saiyan arc and tried to revive him during the namek arc?" the relationship fades in any kind of prominence until the toyotarou manga and super hero decide to play on what is essentially just nostalgic memory from the Saiyan and namek—a major issue of modern media in general—and and oh look, literally nobody is saying anything new in each new post of this discussion.

i think it's a pretty lame way to shift gears, and i suspect that it's mostly being done to keep the on-going "Gokuu's a terrible person" shtick going, which i also find just a tiresome as "let's put gohan back into the piccolo dougi just like all those episodes and movies you 30 years ago!"

Like I've said already, you're severely devaluing the importance of that saiyan saga training. It isn't just a nostalgic callback "hey remember that one time we did this thing" No, it's literally the most important and formative period of time for both of those characters, it should be no surprise they hold it so dear. In a story centered around fighting and martial arts, the sensei who introduces the disciple into the world of fighting is the most important figure of his life, Piccolo is to Gohan what Master Roshi is to Goku (case in point he also keeps wearing his gi out of respect). I don't understand why you keep downplaying how important this relationship is.

And again the relationship does NOT fade, multiple people have already pointed out to you how Piccolo and Gohan keep having moments throughout the original manga, you're simply choosing to ignore that.

We're going in circles already. Everything you've said in this reply I already addressed in the message you replied to.

Also, thinking that the Gohan Piccolo relationship is being kept alive to make goku look like a terrible person is just... a wild conclusion to arrive to, on par with some of the most bizarre conspiracy theories, idk where you got that from. Could it be that the reason Piccolo and Gohan keep being paired is because they're a fan favorite duo that had a well established and important bond, and consistent moments throughout the original run of the manga?

Also, Piccolo being a sensei to Pan works perfectly. He trained Gohan, he was a mentor for Goten and Trunks in the Buu saga, and now he's training Pan. It's clear that Piccolo is well suited to this role.

I think the point is more so that they should have continued to develop that dynamic/relationship on screen, Nobody can deny that these characters share a bond and that they still have moments every now and again but I wouldn't really call that development. Then again, the more I think about it, idk if Toriyama has ever really done that sort of thing. Ironically I think the closest thing to it is the relationship between Goku and Vegeta, that spanned from the Saiyan arc and was ultimately concluded in the Boo arc. Which I do think is partly why the DB fandom loves the Majin Vegeta stuff so much, because it's culmination of something that spanned all of "Z". Most of the other character relationship stuff is usually resolved in a single story arc.

I think there was room to do more with Gohan/Piccolo, stuff the Anime touched on that could have been expanded. Maybe thats just a me thing, I loved everything to do with saiyan arc relationship between those and consider some of those moments to be the pinnacle of the series, so of course Id have liked to see it continue.

[Vice]

I don't care what anyone says, this is Gohan's best drip and I don't know why it never stuck

[Scsigs]

I don't care what anyone says, this is Gohan's best drip and I don't know why it never stuck

"Never stuck"? He's been back & forth on it since the Buu Arc, what? He had it at the start of the Buu Arc, then it changed to the gi that's like his dad's because he wanted to honor him. Then in the Tournament of Power Arc, he went back to his dad's gi in the anime while in the manga, he apparently was wearing the one that resembles Piccolo's. Then, in Super Hero, he wears the Piccolo one again.

[Vice]

"Never stuck"? He's been back & forth on it since the Buu Arc, what? He had it at the start of the Buu Arc, then it changed to the gi that's like his dad's because he wanted to honor him. Then in the Tournament of Power Arc, he went back to his dad's gi in the anime while in the manga, he apparently was wearing the one that resembles Piccolo's. Then, in Super Hero, he wears the Piccolo one again.

Wore it once and then started wearing everyone else's shit, so... yeah, never stuck. Why are you listing all this shit like it contradicts what I said?

[Scsigs]

"Never stuck"? He's been back & forth on it since the Buu Arc, what? He had it at the start of the Buu Arc, then it changed to the gi that's like his dad's because he wanted to honor him. Then in the Tournament of Power Arc, he went back to his dad's gi in the anime while in the manga, he apparently was wearing the one that resembles Piccolo's. Then, in Super Hero, he wears the Piccolo one again.

Wore it once and then started wearing everyone else's shit, so... yeah, never stuck. Why are you listing all this shit like it contradicts what I said?

Because he literally wears it in the manga version of the Tournament of Power & in Super Hero? Did you not read what I wrote?

[Vice]

Because he literally wears it in the manga version of the Tournament of Power & in Super Hero? Did you not read what I wrote?

No he didn't, he wore Piccolo's stuff again

[PhantomSaiyan]

Because he literally wears it in the manga version of the Tournament of Power & in Super Hero? Did you not read what I wrote?

It's not exactly the same outfit. The early Buu saga one is Gohan's personalized version, the belt is different, it's red and loose, the shoes and the little white thing on top (idk what it's called) are different, it's the first outfit that's unique to him.

In the Manga ToP it's just Piccolo's exact outfit, and in Super Hero it's still Piccolo's outfit with the only difference being black wristbands, but the rest is 100% Piccolo's outfit.