Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by p-hyvo » Fri Mar 14, 2025 9:49 pm

Mr Perfect Cell wrote: Fri Mar 14, 2025 6:38 pm
Mr Perfect Cell wrote: Fri Feb 28, 2025 11:40 pm Power levels Z updated + 90% of Movies

Edit: I thought there was a edit feature on here? Maybe because I'm using my phone this time? Anyways made a little adjustment to the Fusion arc

Z Movies
Spoiler:
There are a bunch of errors, all of which blatantly bias driven
we can maybe discuss to deconstruct it in pm if you wish to. It would be too long and would generate too much interference to do it here on the topic
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Wed Mar 19, 2025 6:49 pm

Ultimate Battle Power Guide

A friend asked me to share his power level list here. It covers everything DB related and manages to be surprisingly consistent in all fronts. Definitely a type of list you guys would like (Guidebook numbers, Freeza > Base Saiyans, DBS base Goku isn't God level, SSJ4 ~ SSJB, yadda yadda).

He's also the guy who came up with the theory of SSJ being a spectrum (SSJ essence), which is pretty cool.
Spoiler:
Personally the only thing that throws me off is how weak the gang is on Daima, but it seems to be a popular opinion to have SSJ4 Mini Goku not even crack 1 billion.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Mar 19, 2025 11:40 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Wed Mar 19, 2025 6:49 pm Ultimate Battle Power Guide

A friend asked me to share his power level list here. It covers everything DB related and manages to be surprisingly consistent in all fronts. Definitely a type of list you guys would like (Guidebook numbers, Freeza > Base Saiyans, DBS base Goku isn't God level, SSJ4 ~ SSJB, yadda yadda).

He's also the guy who came up with the theory of SSJ being a spectrum (SSJ essence), which is pretty cool.
Spoiler:
Personally the only thing that throws me off is how weak the gang is on Daima, but it seems to be a popular opinion to have SSJ4 Mini Goku not even crack 1 billion.
I knew what list it was the second I saw that link title lol.

It's probably the best list on the internet, both in presentation and in the numbers.

I don't agree with everything of course. My biggest gripe is how weak it has Piccolo at the Cell Games and the insistence of having Goku getting stronger after the Zamasu arc when it's made very clear he didn't.

I also agree that SS4 Mini Goku shouldn't be that weak. It was clear Gomah was screwing around with Base Vegeta so at the very least SS Vegeta > SS4 Mini Goku and that can also be argued against and only have SS3 Vegeta > SS4 Mini Goku, which I prefer since it would mean Mini Goku/Vegeta only got around 10 times weaker since it's implied that SS4 is 10 times SS3.
Last edited by ZombieVito on Thu Mar 20, 2025 1:17 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Mar 20, 2025 12:17 am

The daima characters being that weak is pretty absurd to me. The idea that the strength comparison of the tamagamis to Dabra is meant to just be completely ignored and not an intended way of gauging strength by the writers doesn't sit right with me. The idea that two new majin boo-esque entities are created by their original creator with pieces of majin boo itself and yet could be beaten by namek Goku with kaioken...just not buying that at all.

The excuse that base Vegeta temporarily fought against Gomah is not at all good justification. It's just classic animated Dragon Ball form cycling. Base/super saiyan Goku put up a much better fight against Ikari Broly than Vegeta did with super saiyan god, yet I do not believe that Goku as a super saiyan is 50x stronger than super saiyan god Vegeta, and will make all of the power levels of that movie reflect that. Sometimes artistic license is a thing.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 20, 2025 11:16 am

Overall, I like the list, but I have the same issues as the rest and then some.

DBS:
-I don't think SSBKKx20 Goku could've defeated Hakaishin Toppo, for instance. To me, SSBE after the last power up is stronger than KKx20, no matter what any writer said, because that was not what they ended up showing.
-Also, I don't buy the "it was Gogeta" Goku was talking about when said fusion wouldn't cut it. I don't believe SS3 Vegito was factored in either, I think Toriyama is much more straightforward and less nitpicky in that regard... who did I use last time? SS Vegito? yeah, SS Vegito loses to Beerus, let's come up with a new form stronger than that.
- U6 arc Piccolo being 6,000 M seems too much. He was 1,000 M in RoF, seems too much of a jump for just a few months later? year? two? he barely even grew in the span of 10 years.
-Same for Moro arc Piccolo, I don't think he is any close to Super Buu, at all.
-Hard disagree on Gohan slacking off by the time SH happened. It was explained at the end of the movie.


DBGT: To me, it's more and more likely that Chibi Goku's SS forms aren't as great as the adult SS forms. Sometimes the boost is barely even noticeable. Certainly not 50x.
-Goten and Trunks did not keep training in GT. I see the list uses EoZ as basis to say they did, but GT explicitly says they haven't. Same for Gohan who is nothing to write home about, and was said by the writers that he was no longer a fighter (this writer, unlike the one from DBS actually says things that the series supports).
-Vegeta is not Goku's equal, at all. Super-17 arc proved that.
-Muchi proved to be stronger than Ruudo. The contradiction of what Doll Taki says and what is shown is probably another proof that GT was written by stupid people.
Nevetheless, GT is such a headache that I commend this guy for doing the list.

DBZ:
-I feel Piccolo should be stronger than 2nd form Cell by the time the Cell Games arrives. There's room enough between that form and the Cell Jrs.
-I like that Paikuhan could have a kaioken-ish technique explaining why he beat Cell while being SS level.
-Dai Kaiosama being 800M sounds good to me. I haven't seen him in any lists, ever.
-I'm not so sure about the rest of the participants of the AL Tournament. Some of them are listed to be even stronger than the androids, which doesn't seem ok to me. The dragon universe, while old, tends to have people weaker than Freeza or at least weaker than SS. Even the Daimakai has mostly fodder.
-I don't think Evil Buu was twice as strong as Mr. Buu. The absorptions of Super Buu seem too high, lately I've been feeling the gaps, not just in that arc, but in general, might be much lesser than what we think.
-I'm also not sure about EoZ, mostly because it keeps getting retconned. Gohan being as strong as the saiyans makes sense in the context of DBS, but not in GT's context which is what the list is basing it of. Gohan quit training as told by the writers and shown in GT. Anyway, just a minor nitpick at the explanation rather than the result.
-I can't recall Uub being said to be stronger than Mr. Buu, though... was that a thing?

Daima:
Yeah, I agree the nerf seems too much. To me is more like half and not 10x decrease.

Main things I do agree with: Vegeta being 6k after eating that KKx4 Kamehameha.
Agreed on the clown androids being weaker than Freeza.
2nd form Cell being not that much stronger than A-16 while also being able to tank him.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Mar 27, 2025 9:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 11:16 am Overall, I like the list, but I have the same issues as the rest and then some.

DBS:
-I don't think SSBKKx20 Goku could've defeated Hakaishin Toppo, for instance. To me, SSBE after the last power up is stronger than KKx20, no matter what any writer said, because that was not what they ended up showing.
-Also, I don't buy the "it was Gogeta" Goku was talking about when said fusion wouldn't cut it. I don't believe SS3 Vegito was factored in either, I think Toriyama is much more straightforward and less nitpicky in that regard... who did I use last time? SS Vegito? yeah, SS Vegito loses to Beerus, let's come up with a new form stronger than that.
- U6 arc Piccolo being 6,000 M seems too much. He was 1,000 M in RoF, seems too much of a jump for just a few months later? year? two? he barely even grew in the span of 10 years.
-Same for Moro arc Piccolo, I don't think he is any close to Super Buu, at all.
-Hard disagree on Gohan slacking off by the time SH happened. It was explained at the end of the movie.


DBGT: To me, it's more and more likely that Chibi Goku's SS forms aren't as great as the adult SS forms. Sometimes the boost is barely even noticeable. Certainly not 50x.
-Goten and Trunks did not keep training in GT. I see the list uses EoZ as basis to say they did, but GT explicitly says they haven't. Same for Gohan who is nothing to write home about, and was said by the writers that he was no longer a fighter (this writer, unlike the one from DBS actually says things that the series supports).
-Vegeta is not Goku's equal, at all. Super-17 arc proved that.
-Muchi proved to be stronger than Ruudo. The contradiction of what Doll Taki says and what is shown is probably another proof that GT was written by stupid people.
Nevetheless, GT is such a headache that I commend this guy for doing the list.

DBZ:
-I feel Piccolo should be stronger than 2nd form Cell by the time the Cell Games arrives. There's room enough between that form and the Cell Jrs.
-I like that Paikuhan could have a kaioken-ish technique explaining why he beat Cell while being SS level.
-Dai Kaiosama being 800M sounds good to me. I haven't seen him in any lists, ever.
-I'm not so sure about the rest of the participants of the AL Tournament. Some of them are listed to be even stronger than the androids, which doesn't seem ok to me. The dragon universe, while old, tends to have people weaker than Freeza or at least weaker than SS. Even the Daimakai has mostly fodder.
-I don't think Evil Buu was twice as strong as Mr. Buu. The absorptions of Super Buu seem too high, lately I've been feeling the gaps, not just in that arc, but in general, might be much lesser than what we think.
-I'm also not sure about EoZ, mostly because it keeps getting retconned. Gohan being as strong as the saiyans makes sense in the context of DBS, but not in GT's context which is what the list is basing it of. Gohan quit training as told by the writers and shown in GT. Anyway, just a minor nitpick at the explanation rather than the result.
-I can't recall Uub being said to be stronger than Mr. Buu, though... was that a thing?

Daima:
Yeah, I agree the nerf seems too much. To me is more like half and not 10x decrease.

Main things I do agree with: Vegeta being 6k after eating that KKx4 Kamehameha.
Agreed on the clown androids being weaker than Freeza.
2nd form Cell being not that much stronger than A-16 while also being able to tank him.
GT Gohan seemed pretty strong in his fight with Baby Goten. Base Gohan and SSJ Goten were stalemated.

I think GT does vaguely imply the boys trained a bit - it’s always said they don’t train enough, not that they don’t train period. I can see them matching the power their dads had in the Boo Saga, minus SSJ2/3 ofc.

I’d say the Daima nerf was 10x because SSJ3 Vegeta ripped Gomah a new one. Definitely more than 2x unless SSJ4 isn’t even twice SSJ3.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:10 am

The nerf for Goku and Vegeta needs to be at least 10 times since SS3 Vegeta > SS4 Mini Goku.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:52 am

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:10 am The nerf for Goku and Vegeta needs to be at least 10 times since SS3 Vegeta > SS4 Mini Goku.
Why? Because you think SS4 is 10x stronger than SS3?

Vegeta thought he could still defeat Gomah as a Super Saiyan 3 even after he saw how Adult SS4 Goku couldn't finish the job. I think a 10x difference between SS3 and SS4 is wayyy too much.

If anything, it seems like a negligible enough difference to the point that SS3 without the stamina issues might be equal to SS4.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Yuji » Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:53 am

DBZ Macky wrote: Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:52 am
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 01, 2025 1:10 am The nerf for Goku and Vegeta needs to be at least 10 times since SS3 Vegeta > SS4 Mini Goku.
Why? Because you think SS4 is 10x stronger than SS3?

Vegeta thought he could still defeat Gomah as a Super Saiyan 3 even after he saw how Adult SS4 Goku couldn't finish the job. I think a 10x difference between SS3 and SS4 is wayyy too much.

If anything, it seems like a negligible enough difference to the point that SS3 without the stamina issues might be equal to SS4.
NuSS4 may just be SSx10, or x500, compared to SS3's x400.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Thu Apr 03, 2025 12:29 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:52 am Why? Because you think SS4 is 10x stronger than SS3?

Vegeta thought he could still defeat Gomah as a Super Saiyan 3 even after he saw how Adult SS4 Goku couldn't finish the job. I think a 10x difference between SS3 and SS4 is wayyy too much.

If anything, it seems like a negligible enough difference to the point that SS3 without the stamina issues might be equal to SS4.
Bolded pretty much says it all.

I haven’t rewatched Daima, but weren’t they all aware whoever fights Gomah would just be the distraction?
Yuji wrote: Wed Apr 02, 2025 8:53 am NuSS4 may just be SSx10, or x500, compared to SS3's x400.
That is, without any exaggeration whatsoever, essentially nothing. I say 2x SSJ3.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Thu Apr 03, 2025 2:43 pm

We all took Broly's Ikari form to be 10 times his base because it uses Oozaru power.

Why is SS4 different?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Fri Apr 04, 2025 5:03 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 2:43 pm We all took Broly's Ikari form to be 10 times his base because it uses Oozaru power.

Why is SS4 different?
Broly's form is described as essentially being oozaru in human form without its lumbering moves. Daima SS4 has no explanation whatsoever so there's no point in linking it to numbers from another form that isn't mentioned. It doesn't have the same origins as super saiyan 4 from GT. It just shares a similar design.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:02 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 5:03 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 2:43 pm We all took Broly's Ikari form to be 10 times his base because it uses Oozaru power.

Why is SS4 different?
Broly's form is described as essentially being oozaru in human form without its lumbering moves. Daima SS4 has no explanation whatsoever so there's no point in linking it to numbers from another form that isn't mentioned. It doesn't have the same origins as super saiyan 4 from GT. It just shares a similar design.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PhantomSaiyan » Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:05 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:02 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 5:03 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 2:43 pm We all took Broly's Ikari form to be 10 times his base because it uses Oozaru power.

Why is SS4 different?
Broly's form is described as essentially being oozaru in human form without its lumbering moves. Daima SS4 has no explanation whatsoever so there's no point in linking it to numbers from another form that isn't mentioned. It doesn't have the same origins as super saiyan 4 from GT. It just shares a similar design.
Spoiler:
Was this in the show? I don't recall any dialogue during the transformation
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:12 pm

PhantomSaiyan wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:05 pm Was this in the show? I don't recall any dialogue during the transformation
Does it matter?

SSBE being equal to SSBKK20 isn't in the show either (Said by a DBS director I think) and people accepted it.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PhantomSaiyan » Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:29 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:12 pm
PhantomSaiyan wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 3:05 pm Was this in the show? I don't recall any dialogue during the transformation
Does it matter?

SSBE being equal to SSBKK20 isn't in the show either (Said by a DBS director I think) and people accepted it.
I was just asking because I genuinely did not remember.

But does it matter? Up the individual. Some people only take into account what's in the actual media and I think it's valid. If the writers wanted to convey something, they should do it in the media itself, not in external interviews. I myself also dislike when something isn't made clear in the show itself.

But if people choose to also take into consideration external media (I'm assuming the captions from the picture you've posted come from what the director said about the episode after it aired, if that's not where it comes from, feel free to correct me on that) that's valid as well.
But it's still definitely a negative of the show, media should not require extra digging in order to understand what's going on.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 04, 2025 4:04 pm

Ideally, a story should communicate its core ideas clearly through the show itself, without needing extra explanation. But I do think some things are conveyed in the show, even if they’re not spelled out explicitly.

In the case of Daima’s SS4, I’d argue it’s not just a visual nod. There are pretty direct thematic and physical cues connecting it to the Oozaru form. Goku regrows his tail, his hands enlarge, and his body becomes covered in fur. Those aren’t just aesthetic choices, they’re deliberate callbacks to the primal Saiyan power associated with Oozaru. It’s not just design inspiration, it’s echoing the mechanics and visual language of a transformation that’s been part of Dragon Ball since the early arcs.

So, even without outside commentary, I think the show is definitely telling us it’s Oozaru-derived. It just leaves enough room for discussion because it’s not spelled out in dialogue. But I agree: if the show had directly acknowledged it, that would’ve made things cleaner.
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Benjamin-Simons-91 » Mon Apr 07, 2025 11:17 am

Vice wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2025 12:59 pm Just throwing out a power level list at random. Don't mind me. I rounded most numbers up to the nearest 0 or 5 because I like nice, even numbers. Also didn't calculate numbers for like injuries or exhaustion or like individual attacks or anything like that.
I wonder why did you stopped listing Chiaotzu and how do you estimate his power level?
Also, what about Yamcha, Tien and Krillin in the Cell Games (they had 10 days to train) and in the Buu Saga?
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZ Macky » Thu Apr 10, 2025 8:39 am

ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 2:43 pm We all took Broly's Ikari form to be 10 times his base because it uses Oozaru power.

Why is SS4 different?
Because Broly went from being maybe around SS Vegeta's level to being able to whoop SSG Goku.
This discount SS4 on the other hand barely achieved anything that SS3 couldn't do. If it was a completely new transformation, would you still think it's 10x as strong as Super Saiyan 3? I don't think so.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 12:29 pm That is, without any exaggeration whatsoever, essentially nothing. I say 2x SSJ3.
500x over 400x is a much bigger multiplier than the difference between Vegeta (24k) and Dodoria (22k) on Namek, and in case you don't remember how that went:
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Re: Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Apr 11, 2025 5:10 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: Thu Apr 10, 2025 8:39 am
ZombieVito wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 2:43 pm We all took Broly's Ikari form to be 10 times his base because it uses Oozaru power.

Why is SS4 different?
Because Broly went from being maybe around SS Vegeta's level to being able to whoop SSG Goku.
This discount SS4 on the other hand barely achieved anything that SS3 couldn't do. If it was a completely new transformation, would you still think it's 10x as strong as Super Saiyan 3? I don't think so.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Thu Apr 03, 2025 12:29 pm That is, without any exaggeration whatsoever, essentially nothing. I say 2x SSJ3.
500x over 400x is a much bigger multiplier than the difference between Vegeta (24k) and Dodoria (22k) on Namek, and in case you don't remember how that went:
Image
I’d agree with you if Gomah didn’t get multiple power ups from the eye. This would be perfect:

SSJ3: 400
Gomah: 450
SSJ4: 500

But it’s more like this:

SSJ3: 400
Gomah: 450
1st power up: 500
2nd power up: 550
Giant: 600
SSJ4 Goku: 660

Fights are small gaps, but transformations jump multiple levels of power ahead.
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