Torishima's Harsh Take on Akio Iyoku and DB Store

[Sani007]

However, as far as I know, Dragon Ball Kai was Torishima’s idea. And not only was it a terrible idea, but in terms of quality it doesn’t exactly surpass the DB Store either…

Is there a source on this? It seems like that would be more of a Bandai/Toei thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd0ocHDfYgg&t=387s

[MasenkoHA]

However, as far as I know, Dragon Ball Kai was Torishima’s idea. And not only was it a terrible idea, but in terms of quality it doesn’t exactly surpass the DB Store either…

Is there a source on this? It seems like that would be more of a Bandai/Toei thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd0ocHDfYgg&t=387s

Huh. Interesting. It’s a shame he didn’t suggest a brand new animation. He’s not exactly wrong about Z’s pacing but Kai kind of proved why a simple scissor job to the existing animation just wasn’t going to work. Though I think there was a lot that went wrong with Kai beyond a misguided idea

[Mr Baggins]

I'm aware that Toriyama gave the final okay, but the initial decision and Nagamine's influence is what matters the most. Toriyama is unlikely to have both wanted Yamamuro replaced and turned down anyone selected by Nagamine, given Nagamine's own skill and good judgement.

I don't care for baseless speculation.

That interview is very clear about what happened. There was a pool of several animation supervisor candidates to select from, Toriyama specifically was the guy to choose who would take that mantle, then he personally chose Shintani based on the way he drew his characters. This wasn't just a "final okay".

Nagamine, on the other hand, said he didn't have any direct communication with Toriyama until the film's private screening and didn't consult with him while working as the film's director. Shintani very much did, and has also mentioned receiving design corrections from Toriyama.

It would be nothing other than a massive oversimplification to say that Nagamine's influence was the most important or that he was making all the major creative decisions for Broly. That's demonstrably not true. I think we can appreciate someone's contributions without obnoxiously overstating them.

[JulieYBM]

I'm aware that Toriyama gave the final okay, but the initial decision and Nagamine's influence is what matters the most. Toriyama is unlikely to have both wanted Yamamuro replaced and turned down anyone selected by Nagamine, given Nagamine's own skill and good judgement.

I don't care for baseless speculation.

That interview is very clear about what happened. There was a pool of several animation supervisor candidates to select from, Toriyama specifically was the guy to choose who would take that mantle, then he personally chose Shintani based on the way he drew his characters. This wasn't just a "final okay".

Nagamine, on the other hand, said he didn't have any direct communication with Toriyama until the film's private screening and didn't consult with him while working as the film's director. Shintani very much did, and has also mentioned receiving design corrections from Toriyama.

It would be nothing other than a massive oversimplification to say that Nagamine's influence was the most important or that he was making all the major creative decisions for Broly. That's demonstrably not true. I think we can appreciate someone's contributions without obnoxiously overstating them.

Nagamine not communicating with Toriyama literally means he was relying on his own judgement when directing the film when adapting Toriyama's screenplay. This literally means he was the most influential person in the production of the film.

[The Dark Knight]

At the same time, Shueisha is unable to replace Toyotaro, who - to put it mildly - is nowhere near talented enough to be worthy of continuing Dragon Ball. In ten years, he has been completely unable to improve.

Toyotaro is (for the most part) a really talented artist; his writing though has been very hit or miss. I think teaming him up with another writer would be the way to go moving forward, although I would like to give him the chance to finish his Black Freeza arc before doing that.

However, as far as I know, Dragon Ball Kai was Torishima’s idea. And not only was it a terrible idea, but in terms of quality it doesn’t exactly surpass the DB Store either…

I think the concept of Kai was brilliant, but the way it was done was terrible. Between skipping the original Dragon Ball anime to the pacing being all over the place, this project never got to be presented the best it could be.

[JulieYBM]

Toyotaro's art is a travesty. He can panel to save his life. His writing is at least servicable.

Kai was a terrible and inconsistent series. They should have just let Nagamine series direct a new series from scratch, since he was already directing the Opening and Ending animation.

[Mr Baggins]

Nagamine not communicating with Toriyama literally means he was relying on his own judgement when directing the film when adapting Toriyama's screenplay. This literally means he was the most influential person in the production of the film.

Dawg, you literally said that Nagamine probably brought Shintani on for the movie and attributed that to his influence, then asked if anyone else had a clearer answer, which I then promptly provided (and debunked, actually) along with receipts.

Don't be obtuse. You are by definition overstating the situation.
____

Oh yeah, I should probably get on topic.

I've already said that Torishima likes to play up his harshness. This is well known. What might not be as well known to some is that all of this information we keep making threads about is sourced from a podcast he makes regular appearances on.

At a certain point, I think people have to accept that Torishima's gonna Torishima. Guy has strong takes and likes to share them.

[JulieYBM]

Nagamine not communicating with Toriyama literally means he was relying on his own judgement when directing the film when adapting Toriyama's screenplay. This literally means he was the most influential person in the production of the film.

Dawg, you literally said that Nagamine probably brought Shintani on for the movie and attributed that to his influence, then asked if anyone else had a clearer answer, which I then promptly provided (and debunked, actually) along with receipts.

Don't be obtuse. You are by definition overstating the situation.
____

Oh yeah, I should probably get on topic.

I've already said that Torishima likes to play up his harshness. This is well known. What might not be as well known to some is that all of this information we keep making threads about is sourced from a podcast he makes regular appearances on.

At a certain point, I think people have to accept that Torishima's gonna Torishima. Guy has strong takes and likes to share them.

Toriyama approving Shintani does not actually indicate that Toriyama is the reason why Shintani was brought onto the project. Toriyama did not have connections with animators, he would not have been recruiting people to audition for the role of animation character designer, Nagamine or an animation producer on the film would have been. The question is what the exact situation was.

And fuck off with the 'dawg' shit.

[Mr Baggins]

Toriyama approving Shintani does not actually indicate that Toriyama is the reason why Shintani was brought onto the project.

Shintani was selected from a handful of candidates, which quite literally means Toriyama brought him onto the project. A competitive audition is just an audition; it doesn't make someone hired or "brought on" to the movie itself, or anything, really.

But look, feel free to continue spreading all this misinformation if you want. That's up to you. Again, I don't care for your speculative and subjective interpretation of whoever had the biggest dick when producing stuff – I'm just clearing the air that what you're saying is inaccurate, and you're being particularly annoying about it.

[PhantomSaiyan]

It's a fact that we don't know who had the idea of replacing Yammamuro first, so why are yall fighting about it as if any of us knows the answer

Like it's been said, we only know Toriyama picked him, but that does not mean he had the idea of changing character designer. That's all we know, everything else is just guessing

[SupremeKai25]

At a certain point, I think people have to accept that Torishima's gonna Torishima. Guy has strong takes and likes to share them.

"Daima is a trash anime" sure is a take, considering how it's one of the highest-reviewed anime series of the year (stellar artwork and animation), not to mention that it's currently the last storyline Toriyama worked on.

What kind of useful feedback did he give to the Daima team? "You made a trash anime" is not valid feedback, it's just an insult.

Just because he worked with Toriyama decades ago doesn't give him the right to insult people.

[Zebra]

However, as far as I know, Dragon Ball Kai was Torishima’s idea. And not only was it a terrible idea, but in terms of quality it doesn’t exactly surpass the DB Store either…

That's only because Toriyama refused to make a new story, so Torishima suggested they condense and remaster DBZ instead.

And while Kai wasn't popular in Japan, it was very successful in the US and brought in a new generation of fans. So, calling it a "terrible" idea is silly. The film Super Hero wasn't that big in Japan, either, but it did well in the US.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Torishima is so fucking based.

HARD AGREE.

He's a grumpy old man with no filter and that's honestly refreshing especially coming from a culture where they're usually EXTREMELY overly polite and hesitant to criticize anything.
On top of that, everything I've ever personally seen from Iyoku has that slick gloss of "bigshot producer"-speak that I find revolting.

It's the kind of crap that SOUNDS good and is slopped up by general people where he uses a lot of buzzwords about fans and care and honoring the history of things, but when you really read between the lines, he's saying stuff like "We looked at where the money is and attacked. As lazily as possible. We want adults with money and them to bring their kids so we have future money, too."

Which, hey, that's the goal behind any commercial enterprise, I get it, but he just strikes me as SO business-focused and not story-focused I walk away from interviews with him feeling like whether Shueisha or Iyoku wind up being the ultimate winner of their ongoing dispute over Dragon Ball, the franchise is now SOLELY in the hands of people who treat it like a pinata to whack and get money out of, and look for things like "The most vertically marketable four-quadrant approach to maximizing the potential of the franchise for years to come," instead of "What story should we come up with next?"

[The Dark Knight]

Whether Shueisha or Iyoku wind up being the ultimate winner of their ongoing dispute over Dragon Ball, the franchise is now SOLELY in the hands of people who treat it like a pinata to whack and get money out of, and look for things like "The most vertically marketable four-quadrant approach to maximizing the potential of the franchise for years to come," instead of "What story should we come up with next?"

This is why I'm never a fan of franchises coming back after being completed, because more often than not, this is how things end up. Considering the mindset the people in charge have, I don't think we'll ever get a Dragon Ball that prioritizes world building and character development like the classic trilogy did; it's all about flashy fights and transformations now.

[FinalForumPodcast]

Whether Shueisha or Iyoku wind up being the ultimate winner of their ongoing dispute over Dragon Ball, the franchise is now SOLELY in the hands of people who treat it like a pinata to whack and get money out of, and look for things like "The most vertically marketable four-quadrant approach to maximizing the potential of the franchise for years to come," instead of "What story should we come up with next?"

This is why I'm never a fan of franchises coming back after being completed, because more often than not, this is how things end up. Considering the mindset the people in charge have, I don't think we'll ever get a Dragon Ball that prioritizes world building and character development like the classic trilogy did; it's all about flashy fights and transformations now.

In my most pessimistic moments, I fear it's even worse than that. The real nasty pessimist inside me can see a situation where everything Toyotarou has been doing is just DROPPED. Whether or not you LIKE it isn't super relevant to the franchise prioritizing storytelling over reactionary marketing. I'd rather see the franchise continue until Toyotarou reaches the conclusion he wants and has set himself up to reach whether I wind up liking it or not (I've mostly liked what he's done thus far, for the record) than just STOP and pivot away and never get a satisfying conclusion to the various dangling threads that have been left out there.
Don't Star Wars/MCU/DCEU this to where it winds up feeling pointless to follow it because you're not guaranteed a payoff to things.

[The Dark Knight]

Don't Star Wars/MCU/DCEU this to where it winds up feeling pointless to follow it because you're not guaranteed a payoff to things.

This is a fear I've had since Toriyama passed away last year, as Toyotaro was clearly building up to something that may never materialize. The manga is still officially on hiatus, so at least they haven't said it's over, which means there's a chance of us getting to see him wrap up his story. With that said, the longer we go without anything official being said about the manga's return, the less likely it is that it comes back. I'm not the biggest fan of what he's done, or what Super in general has done, but I do want to see it wrap up properly; I don't want a story that's been going on for over a decade to just stop and never be resolved.

[Mr Baggins]

"Daima is a trash anime" sure is a take, considering how it's one of the highest-reviewed anime series of the year (stellar artwork and animation), not to mention that it's currently the last storyline Toriyama worked on.

What kind of useful feedback did he give to the Daima team? "You made a trash anime" is not valid feedback, it's just an insult.

Just because he worked with Toriyama decades ago doesn't give him the right to insult people.

I agree with you, to be clear.

My view of Daima is that it's the best Dragon Ball project to come out since 2018's Broly. I suspect it's also the last one that most (including myself) will ever care about, barring Toei adapting any possible leftover material from Toriyama. There's only one guy whose opinions and artistry matter to me when it comes to this franchise, and he passed away in March of 2024.

I also happen to think the best stories of the original series were the arcs written after Torishima's tenure as editor ended, though I'll always give him credit for helping to establish DB in the first place.

Therein lies the point, however, that this is a figure with the platform and credentials to say whatever he wants. That he built his career around giving harsh feedback and saying wildly provocative shit is kind of the whole agenda here, even if some of it really does reek of typical "old man yells at cloud" type rambling that comes pretty dangerously close to sounding bitter and out of touch. Even Toriyama depicted him as a villain, but this is also the same Toriyama who himself mentioned he found Torishima deeply relatable as a fellow person who says stuff with his chest.

All of this is to say that my guy isn't likely dropping his whole schtick anytime soon. You don't have to agree with him, but... Torishima's gonna Torishima.

[IntangibleFancy]

I think Akio is way too obsessed with nostalgia-pandering and fanservice, but I'd rather take that than the franchise collecting dust in Shueisha's custody with all the attention and effort going to One Piece

On a side note, I've seen Torishima rag on Attack on Titan's ending, the Demon Slayer story, One Piece's writing, Daima, Super, Toyotaro, it feels like Torishima hates everything lol.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Torishima and Iyoku should sit down over a cup of tea/coffee and sort their differences like mature men. There's no need for this petty drama and "back in my day" rambling when we have both to thank for a lot of things we love about Dragon Ball old and new.

"Secret society" is a slippery slope that would make me worry about Torishima going down a conspiracy rabbit hole. Hopefully that doesn't happen.

[MasenkoHA]

I also happen to think the best stories of the original series were the arcs written after Torishima's tenure as editor ended, though I'll always give him credit for helping to establish DB in the first place.

Therein lies the point, however, that this is a figure with the platform and credentials to say whatever he wants. That he built his career around giving harsh feedback and saying wildly provocative shit is kind of the whole agenda here, even if some of it really does reek of typical "old man yells at cloud" type rambling that comes pretty dangerously close to sounding bitter and out of touch. Even Toriyama depicted him as a villain, but this is also the same Toriyama who himself mentioned he found Torishima deeply relatable as a fellow person who says stuff with his chest.

All of this is to say that my guy isn't likely dropping his whole schtick anytime soon. You don't have to agree with him, but... Torishima's gonna Torishima.

Needs to be said even if you prefer the post-Torishima stuff it also went in that direction because Torishima told Toriyama to ditch the road story format and go Fist of the North Star. Toriyama also respected Torishima’s opinion enough to drop 19 and 20 as the main villains for 17 and 18 and then the latter for Cell even though Torishima had no editorial authority over Toriyama at that point. Which was absolutely the correct decision to make on Toriyama’s part.

Is Torishima a likable or agreeable man? Ehhh doesn’t sound like it but he knows the business.