Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

To me, a 10x boost between arcs from regular training is too much. That’s even greater than the boosts they usually get during some arcs, when they’re actively trying to break their limits with a clear goal in mind (except for the Namek arc).

During arcs, there have been huge improvements under extreme training conditions, up to 30x like in the Namek arc. But between arcs, growth tends to be minimal, at best around 2x even after 7 years of training in the afterlife. I just can’t believe regular, earthly, solo training would provide a 10x boost like the ROSAT or the afterlife.

It would just bloat everything too much. It’s much simpler to assume that Gohan lost power rather than everyone else becoming that much stronger, because we’ve seen in RoF how quickly Gohan can fall off, but we’ve never seen massive off-screen boosts between arcs.
Also, when talking about Gohan being surpassed, we can’t overlook that Akira basically stopped treating him as a major factor. He kicked him down the ladder without a second thought.

[Miracles]

Beerus > Freeza, Fusions, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Broly etc.

When is the Oracle fish's prophecy going to come to pass that he will have a challenger?

I told y'all.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

By the time of the start of Super while Gohan still had Ultimate he had not been training so his power would have been lower anyways, while Goku and Vegeta never stopped training. From Buu Saga to Daima is 6 months later and the same applies, Gohan had not been training while those two were training the whole time. I doubt they would be as strong as Ultimate Gohan who fought Super Buu but they are definitely stronger than the Ultimate Gohan who had not been training and had gotten weaker up until he simply lost the Ultimate State after Beerus Saga is over.

Going by the movie, Gohan hadn't lost his power yet - He said he chose the moment when "everyone would be at their strongest". Wearing his gi (Which he does in the movie and manga) would also indicate he hasn't slacked off yet. Ironically the anime is the only one that implies Gohan is rusty (Normal clothes + Piccolo saying he hasn't shown that power since the Boo Saga).

To me, a 10x boost between arcs from regular training is too much. That’s even greater than the boosts they usually get during some arcs, when they’re actively trying to break their limits with a clear goal in mind (except for the Namek arc).

During arcs, there have been huge improvements under extreme training conditions, up to 30x like in the Namek arc. But between arcs, growth tends to be minimal, at best around 2x even after 7 years of training in the afterlife. I just can’t believe regular, earthly, solo training would provide a 10x boost like the ROSAT or the afterlife.

It would just bloat everything too much. It’s much simpler to assume that Gohan lost power rather than everyone else becoming that much stronger, because we’ve seen in RoF how quickly Gohan can fall off, but we’ve never seen massive off-screen boosts between arcs.
Also, when talking about Gohan being surpassed, we can’t overlook that Akira basically stopped treating him as a major factor. He kicked him down the ladder without a second thought.

This is a pretty unique situation, because I don't think there's any other saga that ends with Goku not being the top dog. This is basically a course correction on Toriyama's part, bumping Goku back to his top dog spot after the events of the Boo Saga. I used to think a 10x power up in 4 years was fine, but the fact Goku is this powerful as early as Daima - which is roughly 1 year, is nothing short of a literal plot device.

I think Daima has validated the idea of Goku becoming quite a lot stronger. We know the Kid versions are roughly as strong as their Boo Saga counterparts, based on the Tamagamis being stronger than Dabura. That means SSJ4 Kid Goku and Gomah are stronger than Kid Boo, and SSJ Adult Vegeta is up there since he smacks Gomah and activates his healing factor.

[Cipher]

Who is the strongest Z character DBS Piccolo (pre SH) can defeat? Manga and anime.

Manga: I agree with others keeping him below Cell at his strongest, though there's admittedly some ambiguity in his Moro arc team-ups with Gohan.

Precisely because they're ambiguous though, I'm not intended to read any wild, unstated leaps until what we get in the Super Hero arc and, as others have pointed out, he initially fares worse against his Gamma than Super Saiyan Gohan does against his.

Which is in keeping with his last clear comparison to Super Saiyans, in the U6 arc, where he struggles with a (Cell-ish-level?) Frost that Super Saiyan Goku is capable of matching.

Assuming everyone gets a decent leap at all levels during the Moro arc training, maybe just over Cell/early SS2s. I don't prefer reading major leaps unless specifically shown, as both DB and Super find ways to do when it matters, but I can see the case for that.

Anime: ???

[Miracles]

Piccolo in the U6 tournament surpassed Cell. The guy was able to defend attacks from final form Frost and the only way he got beat was the same way SSJ Goku did. With hidden poison attacks.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Piccolo is definitely stronger than Goten and Trunks in DBS, right? That bumps him quite a bit from his Z placement, from Semi Cell to Perfect Cell level I’d say.

His fight with Frost is grossly overestimated (Frost is worn out and Piccolo hangs by via skill no jutsu), but his power is more respected than Goten and Trunks.

[QuakingStar]

By the days before the ToP he's stronger than SS2 Gohan who had been training supposedly. In fact he casually was beating Gohan. He's stronger than Goten and Trunks without question.

[Yuji]

By the days before the ToP he's stronger than SS2 Gohan who had been training supposedly. In fact he casually was beating Gohan. He's stronger than Goten and Trunks without question.

That's anime Piccolo. Manga Piccolo (and movie Piccolo for that matter) is consistently portrayed below SS Gohan.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, that was a rusty SSJ2 Gohan - Even at the most minimalistic, I wouldn’t be surprised if DBS SSJs were stronger than the weakest SSJ2 of DBZ. That’s a less than 2x difference.

On the other hand, it’s implied Piccolo defeated Gohan via skill, so he’s not necessarily stronger.

[QuakingStar]

By the days before the ToP he's stronger than SS2 Gohan who had been training supposedly. In fact he casually was beating Gohan. He's stronger than Goten and Trunks without question.

That's anime Piccolo. Manga Piccolo (and movie Piccolo for that matter) is consistently portrayed below SS Gohan.

Sure, but then you have to prove that Piccolo didn't change much from the U6 v U7 to the ToP, then from from the ToP to the SH Arc. Goku says clearly that Gohan and Piccolo had gotten much stronger in the Moro Arc as well.

[QuakingStar]

To be fair, that was a rusty SSJ2 Gohan - Even at the most minimalistic, I wouldn’t be surprised if DBS SSJs were stronger than the weakest SSJ2 of DBZ. That’s a less than 2x difference.

On the other hand, it’s implied Piccolo defeated Gohan via skill, so he’s not necessarily stronger.

He defeated Ultimate Gohan via skill, not SS2 Gohan and Gohan had been training in the Timechamber and by himself as he said in the Black Saga and the Pre-ToP tournament. Piccolo was simply stronger than Gohan until he got Ultimate back, then he won via outwitting him.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He defeated Ultimate Gohan via skill, not SS2 Gohan and Gohan had been training in the Timechamber and by himself as he said in the Black Saga and the Pre-ToP tournament. Piccolo was simply stronger than Gohan until he got Ultimate back, then he won via outwitting him.

That is true.

As much as people criticize the anime, I think it did a better job portraying Piccolo's strength than the manga. Him training with Gohan post RoF, being suggested to be above the SSJ Boys in U6 and beating SSJ2 Gohan before the ToP paint a fairly precise portrait of his strength.

I think it's fair to say that, by the ToP, Piccolo is somewhere between Majin Vegeta and Good Boo.

[QuakingStar]

To be fair, that was a rusty SSJ2 Gohan - Even at the most minimalistic, I wouldn’t be surprised if DBS SSJs were stronger than the weakest SSJ2 of DBZ. That’s a less than 2x difference.

On the other hand, it’s implied Piccolo defeated Gohan via skill, so he’s not necessarily stronger.

He defeated Ultimate Gohan via skill, not SS2 Gohan and Gohan had been training in the Timechamber and by himself as he said in the Black Saga and the Pre-ToP tournament. Piccolo was simply stronger than Gohan until he got Ultimate back, then he won via outwitting him.

Small correction, I believe he said he was using the Gravity chamber, not the time chamber. But yes, Gohans strength in the Pre-ToP Tournament was talked about by Goku. I think its clear enough that Gohan before he re-awakens Ultimate is stronger than Buu Saga and Cell Saga Gohan barring Ultimate. So I'd put Piccolo closer to Buu Saga Fat Buu in power when he defeats SS2 Gohan and outwits Ultimate Gohan.

[Mystic-han]

Both Anime and manga have piccolo consistently being on sub Ssj tier from the sams arc

In anime you could argue he's from Buu saga ssj2 level from defeating Gohan to up over Gotenks level if we uses the copy Vegeta arc and RoF

In the manga him throwing hands with Saganbo and Moro and doing better than 17 and 18 in combo greatly upgrade his statue

[Mystic-han]

Also what's up with the Zamasu question?

We saw what it took to kill him , it wasn't a super mortal it wasn't a Hakaishin it wasn't even an Angel (all thought sealing was the only option)

Anything minus Zeno can't kill Zamasu

[Mystic-han]

All battle powers equalized and reducing the battle to skill and techniques, out of all the Z and Super villains, who's coming out on top? Maybe besides Beerus since he probably wins easily (millions of years of experience, Hakai and other abilities).

I would have said Moro wins since he can just absorb everyone else's Ki, but then again Boo is a hard counter to Moro (on top of doing really well against everyone else to begin with), so I'd probably take him.

1. Boo
2. Moro
3. Zamasu (immortal, you need a way to kill him which most don't have)
4. Janemba?
5. Cell?

Buu was hard counter when Moro had barely any magic left , once he got his full magic he started absorbing his energy fine and his abilities worked without problem

[Hugo Boss]

Both Anime and manga have piccolo consistently being on sub Ssj tier from the sams arc

In anime you could argue he's from Buu saga ssj2 level from defeating Gohan to up over Gotenks level if we uses the copy Vegeta arc and RoF

In the manga him throwing hands with Saganbo and Moro and doing better than 17 and 18 in combo greatly upgrade his statue

I agree on the this take, though I think the anime doesn’t explain how Piccolo progressed that quickly between struggling against Tagoma, then giving trouble to Frost, dominating SS2 Gohan, and finally being almost relative to Ultimate Gohan against Saonel and Pirina.

In the manga, it’s also difficult to understand how he stood relatively close to Ultimate Gohan and 17 against Saganbo, before having his potential unleashed itself. It’s almost like Toyotaro was anticipating his gains through the Dragon Balls in Moro arc.

I think Toriyama presents Piccolo’s best power progression through the movies, by structuring his power levels in different forms, all relative to Gohan’s transformations. In this case, it makes sense that his regular base level is comparable with SS Gohan, despite Gohan having a clearly better showing against the Gammas.

Realistically, I don’t think he can beat SS2 level characters from Z.

[Yuji]

All battle powers equalized and reducing the battle to skill and techniques, out of all the Z and Super villains, who's coming out on top? Maybe besides Beerus since he probably wins easily (millions of years of experience, Hakai and other abilities).

I would have said Moro wins since he can just absorb everyone else's Ki, but then again Boo is a hard counter to Moro (on top of doing really well against everyone else to begin with), so I'd probably take him.

1. Boo
2. Moro
3. Zamasu (immortal, you need a way to kill him which most don't have)
4. Janemba?
5. Cell?

Buu was hard counter when Moro had barely any magic left , once he got his full magic he started absorbing his energy fine and his abilities worked without problem

Moro also just got significantly stronger and we know Dragon Ball works off a "higher battle power ignores hax" logic. So even at full magic capacity, if his BP is equivalent to Boo, the latter may still be immune.