Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[angeldreamZ004]

Yeah I think the "God-Like" term is the most appropriate way to refer to it as well, it explains the "hybrid" visual with physical appearance not changing but the aura does, and being able to sense "half-ki" only, not the full extent.
After the 2015 movie, I think the closest we get to that as a visual indicator, is with SSJ1. In the ToP and Broly movie we see Goku and Vegeta using SSJ1 power without transforming. Basically "SSJ1-Like power"
(Which you could also use as a in-universe explanation for the Toei original Black Haired SSJ1)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So SSJG never left the franchise. In RoF, base Goku being allowed to fight Final Form Freeza was because of that god power boost from BoG. Which backs up Toriyama's point that Goku does not "need" to transform into Red after absorbing it's power. Not that he can't turn into Red hair. Therefore if Goku can be sensed in base and blond during Bog and RoF then there is no God Ki and the two base is just that a non existent theory.

Problem is, the anime and the manga had completely different takes on it. In the anime SSJ Goku wasn't any weaker than his SSJG self, and went on to become even stronger. In the manga Goku never lost the form until the fight was over.

[angeldreamZ004]

That is for the animated Beerus arc only (all of them, Movie, Old Anime, New Anime too unless the trailers are tricking us)

Once we arrive at the Golden Freeza arc, and see Base Goku struggling against Final Form Freeza, the TV anime is given a status that is no longer the same as the one seen in the original movie versions of those arcs, but the same status of the manga.

That is only further exposed with Goku using SSJG again in the ToP, making it equal to the manga, which has the same concept.
Throughout the entire anime too after the Beerus arc we see Goku having to transform against characters who clearly aren't supposed to be SSJG level.

[Hugo Boss]

Throughout the entire anime too after the Beerus arc we see Goku having to transform against characters who clearly aren't supposed to be SSJG level.

Exactly. Unless we are admitting that a bunch of over 30 characters in those universes can compare to the gods, not to mention even Krillin himself, I don’t think Goku’s base form carried that power through all of Super continuity, at least not until his fight with Moro or Broly in Super Hero.

I can totally understand the reason behind Goku surpassing his golden Super Saiyan forms through experiencing divine power. I don’t think it’s hard to justify it, considering Whis was not letting them use Super Saiyan in their training in order to get them to such achievement. It’s also because of that that Goku’s Base and Super Saiyan evolved. The issue is mostly what came after Golden Freeza and the return of the old forms that demanded a rework in the power level structure of Saiyan transformations to accomodate the next developments. The “two-base” theory was basically a fanon attempt to rationalize this subtle rework by suggesting the Saiyans could swiftly change from “normal” to “God-like” Base to suit plot necessity. Since it was never confirmed they were doing that on purpose, it lost traction and I think most people believe it’s just a minor inconsistency added to the list of Super inconsistencies lot.

By the way, I guess Base Goku and Vegeta in Super Hero surpassing the level of a full-powered Super Saiyan in Cell Games might be possible, considering they had Broly as their training partner for a good while. I just don’t see that being possible in Zamasu arc, for example, given that Goku and Trunks’ Super Saiyan forms were still not stronger than SS2 Kid Gohan.

[Koitsukai]

I always assumed Goku ends Z being as strong as Buu since he fights its reencarnation, but it's not really clear how strong Uub is.

With that in mind, even if Uub isn't that strong just yet, SS2 tier in base seems legit.

[Skar]

Exactly. Unless we are admitting that a bunch of over 30 characters in those universes can compare to the gods, not to mention even Krillin himself, I don’t think Goku’s base form carried that power through all of Super continuity, at least not until his fight with Moro or Broly in Super Hero.

I wonder if the remake is going leave out Goku absorbing SSJG like the manga did. That's where the confusion came from when the original forms and SSJG reappeared in the anime. Some scenes implied a regular base while others implied Saiyan beyond God like against SSJ3 Gotenks. A lot of those were anime only scenes so they might be cut too.

[Hugo Boss]

I wonder if the remake is going leave out Goku absorbing SSJG like the manga did. That's where the confusion came from when the original forms and SSJG reappeared in the anime. Some scenes implied a regular base while others implied Saiyan beyond God like against SSJ3 Gotenks. A lot of those were anime only scenes so they might be cut too.

According to the recent Super Gekitou trailer, Goku will fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan after SSG runs out of time, so it seems this plot point remains. And it makes sense that this is being kept, because Toriyama specifically outlined it as such in the Battle of Gods movie and reiterated it in interview. This follows the logic that this version of Super is being marketed as more faithful to Toriyama’s vision.

I always assumed Goku ends Z being as strong as Buu since he fights its reencarnation, but it's not really clear how strong Uub is.

With that in mind, even if Uub isn't that strong just yet, SS2 tier in base seems legit.

I think the general message of Oob is that most of his potential was still locked, which prompted Goku to suggest training him, so that he could have the match he was expecting. That said, it’s pure guess, since their fight wasn’t that much revealing, but I don’t think Oob could challenge Freeza or Cell with that level of movements. It didn’t look like Goku was at a pinch of losing either.

[Skar]

According to the recent Super Gekitou trailer, Goku will fight Beerus as a Super Saiyan after SSG runs out of time, so it seems this plot point remains. And it makes sense that this is being kept, because Toriyama specifically outlined it as such in the Battle of Gods movie and reiterated it in interview. This follows the logic that this version of Super is being marketed as more faithful to Toriyama’s vision.

I think going by the movies only that Goku using SSJ against Beerus was trying to tap into SSJG again. In RoF it was just Saiyan Beyond God and Blue which was just SSJ1 + SSJG. In Broly, Goku uses base, SSJ, and then SSJG so I think the Saiyan Beyond God and God ki powered SSJ didn't apply anymore.

[Miracles]

It's just a powered up version of SSJ [All his modes] after making SSJG another form of Goku's. Nothing more. It is and was never as strong as or stronger than Red.