What is the lamest thing to come out of modern DBZ?

[Jord]

Dragon Ball Xenoverse 3 looks like it will take places 200+ years after EOZ, we can only hope that it turns out good. Majority of the main cast should be dead, except if they have a long life span or immortal.

I don't think Toriyama is at fault for DBS, majority of their bad decision was Toei. Most of the bad scenes were Toei only scenes. Toei chose to go overboard, making it get old and annoying.

Technically you are right, but I can't imagine that Goku and the gang won't show up. I hope not but I can see a time rift or time machine play a role.

[super michael]

"It's Toei's fault" doesn't really say or mean anything, because Toei Animation is not a monolith and the people making these series are incredibly hand-tied by restrictions by networks, producers, the production committee, Iyoku, Shueisha and Toriyama. We're not getting at the heart of the issue, especially when you consider that the lead people who work on these series typically make good work elsewhere.

Super Saiyan Blue Hair and Pronouns isn't the problem, it's Gokuu's bullshit behavior never really being addressed or Gohan repeating the same fuckin' arc four times in a row. If Toriyama was not going to use his authority to tell a story and have ideas for his characters' growth, then let someone else do it. God knows there are plenty of good series directors at Toei Animation who can do it if you just let them make decisions without worrying too much about rights holders bullshit.

Or hell, just fund original anime unrelated to Toriyama in general lol

Unfortunately you are correct, if the networks, producers, the production committee, Iyoku, Shueisha and Toriyama decides on something, then the writers will have to do what they say, regardless if they don't want to do it. I have seen writers complain when the writers can't do as they wish, since the network can deny what they want to do. I get your point when you say blaming Toei means nothing, we have to point our fingers at those responsible.

I like your thinking, you have addressed the problem with DBS and even what Toriyama should have done. A whole new IP unrelated to Toriyama is actually a good idea.

All the recolored transformations, all the returning villains, the fan-inspired concepts, etc... were all him. He did make it clear he was just writing stories around concepts handed to him by whoever he was working with, but he was still ultimately the person who approved said concepts.

While those are things Toriyama had control, I was thinking more about the filler scenes. Then again Toriyama gave the seal of approval to allow it, Toriyama could have easily said no if he didn't want it to happen.

Setting Dragon Ball Super before the 28th tournament is purely Toriyama and seeing as how it is one of its biggest problems, he's definitely at fault, big time.

I don't know why people still try to rid Toriyama's name of all that is bad when we have evidence that bad stuff came from him too.

When it comes to canon episode and movies, then Toriyama is 100% at fault. As for filler materials, I guess we can blame Toriyama since he can deny those episode and scenes. I remember hearing that Toei or Toyotaro wanted to have Belmod and his Angel as lovers, but Toriyama denied that. I don't know if that is true or not, it is what I heard.

[The Dark Knight]

I don't know why people still try to rid Toriyama's name of all that is bad when we have evidence that bad stuff came from him too.

Fans don't want to admit that Toriyama is not the best of writers when left to work alone without the aid of others, be it his editors or the writers at Toei who expand on his work.

[angeldreamZ004]

I guess it's less about them not wanting to admit something specific in regards to Toriyama, and more about them being “noisy” when saying what they feel. Or else, we wouldn't see so many people complaining about Goku's characterization in Super, which is something Toriyama was behind as well.

It's like asking “Who's the best movie director?” to 10 different people, each one will give a different answer, because they'll answer based on their emotions and not exactly on what's true.

Of course, there's enough evidence to prove that Toriyama working “alone” in the revival / modern era made his work feel noticeably different from what he did in the previous century.
Now if it's bad or good it's up to people to debate. For example

Many people dislike or complain about the transformations being recolors or barely changing anything in Super. I don't, I prefer these transformations (or at least most of them) over forms like SSJ3 or SSJ4. SSJG, SSJB, UI etc are better than those, and are on par with SSJ1 in my opinion and I like the forms to not change the appearance too much like SSJ3 and SSJ4. I do think there are transformations that are really lazy though such as Trunks’ SSJ Rage, or have more potential such as Beast form, which copies SSJ2 too much. Both Beast Gohan and Orange Piccolo are not as deep and complex as the new forms achieved by Goku and Vegeta, so I hope they are more explored in upcoming arcs.

“Fan-Inspired concepts” I'm not sure about, but I liked most of the new concepts and world expansion that Super did. There are multiple of them though that I think had more potential or have been just forgotten or ignored, and for this I also consider Daima as a whole.

“Returning Villains” I really like Freeza's return, at least starting from the ToP. And I'm not sure if Broly can be considered, but I liked him too. Freeza's first revival though, wasn't good for his character and Cell Max really sucks, worst Modern era villain personally.

Even Goku's characterization, which a lot of people complain about. It doesn't bother me, I believe I understand what Toriyama tried to do, and I like it. I feel more impacted (positively) by Goku's character in Super than anything he delivers in GT and especially Daima. What annoys me at best are the Toei exclusive moments, but I think people exaggerate as I see them just as moments made to be funny, but I don't think they're funny at all. But Toei also did really good filler / anime exclusive moments with Goku in my opinion, especially moments where he's spending time with his family and friends and making them happy, developing and exploring his emotional side, I don't see many people talking about this, and the manga mainly ignores this kind of stuff.

So I see both the good and bad sides of it, it just depends on the person or the fan, the ones who hate DBS Goku are so annoyed by the changes in his character and the dumb moments that they are unable to see or feel the good side of that, which is fine in my opinion. I'm the opposite, I don't see that as an example of “Toriyama writing” getting worse, you can take many things to debate that. I really dislike how two of the Revival / Modern era Movies are Freeza Saga Golden Edition and Cell Saga DLC, for me those are examples of Toriyama being lazy. But I already saw people who have no issue with that, believe or not.
The same way I already saw people who prefer Super over the original series, GT over Super, Daima over GT, The Pilaf - Piccolo Junior portion of the original series over Raditz - Boo. All of them for different reasons.

Of course, there are the Toriyama fanboys too, they'll usually say stuff like “Super is the true canon / true sequel, only what Toriyama does is canon”, you know very well, so this is where it stops being just noisy opinions, as it's starting getting over actual facts, becoming straight up misinformation.

All that said though, and responding to the thread's main question, what bothers me the most in Modern Dragon Ball is:

1-Toriyama's decision to make Super connected to EoZ, which was unnecessary in my opinion and helps Super feel limited, and obviously it would end up creating many plotholes and inconsistencies, so I just don't see the need. I'm not against using characters like Uub or Pan, I like them, but I'm specifically not interested in Super being a midquel.

2- The Nostalgia Bait - Fanservice material. Super introduces very interesting new ideas and characters imo, but every time Toriyama brought something from the past purely for nostalgia and fanservice instead of using it to tell something interesting, I think it was a huge letdown. I would have preferred the Red Ribbon to not return and just be 100% new villains instead. Daima SSJ4 did not impress me.
Broly was different as Toriyama actually did a new character inspired by the old one, while using ideas from other previous movies, such as Z Movie 12, or the Bardock Special and even adapting Minus. It worked really well, it was fanservice done right imo. BoG also worked because I see it as the celebration of the series’ return. So it makes a lot of sense why there are a lot of references to the original series.

[super michael]

People didn't exaggerate Goku negative points in the anime, the problem with the anime was that Goku being dumb and annoying happened far too often and it was predictable. They have a huge cast of character but Goku was the doing it far too often. To make it worse Goku was doing dumb things on things that he should know better.

Toyotaro on the other hand toned down Goku dumb moments or just erased it completely. An example of this is Goku Black Saga and DBS Super Hero.


Character being forbidden from fighting and training was mostly exclusive to the anime. I understand Toriyama started it first, but then Toei got carried away.

A bit of something isn't a bad thing, but getting carried away and doing it too much is never good.

[angeldreamZ004]

I do think people overstate or exaggerate on that, I really see almost no differences between manga and anime DBS Goku. And there are people who say that both versions of DBS Goku are dumb or ruin the character. Or people who think it's the anime only, like you.
For me it's the same thing as those who say that the old Toei Goku and the original manga Goku are different from each other. I saw this a lot. In the same vein, people who say that the Goku from the Z movies is different from both old anime and old manga Goku. I think they all exaggerate but I get where they are coming from.
I believe the key to this is pretty much different reactions to getting more exposed to the character in different ways (Z Movies: Goku is always there to fight villains. Super: Goku is always there for slice of life - casual - funny moments. These are stuff you won't see in the original series very often)

Also, how come it's Toyotaro the one who's responsible for supposedly making him "less dumb" in the manga? Isn't the "dumber Goku" a Toei thing? If it was Toei adding up to it, then how come Toriyama was the one who "started it first" and how exactly he's not responsible for "less dumb Goku" in the manga?. Sounds confusing to me.

[Zephyr]

I'm not sure I'd say that people exaggerate how dumb Goku is in Super, but I do think they exaggerate how damning that is. Unless we're talking about his martial prowess being arbitrarily dumbed down, the "meditation" bit in Super Hero being a prime example (and probably has my current vote for this thread's central question). That dumbing down actually matters narratively, because his genius in these matters is part of what helps him eclipse all of his rivals so consistently, which in turn causes him to take risks to find worthy challenges, and in the process drive the actual story forward. In contrast, him regressing to be more of a helpless doofus in social situations again is pretty inconsequential.

[angeldreamZ004]

I see that moment from Super Hero as more of a surprise reaction from him because he's used to seeing Vegeta doing physical training only, and not the advanced mental / spiritual training. Which I also believe it sounds exaggerated from the movie's perspective because it was a side effect from writing a story that is supposed to take place after two arcs, but it was essentially made prior to them, they very likely had no idea what Toyotaro was doing in the manga at the moment.

In the manga Goku's reaction ends up making more sense because the Super Hero arc comes after the Moro and Granola arcs, and we see Vegeta meditating in the Moro arc, meaning that Goku learned about it, so they manage to "fix" that narrative inconsistency which was originally generated from a production decision of making a sequel unaware of what was coming prior to it.

[super michael]

I do think people overstate or exaggerate on that, I really see almost no differences between manga and anime DBS Goku. And there are people who say that both versions of DBS Goku are dumb or ruin the character. Or people who think it's the anime only, like you.
For me it's the same thing as those who say that the old Toei Goku and the original manga Goku are different from each other. I saw this a lot. In the same vein, people who say that the Goku from the Z movies is different from both old anime and old manga Goku. I think they all exaggerate but I get where they are coming from.
I believe the key to this is pretty much different reactions to getting more exposed to the character in different ways (Z Movies: Goku is always there to fight villains. Super: Goku is always there for slice of life - casual - funny moments. These are stuff you won't see in the original series very often)

Also, how come it's Toyotaro the one who's responsible for supposedly making him "less dumb" in the manga? Isn't the "dumber Goku" a Toei thing? If it was Toei adding up to it, then how come Toriyama was the one who "started it first" and how exactly he's not responsible for "less dumb Goku" in the manga?. Sounds confusing to me.

- The Monaka episode doesn't exist in the manga, that only exist in the anime an example.
- Goku didn't forget the talisman in Goku Black Saga, Master Roshi gave him the wrong tag in the manga. In the anime Master Roshi told Goku to wait, so he could give it to him, but Goku just left without it.
- In DBS Super manga Goku accepted that Vegeta was meditating and understood his explanation. In the movie Goku accused Vegeta of being a liar and lazy. Goku was clueless to what Vegeta was saying.
- In the ToP Goku got upset for C17 using his brains against the three girls transforming, this didn't happen in the manga at all.

Those are the reasons why DBS Goku manga and anime are different. In the manga I don't believe they had to remind Goku to take the ToP recruitment seriously each chapter, while in the anime they had to keep reminding him.

[angeldreamZ004]

- The Monaka episode doesn't exist in the manga, that only exist in the anime an example.

Of course, that's why I'm not using anime filler as a comparison because that's Toei doing extra stuff. Also, the Monaka episode? That's literally a joke episode, so I don't see a reason to take it seriously.

- Goku didn't forget the talisman in Goku Black Saga, Master Roshi gave him the wrong tag in the manga. In the anime Master Roshi told Goku to wait, so he could give it to him, but Goku just left without it.

In contrast to that, Goku also does smart things in the anime only, such as taking Vegeta's idea from the manga where he's at SSJG state and uses SSJB only for attacks. He doesn't do that in the manga, in the anime he also uses SSJB + Kaioken, which impressed Vegeta, Beerus and Whis.

- In DBS Super manga Goku accepted that Vegeta was meditating and understood his explanation. In the movie Goku accused Vegeta of being a liar and lazy. Goku was clueless to what Vegeta was saying.

Adressed this in my previous post, about Super Hero (the movie) being made without the consent of the Moro and Granola arcs. Unlike the Super Hero arc in the manga, which was made after.

- In the ToP Goku got upset for C17 using his brains against the three girls transforming, this didn't happen in the manga at all.

1-Another joke moment
2-Because Ribrianne, Rosie and Kakunsa do not transform in the manga.
3-Literally 99% of the time since the original series, the heroes let the villains transform, so I don't see what's the problem here.

In the manga I don't believe they had to remind Goku to take the ToP recruitment seriously each chapter, while in the anime they had to keep reminding him.

You're talking about the recruitment, which took only 3 chapter in the manga, and 16-18 episodes in the anime? Sounds unfair to me. It's what I said before about the anime extending and exposing moments with specific characters more than the manga does.

Those are the reasons why DBS Goku manga and anime are different.

Eh, not convinced at all. If these are the reasons, then I can also say Z anime Goku is different from manga Goku only because he didn't make a sad face after he defeated Freeza. It's weak evidence imo.

[super michael]

Of course, that's why I'm not using anime filler as a comparison because that's Toei doing extra stuff. Also, the Monaka episode? That's literally a joke episode, so I don't see a reason to take it seriously.

Having Goku know Monaka was weak at the end of the episode and having Goku being smart from time wouldn't have hurt the episode. The only thing they got right was Goku doesn't know how to count.

Toyotaro doesn't make filler that makes Goku dumb.

In contrast to that, Goku also does smart things in the anime only, such as taking Vegeta's idea from the manga where he's at SSJG state and uses SSJB only for attacks. He doesn't do that in the manga, in the anime he also uses SSJB + Kaioken, which impressed Vegeta, Beerus and Whis.

The reason why Vegeta choice to do that idea was because SSB drains their ki a lot, so by switching transformation that negates the drain. Then later Goku attempts MSSB to negate the drain and use 100% of his power. So that is the reason why Goku didn't need to do Vegeta strategy.

Manga Goku realized Zamasu wanted to fuse, so he told Vegeta to attack before it was too late. So both Goku tried to stop Zamasu from fusing, they were too late. That doesn't make Goku dumb, he was still smart.

1-Another joke moment
2-Because Ribrianne, Rosie and Kakunsa do not transform in the manga.
3-Literally 99% of the time since the original series, the heroes let the villains transform, so I don't see what's the problem here.

These are the times the heroes let the villain transform freely:

- Zarbon (Vegeta was cocky)
- Freeza (Goku wanted to do it for revenge, make him swallow his pride and fight the strongest in the world)
- Cell (Vegeta let his ego get the best of him, despite Trunks wanting and trying to kill him)

[kiarasuraru]

I'll add that the while the manga tried to fix the meditation thing, it was just a band-aid at best.

Spoiler:

The whole sequence still makes Goku look pretty bad, sure, better than the meditation thing, but still pretty bad. None of this is something Goku should be saying in any way, shape or form whatsoever. It's not a lesson he should be learning at this point.
Made even worse within Super Manga context when this is something he has been "taught" within it already. From Roshi during the ToP which is what allowed him to unlock UI here and specially so from all the training with Merus for him to truly learn it.

Frankly, the whole SH arc in the manga clashes like crazy with the manga since it's an almost 1:1 of the movie, which ignore a lot of the things that happened only in the manga, and the movie already basically ignored the Super anime too and only follows the fabled Toryama Napkin Scribbles™ outline.

There's honestly no salvation.

[JulieYBM]

Whis: "Why don't you three boys have a match."

There is something so fucking gay about the gay twink saying this to the three beefy muscle men.

Huh? Gokuu? His dialogue doesn't make sense?

Yeah, no, it doesn't. Right. Yeah. Asleep at the wheel. Literally contradicts Gokuu's training as far back as, what, the Twenty-First Tenka'ichi Budoukai? The training with Karin? Easy fix for any future adaption, but still just really stupid lol

[angeldreamZ004]

Having Goku know Monaka was weak at the end of the episode and having Goku being smart from time wouldn't have hurt the episode.

Why? That's literally part of the joke, a joke that start way back when Beerus introduced Monaka, that's what Toriyama wanted.

Toyotaro doesn't make filler that makes Goku dumb.

It's not about making Goku dumb, it's because Toyotaro doesn't have to create filler, but going straight up to what's important, simple as that. You have Toei doing the filler because they wanted to continue the joke. Plus, Goku never discovers that Monaka is weak in the manga, he's still impressed by him just like he did in the anime, calling him the Universe's strongest, then the character is latter forgotten.

Spoiler:

That shows that Toyotaro didn't really do any miracle and manga DBS Goku & anime DBS Goku have the same status when it comes to his thoughts on Monaka. Idk, I just don't see what's the point of taking that filler too seriously, when it's clearly not meant to be important for a narrative, it's meant to be a joke.

The reason why Vegeta choice to do that idea was because SSB drains their ki a lot, so by switching transformation that negates the drain. Then later Goku attempts MSSB to negate the drain and use 100% of his power. So that is the reason why Goku didn't need to do Vegeta strategy.
Manga Goku realized Zamasu wanted to fuse, so he told Vegeta to attack before it was too late. So both Goku tried to stop Zamasu from fusing, they were too late. That doesn't make Goku dumb, he was still smart.

At the same time, Goku in the anime, realized that Goku Black could learn the techniques he uses. So he decides to not use the SSJB + Kaioken until he sees Fused Zamasu and notices that he can't learn his moves like Goku Black did, so he finally uses the Kaioken to overwhelm him.

These are the times the heroes let the villain transform freely:

- Zarbon (Vegeta was cocky)
- Freeza (Goku wanted to do it for revenge, make him swallow his pride and fight the strongest in the world)
- Cell (Vegeta let his ego get the best of him, despite Trunks wanting and trying to kill him)

You know there are a lot more examples for that. What about Goku allowing Majin Boo's awakening by having his fight against Majin Vegeta? Of course he had his reasons, but doesn't DBS anime Goku have his reasons as well? In the previous tournaments, Goku allowed his opponents to use all of their techniques, like Tenshinhan when he used the Kikoho. So what's the problem with Goku allowing the 3 girls who weren't even that strong to transform? They weren't even a threat. If that's a problem, then what Goku did in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai was much worse, as he wanted to fight Majunior alone instead of allowing Kami to help him.

Also that's another thing I think people do not notice about DBS Anime Goku, which is the fact that most of the time, he's only seen fighting opponents who aren't villains. In the original series, after Tenshinhan, Goku fights villains non-stop only, we do not see him fighting someone just for fun. Of course, the ToP had the threat of your universe being erased, but for him, that is no justification to see his opponents as bad guys. Or else, he should also give Majunior a different treatment, as it was a battle that would write the fate of humanity. In DBS anime we only see Goku fighting two true opponents who are genuine villains (Freeza and Zamasu) and he gives them a different treatment when compared to Beerus or those in the tournaments. He did the same thing in the original series. Plus, even against those who aren't villains, he gets angry at them, like Jiren, who tried to attack his non-combatent friends, justifying Goku's anger. He did this to Beerus as well.

Also, something I see as a good thing about Toei expanding on Goku's character in the Super anime.
Goku is worried about the U6 warriors when Champa threatens them, and he thinks about helping them, but he decides to give up the moment Beerus tells him that he should not get involved, meaning that he knows how to control himself.
That is a great dramatic anime only scene imo, it doesn't exist in the manga. That doesn't mean anime DBS Goku is more attentive than manga DBS Goku, that Goku does exist in the manga too, Toei simply decided to expand on that character of his.

Another example of Toei expanding on characters is with Gohan and Piccolo in the old anime. Remember the Garlic Jr. Saga? That was its purpose, expanding on Gohan and Piccolo's friendship and showing why Gohan became more confident. This doesn't mean these characters are different from how they are in the manga, they are also shown to behave that way in the manga. Toei just decided to expand on that.
And they decided to do the same thing to Goku in the Monaka episode. The difference is that they were just trying to make a full episode around a simple joke. That's why I don't see the point of taking it seriously.

Exactly, thank you. That's why I say that manga and anime DBS Goku are the same. That scene only feels worse in the movie because the movie was not made to adress the Moro and Granola arcs. While in the manga, we already saw Vegeta meditating prior to that arc, so the Super Hero arc adaptation was forced to adress it and "fix" that scene, making it more consistent in continuity by also having Vegeta mentioning Moro and Gas. But essentially, it's still the same thing and Goku doesn't really change. 100% agree and I do see that as one of the low points of his character in Super.

Frankly, the whole SH arc in the manga clashes like crazy with the manga since it's an almost 1:1 of the movie, which ignore a lot of the things that happened only in the manga, and the movie already basically ignored the Super anime too and only follows the fabled Toryama Napkin Scribbles™ outline.

Unfortunately that's how the Super movie and anime / manga dynamic worked while Toriyama was alive. I don't see as it being Super Hero only, DBS broly was also made to ignore the Super arcs. It adresses the ToP? Yes, but it's because Freeza became a very important character for that movie, and he made his way into a arc, so this forced the movie to talk about the ToP to explain his return. But if you pay attention, the movie is essentially a sequel to Fukkatsu no 'F', not to "Super" (Champa-Zamasu-ToP). That dynamic is further exposed with the next movie, with Super Hero working as a direct sequel to DBS Broly only. And Freeza could not appear in the movie because he again made his way into an arc and even got a new transformation (Granola saga), and it got worse because that is a manga only arc and was finished after the movie, so it would be impossible to adress it like DBS Broly did. It created a complete confusion which contributed to us seeing the Super anime on hiatus for nearly 10 years.

[super michael]

Why? That's literally part of the joke, a joke that start way back when Beerus introduced Monaka, that's what Toriyama wanted.

They made Goku completely unaware to everything that happened in the episode, no matter how obvious it was Goku couldn't figure it out. This goes against Goku in the manga that Toriyama wrote.

Then again if Toriyama is the one that doesn't want Goku to know Monaka is weak, then that is Toriyama fault.

It's not about making Goku dumb, it's because Toyotaro doesn't have to create filler, but going straight up to what's important, simple as that. You have Toei doing the filler because they wanted to continue the joke. Plus, Goku never discovers that Monaka is weak in the manga, he's still impressed by him just like he did in the anime, calling him the Universe's strongest, then the character is latter forgotten.

That shows that Toyotaro didn't really do any miracle and manga DBS Goku & anime DBS Goku have the same status when it comes to his thoughts on Monaka. Idk, I just don't see what's the point of taking that filler too seriously, when it's clearly not meant to be important for a narrative, it's meant to be a joke.

You are correct that Goku never found out Monaka was weak, I think the only one that knows is Piccolo in the manga.
Toei doing jokes isn't a bad thing, but Toei went overboard with their joke which got old and annoying.

At the same time, Goku in the anime, realized that Goku Black could learn the techniques he uses. So he decides to not use the SSJB + Kaioken until he sees Fused Zamasu and notices that he can't learn his moves like Goku Black did, so he finally uses the Kaioken to overwhelm him.

I will admit DBS anime Goku was smart to prevent Goku Black from power up, by avoiding the Kaioken technique.

You know there are a lot more examples for that. What about Goku allowing Majin Boo's awakening by having his fight against Majin Vegeta? Of course he had his reasons, but doesn't DBS anime Goku have his reasons as well? In the previous tournaments, Goku allowed his opponents to use all of their techniques, like Tenshinhan when he used the Kikoho. So what's the problem with Goku allowing the 3 girls who weren't even that strong to transform? They weren't even a threat. If that's a problem, then what Goku did in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai was much worse, as he wanted to fight Majunior alone instead of allowing Kami to help him.

With Majin Buu there was better plans that Goku could have done to prevent Buu from reviving, but we have to see it from Goku point of view. Goku wouldn't know about these factors:

- How much ki does Buu need to revive
- How much and how fast does SSJ3 drain his time on earth

Those are unknown elements that Goku doesn't know. He doesn't know if Buu was close or far getting unsealed. As for Goku fighting Vegeta, that was to prevent Vegeta from killing more innocent people. He doesn't like seeing and hearing innocent people killed.

If you mean Tenshinhan in the 22nd Martial Art Tournament, Goku chose to dodge it by jumping. I don't see anything wrong here, since by Tenshinhan using Kikoho, that drained a lot of energy while getting zero damage, that is an advantage towards Goku.
In the 23rd Martial Art Tournament Goku didn't want any help, since he didn't want to get disqualified. Goku wanted to beat Piccolo and win the tournament at the same time, so Goku had his reason for not wanting any help. Goku was trying to win the tournament since the 21st and 22nd.
In the ToP anyone can attack anyone without restriction, so Goku complaining about C17 was dumb.

Against Recoome on Namek Goku prevent him from using his ultimate technique, he didn't want to see it at all. Goku said he was wide open, that is why he attacked.

Also that's another thing I think people do not notice about DBS Anime Goku, which is the fact that most of the time, he's only seen fighting opponents who aren't villains. In the original series, after Tenshinhan, Goku fights villains non-stop only, we do not see him fighting someone just for fun. Of course, the ToP had the threat of your universe being erased, but for him, that is no justification to see his opponents as bad guys. Or else, he should also give Majunior a different treatment, as it was a battle that would write the fate of humanity. In DBS anime we only see Goku fighting two true opponents who are genuine villains (Freeza and Zamasu) and he gives them a different treatment when compared to Beerus or those in the tournaments. He did the same thing in the original series. Plus, even against those who aren't villains, he gets angry at them, like Jiren, who tried to attack his non-combatent friends, justifying Goku's anger. He did this to Beerus as well.

So you are saying that when Goku is fighting someone who isn't a villain, then Goku wants to see everything that they have. Sometimes there are advantages to letting a fighter do their most powerful technique, since it can leave them wide open and weaken them a lot if their technique fails to defeat their opponent or get their opponent.

Tenshinhan Kikoho and Multi-Form Technique, Piccolo giant form and explosion they gave Goku the advantage. Plus it helps that Goku was one of the few that knew how to sense ki.

Also, something I see as a good thing about Toei expanding on Goku's character in the Super anime.
Goku is worried about the U6 warriors when Champa threatens them, and he thinks about helping them, but he decides to give up the moment Beerus tells him that he should not get involved, meaning that he knows how to control himself.
That is a great dramatic anime only scene imo, it doesn't exist in the manga. That doesn't mean anime DBS Goku is more attentive than manga DBS Goku, that Goku does exist in the manga too, Toei simply decided to expand on that character of his.

Another example of Toei expanding on characters is with Gohan and Piccolo in the old anime. Remember the Garlic Jr. Saga? That was its purpose, expanding on Gohan and Piccolo's friendship and showing why Gohan became more confident. This doesn't mean these characters are different from how they are in the manga, they are also shown to behave that way in the manga. Toei just decided to expand on that.
And they decided to do the same thing to Goku in the Monaka episode. The difference is that they were just trying to make a full episode around a simple joke. That's why I don't see the point of taking it seriously.

I did like Goku reaction in DBS anime in Universe 6 vs Universe 7 and when Jiren tried to kill his friends. I like it when the expansion are good.
DBZ filler episode expanded on the character story, which is something that I enjoyed.

Maybe the Monaka episode isn't that bad, but since there are many scenes and episode that makes Goku look bad, then that doesn't help at all.

Exactly, thank you. That's why I say that manga and anime DBS Goku are the same. That scene only feels worse in the movie because the movie was not made to adress the Moro and Granola arcs. While in the manga, we already saw Vegeta meditating prior to that arc, so the Super Hero arc adaptation was forced to adress it and "fix" that scene, making it more consistent in continuity by also having Vegeta mentioning Moro and Gas. But essentially, it's still the same thing and Goku doesn't really change. 100% agree and I do see that as one of the low points of his character in Super.

In the Cell Saga, Trunks tells Goku that Vegeta was standing for 3 days, Goku says that Vegeta is a genius and that he is starting to see beyond Super Saiyan.
Goku in the ROSAT he unlocks Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 through meditation. In the Buu Saga we see Goku meditates.

So even though the movie doesn't address Moro and Granola arcs, they completely ignored the Cell and Buu Saga. The movie ignores Goku experience with power efficiency, which Goku could trick the scouters on Namek.
I get what you mean that the manga didn't fix everything.

The whole sequence still makes Goku look pretty bad, sure, better than the meditation thing, but still pretty bad. None of this is something Goku should be saying in any way, shape or form whatsoever. It's not a lesson he should be learning at this point.
Made even worse within Super Manga context when this is something he has been "taught" within it already. From Roshi during the ToP which is what allowed him to unlock UI here and specially so from all the training with Merus for him to truly learn it.

Frankly, the whole SH arc in the manga clashes like crazy with the manga since it's an almost 1:1 of the movie, which ignore a lot of the things that happened only in the manga, and the movie already basically ignored the Super anime too and only follows the fabled Toryama Napkin Scribbles™ outline.

There's honestly no salvation.

I guess being better doesn't make it good, it is still bad. Vegeta believes he is inferior compared to Broly in ki and spirit control, which doesn't make sense since Broly at that point in time goes berserk. Even with all that power, he couldn't kill anyone.

Goku needing Master Roshi to remind him of everything he learned wasn't good, why would he forget when he has Whis teaching Goku. If Goku achieved UI by remembering everything he learned, then it doesn't make sense why he lost access to UI to begin with. In the anime the reason why Goku gained UI was that he broke his limit and transformed by accident, so it make sense why he lost access to the form. He could never transform at will.

[angeldreamZ004]

They made Goku completely unaware to everything that happened in the episode, no matter how obvious it was Goku couldn't figure it out. This goes against Goku in the manga that Toriyama wrote.
You are correct that Goku never found out Monaka was weak, I think the only one that knows is Piccolo in the manga.

Toei doing jokes isn't a bad thing, but Toei went overboard with their joke which got old and annoying.

Maybe the Monaka episode isn't that bad, but since there are many scenes and episode that makes Goku look bad, then that doesn't help at all.

I understand that you dislike it, it can be annoying indeed, but that's not my point. I think the issue is that you're looking at it from an in-universe perspective only, but not considering the production side of it as well.
For example, you previously said that it wouldn't have hurt the episode if it had Goku discovering that Monaka is weak, right? Well, I disagree, that would only have made things worse. Because okay, you would have Goku being “smart” and discovering the truth in the anime. But eventually, you would have Toei having to follow Toriyama's outlines and ideas. And what Toriyama had in his mind two arcs later was this:

Spoiler:

That means, the anime would end up contradicting itself, if Toei included this detail, it would go against what they established about Goku being aware of Monaka being weak.

It would be just like what Toei did many times in the old anime continuity, remember? When Kame Sennin explains the lore behind Kami and the DBs. When the DB anime tries to introduce us to Spiritual Dimension prior to the Saiyajin Saga. When Kaio explains the Saiyajin lore mentioning the Tsufurujins and Planet Vegeta's Kami destroying the planet by attracting asteroids.

This is all Toei trying to explain and expand too much on certain aspects of Dragon Ball before Toriyama actually did his version of the story. We all saw the contradictions that this created. With Goku discovering about Monaka being weak, it would result in the same thing, unless Toei decided to ignore that, but it would create a divergence between anime and manga DBS Goku, where anime Goku would be “smarter” because he discovered the truth about him, but not manga Goku.

Whether you like it or not, I think this shows that in Super, Toei tried to be more careful in regards to expanding the universe beyond what Toriyama had in mind, in contrast to what they did back in the 80 / 90s, where they were lucky that Toriyama disappeared with characters such as the Pilaf Gang, Tao Pai Pai and Lunch, so they could do anything with them in the anime. But there were times they weren't so lucky. They at least did continue with some of their concepts, such as Chaozu and Tenshinhan remembering that their first encounter with Goku was in a filler episode.
You can say that Toei could've done something like this in Super, I think I remember that Copy Vegeta is referenced in the Zamasu arc. But overall Toei tried to take less risks when compared to the old anime.

Super already has too many inconsistencies, and the anime has the differences as a result of them deciding to be ahead of the manga instead of waiting for it to be the reference. Sure, some ideas can sound exaggerated, but they are essentially just the way they interpreted Toriyama's outline as there was no manga as basis. SSJB Kaioken is basically the equivalent to the manga concept of the SSJB draining too much energy, that's why SSJB is used so often in the anime when compared to the manga, where they have to alternate between it and SSJG since the Champa.
You could say that this creates an inconsistency in the anime though, as anime SSJB is supposed to work like manga SSJG, so there's no reason for anime Goku to alternate between SSJG and SSJB, that's a “retcon” in the anime. At least I view it this way.

Then again if Toriyama is the one that doesn't want Goku to know Monaka is weak, then that is Toriyama fault.

Exactly. Sure, you can blame Toei for creating a filler episode focused on that joke, saying that it was unnecessary. But at least they did their homework when it comes to not going too far to the point of contradicting what Toriyama established. The joke managed to continue into the ToP in both the anime and the manga.

In the Cell Saga, Trunks tells Goku that Vegeta was standing for 3 days, Goku says that Vegeta is a genius and that he is starting to see beyond Super Saiyan.
Goku in the ROSAT he unlocks Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3 through meditation. In the Buu Saga we see Goku meditates.

So even though the movie doesn't address Moro and Granola arcs, they completely ignored the Cell and Buu Saga. The movie ignores Goku experience with power efficiency, which Goku could trick the scouters on Namek.
I get what you mean that the manga didn't fix everything.

Yeah about that I know but in that case it's not the Super Hero saga or movie only, it would be in Super as a whole that's why there are people who complain that DBS Goku (both anime and manga) is a negative regression on the character. It's a side effect of Toriyama trying to give him a new arc of spiritual learning, as a result, he forgets things established in the original series. It's similar to him trying to connect Super to EoZ and consequently having a lot of plot holes and contradictions later on.

Honestly, given how we are aware of the forgetful nature Toriyama had, I don't think it's that bad that he forgot about things he wrote 30 years ago (now nearly 40). The problem is that Super also contradicts…well, Super itself lol.

I'll now even oppose what I said in my previous posts. The manga version of that scene is actually worse than the movie version. The reason is because, it's throughout the Super arcs that we get a deeper look on Goku and Vegeta's training. Super Hero is a direct sequel to DBS Broly, which is supposed to be a direct sequel to Fukkatsu no ‘F’. In that movie we do see Goku and Vegeta training with Whis, but that is almost nothing when compared to what is seen in Super (anime / manga). The movies are meant to follow that simpler view of a vanilla Super, which is one of the main reasons we don't see Goku using the UI against Broly for example. Before you say “But Vegeta mentions Jiren”, it was because they needed to make a reference to the ToP in order to give context and remind the audience of what they saw in the anime, since Freeza is also mentioned in the anime. It's the same strategy used by DBS Broly.
The advanced spiritual training Goku and Vegeta go through is mostly a “Deluxe Super” thing only, seen in the arcs, the movies weren't made with the arcs in mind, especially Super Hero which was made before the Granola arc was finished and while Toyotaro was working in the Moro arc.

Super Hero the arc was made with the Moro and Granola arcs in mind, and those arcs follow all of the development Goku had prior to Broly. That means, the manga had an even bigger responsibility of making Goku not acting that way with Vegeta and Whis than the movie had, so by consequence the manga version is worse than the movie, despite his reaction in the movie sounding more exaggerated.

Goku needing Master Roshi to remind him of everything he learned wasn't good, why would he forget when he has Whis teaching Goku. If Goku achieved UI by remembering everything he learned, then it doesn't make sense why he lost access to UI to begin with. In the anime the reason why Goku gained UI was that he broke his limit and transformed by accident, so it make sense why he lost access to the form. He could never transform at will.

You brought up a very good interesting point here. I'll go deeper into the differences though because I think there's a part to this you missed, not to say that you're wrong, but to add to what you said.

Prior to the ToP, the anime and manga follow different developments leading to the UI.
In the anime, it works more around the “instinct” part, with anime only scenes that hint on something “mysterious” that Goku can't control and comes naturally from his body “independently” predicting what he's thinking and he's completely unaware about it. That's why there's that scene during his fight against Beerus. It's an anime only scene. Or even when Toei expands in that concept, such as the episode where Hit tries to kill him, or when he avoids Bulma's slap (which are other examples of Toei doing good things in anime filler imo)
That's why people associate the form to “limit break” in the anime, it is pretty clear about that, that's why he activates by accident and needs to go through 3 fights to finally master it. It's similar to when he awakens the SSJ for the first time. Or better, the SSJ against Slug, or his Oozaru form in the early series. It's not meant to be just “training”. Goku activities it for the third time because of his emotional push, which was the same from the first two awakenings, the feeling that he can't lose or else all his friends will disappear. So the moment he “defeated” Jiren, that feeling disappears, disconnecting his body from that mission. Thus, making him unable to transform again because he already pushed his body to his limit and the form wasted too much energy.

Manga relies more on the “mental” part, and its full connection to training. A “familiar” state that is more active in Goku's goal and improvement, even though he doesn't really have the form in mind, he's under the appropriate training for it (Whis), but needs the emotional push from Roshi to be able to tap into it. That's why he masters it with a single fight, we do not even see a visual indication of him surprised with the form, which is something the anime does. It's more akin to the forms we got after the Freeza saga, such as the SSJ1 variations, SSJ2, 3 for example, where the characters were aware about the power ups, just had to go through the path to achieve them. Manga is clear about Goku not keeping the form for enough time to beat Jiren, because he still requires training, and not because of emotion like the anime showed. And that later continues into the Moro arc with Merus, etc. That's why he specifically has to keep his mind calm the two times he transforms. It's treated as training.

While in the anime it's something required from the critical situation, like how Goku vs Freeza and Gohan vs Cell required SSJ1 and SSJ2.

That's just me explaining though. I do agree that the anime makes a gradual better execution of the concept. Especially because both the anime and manga follow the structure of achieving the consciousness state where Goku controls his emotions. The anime does that, we see that after Goku transforms against Jiren for the second time, it feels like that he's already used to it and that‘s why he masters it (White hair). He only loses access to it because it happens right after he unleashes his fury on Jiren.

I do like the scene with Roshi in the manga, but it's indeed weird given how it comes “out of nowhere” as if it's supposed to be something we've already seen (which you can justify with the anime showing it nearly a year prior to the manga lol but that's not what I mean) while both us and Goku get the emotional nostalgic push. But it lacks enough build up we needed for that and understanding the form, and the emotional part is not explored like it is in the anime because it's part of Goku's training.

In the anime Goku uses UI three times, all throughout the three battles he's constantly learning on how the form works. Consequently, the audience also learns together, and understands why he lost access to it.
The manga interprets it as if he could access it on free will, but then he says that he can't transform anymore, leaving the audience to figure out why he lost access to it by themselves (similar to Gohan's Ultimate Form).

It's even weirder how Beerus is not so surprised in the anime when Goku uses it, he expresses himself in a way that he clearly already expected to see Goku mastering it. While in the manga he seemed completely clueless about it when Goku transformed. So the build up in the manga makes even less sense because of that.

I believe this also happens because Toriyama (or Toyotaro, or both, whoever, I believe it's more Toriyama though) worked with Super focused more around the training aspect of the arcs, all of them, not only the tournaments.
The anime tried to build more on drama, that's why the Hype / Spectacle moments are mostly there only.
But while Toriyama tried to be consistent, we still see that problem in the manga that you mentioned.

So for the sake of it, I’ll also blame the Super Anime / Manga x Movies dynamic for this again (something i've been doing constantly), and maybe, Toyotaro, I'll explain below.

Both the anime and the manga end up the ToP with Goku saying that he lost access to UI. In the manga, that is only two pages after the “Broly summary”.

In Broly, we do not see Goku using UI at all, not even a mention of it. Which makes sense with that ending of the ToP, but it makes even more sense with the anime, because we see how Goku couldn't control it, and accessed it by accident like you said.

In the manga though, it feels weird because it suggests that he learned how to access it.

But the ToP is an arc. The arcs have to follow what is dictated by the movies.
Toyotaro was working in the manga ToP while Toriyama had already very likely finished DBS Broly. Meaning that his outlines for the ToP have long been finished prior to 2018.
Basically

Toriyama works on Broly and ToP stories > Toriyama makes Broly a sequel to Fukkatsu No ‘F’ > Toriyama has to connect Broly to the ToP because of Freeza > Toriyama doesn't want UI Goku in Broly > Toriyama makes Goku lose access to UI in ToP > Goku not using UI against Broly is justified.

This is where the manga enters. Unlike the anime, Goku doesn't lose access to UI in the ToP, at least not completely, the justification isn't as good as in the anime, which feels weird, as the justification is supposed to make the arc connect itself to Broly.

That makes me think of one thing. Maybe it was Toyotaro's fault. Toyotaro fully embraced the training arc of the UI instead of the “surprise” from the anime, but he also had to follow Toriyama's outlines. But Toyotaro also decided to give his own take on UI. Which is what resulted in the inconsistency. Toyotaro wasn't aware of the Broly movie. And given how the manga has to follow the movies, he ended up having to also include “Goku lost access to it” as part of his view on UI's development or else the manga would not connect to the movie.

You can even connect to this the fact that the Moro arc as a whole was mostly Toyotaro's idea, this could be the reason why UI is a very important component of that arc, maybe it was Toyotaro trying to fix his mistake, which was developing UI way too much in the ToP to the point it ended up contradicting Broly.

This is just a hypothesis though, I know no evidence for Toyotaro being the one responsible for that take on UI in the manga ToP.

There's evidence to support that Toriyama was the one responsible for the Goku and Vegeta scene in Super Hero though. Maybe it was only present in the manga as well because Toyotaro had to follow Toriyama's script, despite it contradicting the arc written by himself (Moro), if Toyotaro rewrote the Super Hero arc for the manga example, maybe that scene would've been different. But what he could do at best was making Vegeta mention Moro, Granola, remember about Black Freeza, and do a few little changes here and there, but not exactly change the meaning behind, that's why Goku feels less dismissive on Vegeta's training in the manga, but it's essentially still the same thing, because Toriyama wanted that scene to be that way.

That's only speculation though. But I think there's good evidence to support the view that Toriyama worked with the “Super Movie Continuity” in a way that he made it independent from the “Super Arc Continuity”, but the latter was also highly influenced by the former, the balance wasn't fair for the two sides. That's why we see the inconsistencies mentioned above (Goku losing UI, The Goku and Vegeta scene from Super Hero, plus, other stuff such as SSJB Kaioken and SSJB Evolution not showing up in Broly)

[rweasp]

Lamest thing for me will always be the boring and completely lazy recolour and palette swap that is SSGSS. For a form that is so prevalent in the franchise now, it's actually pretty embarrassing and bereft of any creativity and, as much as it pains me to say this, pretty typical of what you would expect from modern Toriyama who wanted to do the least amount of work possible. It isn't interesting in the slightest and gives off negative corporate "how many toys can we sell with this" vibes. Actually to be honest, I have no clue who designed it (Toyo or Toriyama), but the end result has always rubbed me the wrong way.

[SupremeKai25]

Lamest thing for me will always be the boring and completely lazy recolour and palette swap that is SSGSS. For a form that is so prevalent in the franchise now, it's actually pretty embarrassing and bereft of any creativity and, as much as it pains me to say this, pretty typical of what you would expect from modern Toriyama who wanted to do the least amount of work possible. It isn't interesting in the slightest and gives off negative corporate "how many toys can we sell with this" vibes. Actually to be honest, I have no clue who designed it (Toyo or Toriyama), but the end result has always rubbed me the wrong way.

The Blue aura looks totally different from the Red one. Modern forms might be "recolors" in terms of hairstyle, but the modern CGI auras are unique to each form. SSG's fiery, blazing aura is totally different from SSB's one, where the flames are more controlled and condensed; which in turn is quite different from Ultra Instinct's nigh-angelic aura.

I would recommend people who dislike the "recolors" to pay more attention to the CGI auras because they are quite detailed and iconic. Don't stop at the hair, look at the design in its entirety. You might discover that these forms have more detail and depth than you believed.

[angeldreamZ004]

I have no clue who designed it (Toyo or Toriyama)

Toriyama

Spoiler:

The only form designed by Toyotaro was Ultra Ego

The Blue aura looks totally different from the Red one. Modern forms might be "recolors" in terms of hairstyle, but the modern CGI auras are unique to each form. SSG's fiery, blazing aura is totally different from SSB's one, where the flames are more controlled and condensed; which in turn is quite different from Ultra Instinct's nigh-angelic aura.

I would recommend people who dislike the "recolors" to pay more attention to the CGI auras because they are quite detailed and iconic. Don't stop at the hair, look at the design in its entirety. You might discover that these forms have more detail and depth than you believed.

Because a lot of fans are just about forms that makes drastic changes to the appearance and making the characters steonger. Looking beyond just the designs is what will actually make someone enjoy the Super forms, it's at least my case.

If people actually try to understand why the SSJB exists, the recolor makes a lot of sense, as the form represents Goku and Vegeta trying to have a power boost that is above the SSJ God, they notice that the god ki allows them to get stronger than any of their regular golden haired forms, so they discover about becoming somehow physically stronger than the red form by using their natural transformations. So those who say that the “Ultra Instinct” is the evolution to SSJ God are correct actually, SSJB is not a evolution to SSJ God, it's simply Goku and Vegeta mixing SSG / God Ki with the regular Saiyajin transformation in order to become stronger, which is what they like to do, that's why it's a recolor.

We even see how every time (at least in the anime) that Goku and Vegeta transform into SSJG, they are calm, while when they transform into SSJB, it's more akin to the power ups in the original series, with them screaming or doing the “ki charging” pose, this shows that SSJB represents Goku and Vegeta finding their own ways of becoming stronger after learning how to tap the god ki, and how they immediately decided to use it against the next opponents instead of perfecting it or waiting to achieve the actual evolutions to their divine path (UI and UE)

People who will hate them for being recolors are very much more used to seeing new forms being more similar to SSJ3 or 4, but the former especially had nothing more to it than just its cool design. Different tastes exist, but when reading / watching Super people should stop thinking about those kinds of forms and think more about the original SSJ1, its variations and the SSJ2. The Super forms are much more akin to those Pre-Boo arc transformations, they didn't have a drastic change in design, they had deep complex concepts. If people just think about the design, it won't make sense for them.

[kiarasuraru]

Zero fashion at all whatsoever. One of the coolest nicest most interesting details of Dragon Ball was how everyone was always getting a new outfit, new hairstyle, new look, etc on every arc, every new appearance. Which is actually pretty crazy in hindsight when changing a character design like that is a "risky business" in this industry. You only see it happening on the "middle of the series big happening timeskip woooooooow look guys the main character went from 14 to 16 things are getting SERIOUS now, now they can say f**k!".

Bulma keeping the same fucking design through all of the Super era is a crime against humanity. I HATE that fuck-ass early 20th century top-hat gentleman comb-over hairstyle and/or bootleg Trunks bowl-cut. Not even in fucking Daima they gave her a new hairstyle.

I hate how they went and dropped the Whis Gis for the sake of the going back to the Cell Saga outfits. It's lazy, it's cheap, it further shows how everything is done first and foremost for the sake of recognizability and marketability. How nothing can't truly ever move on and how status quo is king.
The worst part is that the Whis Gi on Heroes, which is the same thing but with an undershirt, is GORGEOUS. Vegeta is forever doomed to look like ass because the Blue hair just simply will never mix well with the jumpsuit blue though, they should've kept that one gray there on Heroes. Xeno Goku outfit is gorgeous too by the way.