Would removing Neva's macguffin Super Saiyan 4 fix Daima for you?

[super michael]

If your argument is "GT Goku had to struggle and bleed to get SSJ4", then the exact same argument applies to Daima Goku. He wasn't just handed the form on a silver platter. He first had to struggle, suffer, and bleed trying to fight Gomah in lesser forms. He was literally on the ground, beaten and exhausted, when Neva appeared with his magic.

I like how GT and Daima Goku gained their SSJ4 transformation and I don't have any problem with magic being used. I just wanted to point out there was more than just GT Goku getting his tail pulled out.

[SupremeKai25]

If your argument is "GT Goku had to struggle and bleed to get SSJ4", then the exact same argument applies to Daima Goku. He wasn't just handed the form on a silver platter. He first had to struggle, suffer, and bleed trying to fight Gomah in lesser forms. He was literally on the ground, beaten and exhausted, when Neva appeared with his magic.

I like how GT and Daima Goku gained their SSJ4 transformation and I don't have any problem with magic being used. I just wanted to point out there was more than just GT Goku getting his tail pulled out.

Just like there's more to Daima SSJ4 that simply "getting a McGuffin from Neva". That's not the only thing that happened. He didn't just show up and get handed the form on a silver platter. He was given the form only after getting slaughtered by Gomah in his lower forms. Daima Goku still struggled to get his new form; it just wasn't a drawn-out snorefest like GT Goku. It wasn't interesting at all to have the "epic fight between Baby and Uub" constantly cut back to Goku getting his tail pulled out of his ass.

[angeldreamZ004]

Dragon Ball transformations on average aren't well-planned and are introduced suddenly. The forms with the most build-up and foreshadowing are probbly Ultra Instinct (foreshadowed since RoF, aka 3 arcs earlier) and the original SSJ1. "McGuffins" are ingrained in the Dragon Ball DNA and people should just embrace it. In a way, that's what makes Dragon Ball so charming. Things often happen randomly

I disagree with this, almost all of the transformations in the series do get a build up to them. What you said only applies to very specific forms or a few variations. But even the most underdeveloped forms have something leading up to them.

Oozaru - Goku being somehow stronger than everyone + having a monkey tail + Not looking at a full moon during the night.
SSJ - The Legend + Kuririn's death.
SSJ Variations - Training in the ROSAT to go beyond SSJ1
SSJ2 - Training in the ROSAT + Gohan being the savior + Everyone suffering at the Cell Games
Ultimate - Training with Kaioshin
SSJ4 (GT) - Goku's tail grows again + Golden Oozaru
SSJ4 (Daima) - Neva + Goku trying to go beyond SSJ3
God - Beerus’ Prophecy + Saiyajin Ritual / Yamoshi Legend
Blue - Goku's ability to use the God Ki without transforming into a SSJ + Training with Whis
UI - Contact with superior entities + Training with Angels
UE - Training with Whis + Training with Beerus + Vegeta's New Character Development
Broly's Ikari & SSJ1 - Broly's power increasing constantly + Losing control to his fury + Paragus’ Death
Orange Piccolo - Shenlong unlocking Piccolo's potential (he even has the deep dimples when he's looking at the mirror)
Beast - Piccolo telling that Gohan has to use his full power, that the Ultimate form is not his limit.

Some of the forms that do come out of nowhere are more of a anime only thing for example, such as Trunks SSJ rage in Super Anime, or Broly's LSSJ in DBS, but in the latter's case, we have to understand the production side of it, as it was Shintani's idea, Toriyama didn't have the LSSJ (or Full Power SSJ) in his mind when working in the movie, so the Golden Haired SSJ was meant to be the equivalent to LSSJ in his head, that's why the LSSJ comes out of nowhere in the movie. (Plus, in the flashbacks from the manga, Broly is seen as SSJ only, further exposing Toriyama's idea that the LSSJ was not supposed to exist)

SSJ3 is the only universal form in the series that genuinely has no build up prior to its first appearance. I know Goku had his reasons to not use it against Vegeta, but that don't erase the fact that the fight against Majin Vegeta or anything prior to Goku meeting up with Babidi and Boo leave no hints to Goku having a new form, it truly comes out as a surprise, and okay, that was Toriyama's decision, but it goes against the narrative structure of introducing forms that he showed prior to the Boo Saga and after it as well, it's not random.

That said, I think Vegeta had the best introduction to SSJ3 in the entire franchise so far, Goku's was a surprise, Gotenks trained, but it also came as a surprise for us. With Vegeta, we actually saw his struggle, and how his fight against Tamagami N.2 was pushing him to go beyond SSJ2. So his SSJ3 ends up being the best from a narrative view point for that reason imo. I think Goku's introduction to SSJ4 also is superior to SSJ3 in the Boo arc for similar reasons, especially because of Neva's supernatural finger on it. The reveal that came later with Goku saying that he was training but wasn't sure that he could transform also adds more substance to the form than simply coming as a full surprise, even though I continue not liking it, I think in Vegeta's case, it was deserved, unlike Goku and Gotenks, which I believe was akin to Goten and Present Trunks getting the SSJ1.

Before Elder Kaioshin pulled Goku tail, Goku was grinding coffee as a way for his tail to grow. Technically pulling Goku tail was so he could turn into his Oozaru form, Goku gaining SSJ4 was from gaining control of his Super Oozaru form. Goku never had control of Oozaru form, he always lost control of himself.

If your argument is "GT Goku had to struggle and bleed to get SSJ4", then the exact same argument applies to Daima Goku. He wasn't just handed the form on a silver platter. He first had to struggle, suffer, and bleed trying to fight Gomah in lesser forms. He was literally on the ground, beaten and exhausted, when Neva appeared with his magic.
Just like there's more to Daima SSJ4 that simply "getting a McGuffin from Neva". That's not the only thing that happened. He didn't just show up and get handed the form on a silver platter. He was given the form only after getting slaughtered by Gomah in his lower forms. Daima Goku still struggled to get his new form.

So I agree with what you two said here, the only problem is that I think Neva clearly had the potential to be the central figure of a training arc / subplot in Daima, working as a master for Goku to achieve this new power up in a more deep way just like how he got some of his new techniques and other forms. But ended up not happening, I think Neva also being behind this power could give the opportunity to make more clear that the form was linked to the Makai and could not be used in the Mortal Reality, but that's just me desiring Daima to be completely connected to Super, but well, they decided to make it vague instead.
While my problem with GT SSJ4 is not exactly with the transformation but how it exposes that GT lacks the core element of Dragon Ball that contributes to the characters getting stronger. Goku should not stay as a kid after acquiring the SSJ4 imo. Which I think something Daima did right, SSJ4 had its mini version and Goku later accessed it on free will as a adult, and had its supernatural origins.

[Zephyr]

The problem is Goten, who's still feels very much like Trunks' sidekick to me and I also think no one was really able to make his character work independently. Even when he had his big dramatic moment which was Chichi's Death to Super Boo, right after it, he was only really there to fuse with Trunks and do nothing more after it. In the old Z movies focused on the duo (Broly 2 & 3), Trunks was still the one moving the story forward while he was only there to assist. Same goes for the Jelly Arc or the very early filler in the Super anime. Aside from fusion he's pretty much obsolete in Z Movie 13, where Trunks is like, literally the protagonist alongside Tapion and Goku. In GT, Trunks is the one who travels to space with the rest of the trio lol.
It makes me wonder what Toyotaro actually plans to do with this character, as he showed interest. Not even Toriyama and Toei managed to make him his own "individually developed character", and neither Toyotaro himself did in his Highschool arc, so...

Yeah, that is interesting. Even Gotenks kind of feels like more an extension of Trunks specifically than a combination of the two, with how little Goten is presented or developed as an independent character. In a way, Goten is functionally like the Chaozu to Trunks' Tenshinhan. Not really much of an independent character, mostly just the secondary part of an iconic pair. I think Kibito also comes to mind to an extent.

[Mr Baggins]

I think Neva had a huge potential to be the central figure of the “training” arc of the series, he could've been Daima's equivalent to what Roshi-Karin-Kamisama-Kaio-Beerus-Whis-Merus were for Goku.

Apologies, I just noticed your post.

I actually appreciate that Neva was a bystander, since that plays into his arc. His role was to observe the heroes after centuries of playing host to an oppressive government, which occasionally nudges him just enough to lend a helping hand of his own so he can continue to watch these events unfold. It pays off because his faith in the Demon Realm is restored after seeing that people are willing to fight for change without self-serving incentives and actually accomplish said change in the process.

Daima, like much of the original artist's version of Dragon Ball, has a lot of great subtextual elements to glean from the text if you're interested enough to analyze them.

Pan was unlucky for being choosen to be one of the main characters of a sequel series that lacked one of the main cores that make Dragon Ball work, the consequence was she becoming a “damsel in distress” because the show keeps her weak due to it failing to give her a “path to strength” of her own, which is something the other characters also lacked, but they had a much shorter screen time, so they can't be criticized as much.

Well, that's truly the heart of what I was getting at. Pan is little more than a misogynistic caricature because the writers weren't interested in making her anything more, by their own admission. Whatever development her character was given if you really wanted to stretch everything doesn't constitute enough of an arc to justify her largely unchanging behavior and role. The point of her storyline isn't even the same as Vegeta's "even the lowest scum can be redeemed", so the audience ends up with an annoying protagonist that doesn't actually contribute much outside of annoyingly sexist tropes. It's hackneyed writing.

Of course, all of GT is hackneyed. As you alluded earlier, anyone that dislikes Pan will more than likely also dislike the show in general because A) being one of its main protagonists nets her a ton of screentime, and B) the show mishandles its whole cast from beginning to end. Pan at least had the benefit of being a mostly blank slate by GT's production because she wasn't as well-established as the rest, and the writers STILL couldn't get that shit right. Koyama's movies are more watchable in comparison.

But for me, she's honestly a drop in the bucket compared to GT's laundry list of problems. It would be unfair of me to argue that she alone is the reason for its countless failings, but she absolutely is a part of them. I guess her character design is cool.

[kemuri07]

The best thing I can say about GT is that it has a bunch of neat ideas, and I like that it provides a definitive ending for both its characters and the franchise in general.

I just wished I actually liked watching GT. Maybe in another 5 years I'll give it another go.

[super michael]

GT Pan being written as a damsel was bad, there is no changing that. However Pan helping Goku kill Oceanus Shenron was cool. Pan helping Goku gain control of his Oozaru form was really good, she showed how brave she was. She matured a lot in GT from her adventure in space.

Remind me what did Goten and Trunks do in DBS? Nothing, since they were written to be forbidden from doing anything. Even in DBS Super Hero they couldn't get their signature move right.

GT Pan > DBS Goten and Trunks

[Cipher]

Daima's issues run deeper than its climax, though that certainly doesn't help anything.

Remove the (inconsequential, which is a problem) Super Saiyan 4 from the story, and you still have a more weakly paced and characterized, pointlessly overcrowded version of a fun party adventure story Toriyama has successfully personally scripted in more condensed formats many times and that constantly undercuts its own narrative tension, world-building logic, and invitation for the reader to feel engaged with its storytelling despite/along with the silliness, which was always Dragon Ball's strength.

[angeldreamZ004]

Holy damn I always thought that Gotenks was somehow a lot more about Trunks than Goten, now that you said he's like an extension of Trunks’ character I can't unfeel it lol.
I partially agree with the comparison to Chaozu, As I think Chaozu had a little more to offer especially if you take his fight against Kuririn, where we get a good impression of his confidence and arrogance but also his side where he can easily get scared or confused, leading to him sabotaging Goku but then deciding to give up because he trusts Tenshinhan as a friend. His sacrifice against Nappa, an act of courage decided by him that goes against his old days of just following orders from Tsuru Sennin, which I consider a great end for his character arc, so I think there was more to his character for these reasons.

Goten in comparison, aside from when Chichi was killed, I think only had something close to this both when he met Goku for the first time and when Goku had to return to Afterlife, where we see how timid and emotional he is, but other than that, it's always Trunks' sidekick, and like you said in a previous post, Gohan was dropped very quickly. Goten as well, but it was worse because it was in the same arc that introduced him, unlike Gohan who had 3 arcs and a half worth of development lol

I thought about including Puar but characters like him have the advantage of nothing being fighters, smaller roles maybe not good for comparison.

At least GT gave Goten a girlfriend.

But that is a very lackluster comparison to be made and the reason is exactly what yourself wrote, they were written to be forbidden from doing anything.
Like, how do you expect that comparison to work? It's like trying to compare Piccolo's development in the original series to Yamcha's late development (or the lack of it), obviously Piccolo's development will be better, there's no comparison. Goten and Trunks do not play a major role in almost the entirety of Super. Battle of Gods at best they were given a secondary to minor role, contributing to slice of life moments with Pilaf Gang, using fusion against Beerus and then helping in the SSJG ritual.

The Highschool Super Hero Prequel and Epilogue stories are mostly Slice of Life only as well, the most important parts would be the climax and the part where they train with Gohan, though it's not really development for two characters, but just one instead, but this is a problem that already started back in the Boo Saga, if you saw what me and Zephyr were talking about you’ll need no context lol, regardless of it, it's still quite short.

Another problem, it's two legacy characters in Super, that weren't given a major role, compared to one who, despite being introduced at the very end of the original series, it's still technically a new character in GT, who was given a major role, GT Pan starts as a blank table, unlike Goten and Trunks in Super.

So it just makes no sense to compare them, the fair comparison would be between GT Pan and Boo Arc Goten & Trunks.
Or, if you want to compare with Super characters, then Super Goten & Trunks - GT Dende, GT Kibitoshin, GT Ro Kaioshin, GT Bra, etc. GT Goten himself I think is a fair comparison as well, though I can't remember very well what he does outside of the Baby invasion (I barely revisit GT, my bad)

A fair comparison with GT Pan would be with the new Super characters who are given a dynamic character arc, like Broly, Jiren, the Gammas, Granola, Merus, etc…
Though I personally think they also can't be compared due to writing differences behind them, GT Pan was made to be developed throughout multiple arcs, while Super's new characters were made to be single-time characters only, a kind of development more akin to characters like Upa, Bora, Android 8, 16, etc, or Mirai Trunks and Android 17 from the original series.
The only one who seems to follow a more “Gohan, Vegeta, Piccolo, Kuririn” route is Broly, it seemed to be Toriyama's plan at least and apparently Toyotaro will be following it, but in Super Hero he didn't play an important role and he was secondary in the manga epilogue story, so we still have to see that.

Apologies, I just noticed your post.
I actually appreciate that Neva was a bystander, since that plays into his arc. His role was to observe the heroes after centuries of playing host to an oppressive government, which occasionally nudges him just enough to lend a helping hand of his own so he can continue to watch these events unfold. It pays off because his faith in the Demon Realm is restored after seeing that people are willing to fight for change without self-serving incentives and actually accomplish said change in the process.

Daima, like much of the original artist's version of Dragon Ball, has a lot of great subtextual elements to glean from the text if you're interested enough to analyze them.

(No problem, my posts are pretty long)
I get what you mean, I do like that as well, it will especially remind us of Kami in the Piccolo Junior saga or Kaioshin in the Boo Saga for example, or more precisely, Kame Sennin in the Pilaf Saga. Neva is not even only an observer all the time as he also decides to help directly, or have Gamma 1 fighting for him.

I guess I expected him to be a master because in the revival era I got too used to Super's style of storytelling, where training is heavily emphasized and a very good progression to what was presented in the original series, giving more meaning to the transformations. I mentioned Monaito, who has a similar role in the Granola saga, but there's also Merus, so maybe Toriyama thought it would be repetitive, those two stories were still quite recent so maybe it was also one of the reasons he decided to not make Neva a master for Goku.

But going back to what I was originally saying, my critics aren't exactly for Neva actually, but for SSJ4, I think there could've been be more to it, I don't like how “out of nowhere” it comes, that's why I think Neva had potential to give it more substance, I think it would give more meaning to the form, and also make Neva himself seem more important than he already was, but the link was seen mostly in the mini transformation scene only. At least there's him deciding to help because his journey helped him to see how Goku and friends had a good heart and deserved it, like you said. But the actual transformation lacked in build up when compared to the original series and the Super ones imo, I think even the GT SSJ4 had more to it. But Toriyama decided to make a surprise, not something for us to expect, so it's the way it is. At least I think it's a lot better than how SSJ3 was handled (in the original series, not Daima, I think Vegeta's SSJ3 was better than Goku and Gotenks’)

Though I can understand if you see no problem with it, especially when there are moments in the original series such as Goku drinking the Choshinsui for example. But I always preferred how that moment worked in the anime, some can feel it was unnecessary, but I personally think it only adds more to Goku's journey to become stronger so he can beat Piccolo Daimao, in my view, it enriches the storytelling in a way quite similar to what the Garlic Jr. saga did with Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn for example. Even Kami, in that arc he talks more and more about the fact that Earth no longer needs him, that Piccolo became more important, then when Toriyama continues the actual story, he indeed makes Kami abandon his role and see the fusion with Piccolo as necessary. But that's just me.

Well, that's truly the heart of what I was getting at. Pan is little more than a misogynistic caricature because the writers weren't interested in making her anything more, by their own admission. Whatever development her character was given if you really wanted to stretch everything doesn't constitute enough of an arc to justify her largely unchanging behavior and role. The point of her storyline isn't even the same as Vegeta's "even the lowest scum can be redeemed", so the audience ends up with an annoying protagonist that doesn't actually contribute much outside of annoyingly sexist tropes. It's hackneyed writing.

Of course, all of GT is hackneyed. As you alluded earlier, anyone that dislikes Pan will more than likely also dislike the show in general because A) being one of its main protagonists nets her a ton of screentime, and B) the show mishandles its whole cast from beginning to end. Pan at least had the benefit of being a mostly blank slate by GT's production because she wasn't as well-established as the rest, and the writers STILL couldn't get that shit right. Koyama's movies are more watchable in comparison.

Maybe I messed up the comparison I tried to make with the Koyama movies lol, but yeah, I also intended to say that those movies work better in comparison, the reasons are the fact that they weren't allowed to change the status quo of the characters (only of the ones made exclusively for them) as they had to follow the anime, so they couldn't take risks, they had to tell a story without affecting Goku and Friends, only sometimes showing them alive when they weren't supposed to be, or giving Goku a new transformation that he loses access to in the same movie because it would later get “retconned” by Toriyama and then by the next movie (False SSJ)

GT didn't have this, it didn't have to follow any rule, it could do anything with its characters, its world, etc, still, I feel most of the characters do not change at all and Goku is always the one to win, which is really odd for a sequel series that had 4 arcs, so it ends “feeling like” the movies for those reasons.
While Super, which is stuck inside the 10 year time frame prior to the EoZ, managed to change the status of its characters more, without having to kill them for example, or completely abandoning something that they learned (existence of Ultimate Gohan, Gotenks, etc), and only had Goku finishing off the main antagonist twice. Very weird.

As for Pan, I think she becomes more mature throughout the series, but by making her into the “Gohan of GT” they just forgot about very essential things that made Gohan actually mature in the original series, by training with Piccolo, being alone in the wilderness and far from friends for a year, training with both Goku and Piccolo for 3 years for an incoming threat that doomed the future, going to another planet with enemies from all sides and his only friend was Kuririn, getting nearly killed by ancient entity and training with gods, etc.
All of these were fundamental for Gohan's growth and we see little to nothing like this with Pan, so she simply stagnated.

That's why I personally think GT would've worked better as a single 26-30 episodes arc, just like Daima, more specifically, the Baby Arc and Evil Dragons arcs as one arc, with a few elements from the Space Exploration arc, especially, the very beginning of course. Would've made Pan's role and the absence of many characters more meaningful. The ending would still be there, just the SSJ4 would need some changes to better fit its role in the story.
But GT didn't really have this benefit as it was made inside a 14 / 18 years television format that forced it to be a continuous serialization. So it couldn't be a pre-determined story like Daima.

I do think the way it was conceived still allowed it to have its own merits though, some of them better than some stuff that Daima did, SSJ4 is one of them imo. Managed to have such an impact that went beyond just the design, opposed to the previous transformation / last transformation in the original series which had nothing to it than just its cool look. It's enough to convince me that the Toei staff at the time had potential for great ideas with great execution. Not a fan of the series in overall personally, but I think it has interesting ideas that definitely make it worth remembering from time to time.

Though when it comes to consistency, I think Toriyama showed to be able to deal with it better, SSJ4 in Daima has its mini version and remains that way until the characters are wished to become adults again, which I think makes far more sense than what GT did with having Goku stay as a kid and SSJ4 forcing him to be an adult, which I just don't buy.

[Zephyr]

Holy damn I always thought that Gotenks was somehow a lot more about Trunks than Goten, now that you said he's like an extension of Trunks’ character I can't unfeel it lol.
I partially agree with the comparison to Chaozu, As I think Chaozu had a little more to offer especially if you take his fight against Kuririn, where we get a good impression of his confidence and arrogance but also his side where he can easily get scared or confused, leading to him sabotaging Goku but then deciding to give up because he trusts Tenshinhan as a friend. His sacrifice against Nappa, an act of courage decided by him that goes against his old days of just following orders from Tsuru Sennin, which I consider a great end for his character arc, so I think there was more to his character for these reasons.

Goten in comparison, aside from when Chichi was killed, I think only had something close to this both when he met Goku for the first time and when Goku had to return to Afterlife, where we see how timid and emotional he is, but other than that, it's always Trunks' sidekick, and like you said in a previous post, Gohan was dropped very quickly. Goten as well, but it was worse because it was in the same arc that introduced him, unlike Gohan who had 3 arcs and a half worth of development lol

I thought about including Puar but characters like him have the advantage of nothing being fighters, smaller roles maybe not good for comparison.

At least GT gave Goten a girlfriend.

I feel like Chaozu's arc, which I do like, is basically complete by the end of the tournament he debuts in. A good two note character. The only thing I feel is potentially lacking from him after that point is to desire a rematch with Kuririn. I don't lament keeping him around, even if he doesn't really develop any further. But if we were to mark his arc complete with his death, then that would occur when Piccolo Daimao kills him. An arc across two stories. His sacrifice against Nappa definitely feels a bit more climactic, I suppose.

And that's a good point about Goten. Chaozu at least had an arc across multiple stories, while Goten pretty much debuts as a background character.

I think that's why his continued absence doesn't bother me, though I can see how that might be why his continued absence does bother someone else.

[angeldreamZ004]

I get that view, especially given the distance between Tenshinhan and Saiyajin arcs. Won't really feel very organic, plus, he was very sidelined in the Majunior arc, which doesn't really contribute to us following his character in a continuous way.

I see his death against Nappa as the true conclusion to his arc because of the different impact it has when compared to his death to Piccolo Daimao. When Daimao kills him, it's to serve as a way for the plot to tell us that the heroes are in complete disgrace and failure with no hope, and push Tenshinhan forward.

I feel that in the Saiyajin arc, there was more to his death in comparison, as it's a moment made solely for him, unlike back then with Daimao, were he was just part of a plan, the actual forefront was of Roshi. Chaozu was just part of that larger moment with sequential disasters. Against Nappa I feel he actually got his own separate moment of spotlight. Followed by more disaster of course, but I feel it was more unique to him, I can say the same for Yamcha, Tenshinhan and Piccolo deaths too.

Agree on Goten debuting as a background character as well, or secondary at best. Which makes me once again question how exactly Toyotaro plans to work with him.
I can easily imagine for example, Trunks (present) having a major role without him, I think he got enough development for him to work as his own separate character with his own arc, Super more or less already did that actually. But I can't imagine Goten having a major role without Trunks. The symbiosis is too strong, maybe Toyo would need to pretty much redo Goten's character from scratch, it's at least the only way I can think of it being interesting to me.

I think GT was the only one to get closer to making him his own separate character, but it was a very small portion of a much larger story, so not effective at all in my view.