Kid Buu vs Buuhan(Article):

[Koitsukai]

It was always a contradiction within itself, Goku claims Kid Buu is the strongest... while fighting him as a SS2.

You know I've never actually minded this (the fight, not the line about Buu being strongest). It always just seemed like the SS2 Goku portion of the fight was a warm up than an actual fight, as neither side seems to be taking any real damage.

Then again, maybe I'm biased as the SS2 Goku Vs. Kid Buu battle is my favourite fight.

It was! that's why it made no sense for Goku to claim that warm up was against the strongest ever while holding back himself.

[Kid Buu]

It was always a contradiction within itself, Goku claims Kid Buu is the strongest... while fighting him as a SS2.

You know I've never actually minded this (the fight, not the line about Buu being strongest). It always just seemed like the SS2 Goku portion of the fight was a warm up than an actual fight, as neither side seems to be taking any real damage.

Then again, maybe I'm biased as the SS2 Goku Vs. Kid Buu battle is my favourite fight.

It was! that's why it made no sense for Goku to claim that warm up was against the strongest ever while holding back himself.

Yeah the strongest line bit can go, but I think the SS2 warm up bit can stay.

[Hellspawn28]

Kid Buu being stronger makes no sense given that Goku had to fuse to fight against Buuhan. If Kid Buu was stronger, Goku would have fused again. Also, Super Buu calls himself the mightiness majin" after absorbing Gohan. Doesn't make sense for him to say that when he knows his original self is stronger. It's like saying Imperfect Cell is stronger than Super Perfect Cell because that was his original form.

[Kid Buu]

Kid Buu being stronger makes no sense given that Goku had to fuse to fight against Buuhan. If Kid Buu was stronger, Goku would have fused again. Also, Super Buu calls himself the mightiness majin" after absorbing Gohan. Doesn't make sense for him to say that when he knows his original self is stronger. It's like saying Imperfect Cell is stronger than Super Perfect Cell because that was his original form.

After absorbing Gotenks, not Gohan.

[Hellspawn28]

My bad. If said that after absorbing Gotenks then him absorbing Gohan would make him even stronger. I still don't get why Kid Buu vs. Buuhan is even a debate in the first place?

[DanielSSJ]

Besides the anime stuff, the usual taking points are:

+ Boo's ki starts rising after Vegeta removes Fat Boo from inside him and he starts reverting back to his original form.
+ Elder Kaioshin says that Boo "lowered his power through absorption"
+ Ultimate Gohan's ki wasn't enough on its own to make a Spirit Bomb strong enough to kill Kid Boo.
+ Some of the databooks call Goku the strongest in the universe after beating Boo.

All of it can be explained away in one way or another, but there's enough evidence that can be interpreted a certain way to keep the debate alive.

[Kid Buu]

Honestly the Buff Buu scene was not needed IMO and just created more confusion.

If I were to redo that part. Super Buu still goes Buff, but instead of there being "ki got stronger" it is just a body spasm and it eventually turns into Kid.

I'd also change the Kaioshin battle to be more similar to the Nappa battle. Kid Buu fights all 5 Kais at the same time. North and West die straight away (similar to Ten and Chaozu). South Kaioshin (the Piccolo of the group) dies next but wears Kid Buu down to the point the Dai Kaioshin can beat him. Kid Buu then absorbs Dai Kaioshin and the rest of the scene plays out like it did in the anime.

Also, it may explain why Kaioshin never mentioned to the cast why Buu can absorb people if the only time it ever happened it actually backfired on him.

[DanielSSJ]

Part of the issue there is that I'm pretty sure the entire reason South Kaioshin is there at all is to explain why Super Boo is stronger than Kid Boo. If Grand Kaioshin's influence works against him, then the extra power must come from somewhere else.

[Kid Buu]

I get that but my problem with it is Buff Buu is still stronger than Super Buu.

Buff Buu = Kid Buu + South Kaioshin
Fat Buu = Kid Buu + South Kaioshin - Dai Kaioshin
Super Buu = Stronger than Fat Buu, Kid Buu but weaker than Buff Buu? So Kid Buu + South Kaioshin - Dai Kaioshin, but just not to the same extent Dai weakened Fat?

In my version it'd just be:

Fat Buu is Kid Buu weakened by Dai Kaioshin while Super Buu is Kid Buu plus Dai Kaioshins power.

[DanielSSJ]

If the idea is that the heart Boo gained by absorbing Grand Kaioshin weakened him, then it'd make the most sense Super Boo would be stronger than Fat Boo because the balance inside him has shifted far more towards evil, but still wouldn't be at full strength because there's still a tiny scrap of good left in him (see him not killing Mr Satan). Thematically, that makes the most sense. The writing just gets messy since it also has to accommodate Kid Boo being someone Goku could conceivably fight, whereas Super Boo wasn't.

One way to do it could've been let Kid Boo actually be stronger, and just let Gohan and Gotenks live so they can all jump Boo in a 3v1 or something.

[Kid Buu]

Fair enough I see where you're coming from.

I still think "Goku and Vegeta destroying potara because they want to abuse afterlife, only for Kaioshin to reveal that Kid Buu just erases people not kill people" might be the best twist:

- It makes Goku and Vegeta not look like jackasses for destroying potara
- It makes Kid Buu looks way more dangerous than Super Buu
- Even somewhat justifies not brining Gohan and Gotenks in, as they're shown to be prone to mistakes.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I still think "Goku and Vegeta destroying potara because they want to abuse afterlife, only for Kaioshin to reveal that Kid Buu just erases people not kill people" might be the best twist:

But it sounds kinda random and fan fictiony, why would Pure Buu even erase souls, and how would Kaioshin even know about it

[Kid Buu]

I still think "Goku and Vegeta destroying potara because they want to abuse afterlife, only for Kaioshin to reveal that Kid Buu just erases people not kill people" might be the best twist:

But it sounds kinda random and fan fictiony, why would Pure Buu even erase souls

I mean....

You could even relate it back to how the Piccolo arc establishes those killed by demons don't pass on into the afterlife, and that every other version of Boo contained at least a little bit of Kaioshin in him making him not a full demon/Majin/whatever

[PhantomSaiyan]

You could even relate it back to how the Piccolo arc establishes those killed by demons don't pass on into the afterlife, and that every other version of Boo contained at least a little bit of Kaioshin in him making him not a full demon/Majin/whatever

But connecting him to Piccolo and demons still feels random, why would this magic creature have the same properties or abilities as demons, he's got a completely different origin

[Kid Buu]

You could even relate it back to how the Piccolo arc establishes those killed by demons don't pass on into the afterlife, and that every other version of Boo contained at least a little bit of Kaioshin in him making him not a full demon/Majin/whatever

But connecting him to Piccolo and demons still feels random, why would this magic creature have the same properties or abilities as demons, he's got a completely different origin

Doesn't Majin literally mean Demon?

[Zephyr]

You could even relate it back to how the Piccolo arc establishes those killed by demons don't pass on into the afterlife, and that every other version of Boo contained at least a little bit of Kaioshin in him making him not a full demon/Majin/whatever

But connecting him to Piccolo and demons still feels random, why would this magic creature have the same properties or abilities as demons, he's got a completely different origin

Doesn't Majin literally mean Demon?

Yes, kinda, sometimes, partially. Lotta different types of beings in DB that get translated as "demon".

The Japanese term ma (魔) can be translated as "demon", "evil", "evil spirit", "magic", "sorcery", "witchcraft", etc. In DB we see this notably in Mazoku, Makankosappo, Masenko, Makyo, Madoshi, Majin, and Makai.

Piccolo Daimao, Garlic Jr., and Slug, as well as their henchmen, are Mazoku (魔族), which Kanzenshuu translates as "Demon Clan". As written in the aforelinked Demon Guide:

Their special characteristic is that the spirits of those killed by them are unable to pass on into the afterlife, and instead remain in the living world, suffering....It is never really stated what qualifies one as a member of the Demon Clan, but...it seems that being pure evil or at least close to it is the major factor.

Obviously Boo is a Majin (魔人), which Kanzenshuu translates as "Demon-Human", and he's the only one to appear in the original manga. While Mazoku seems to lean more to the "evil" side of the definitional spectrum, Majin seems to skew more to the "magic" side. The Demon Guide notes that the term is often used to refer to "genies", while Wikitionary defines it as a person with supernatural abilities. Daima's retroactively making Piccolo and Kaioshin Majin is consistent with this.

Importantly, Mazoku and Majin are not the same thing, and they are not interchangeable, despite both loosely being sorts of "magical demons". So just because Boo is a Majin doesn't mean he is a Mazoku. That said, you could make the argument that it's a bit of an oversight that Boo, when described as pure evil, does not qualify him as a Mazoku as well. You could make that argument about several characters, honestly.

That said, Mazoku trap souls, rather than erasing them. So Boo being a Mazoku wouldn't accomplish what we'd want it to here. But if we're in a hypothetical writers room anyway, we could just introduce the notion that the pure evil Boo is actually a Dai Mazoku, which erase souls rather than binding them. Or something in that direction.

[Kid Buu]

That said, Mazoku trap souls, rather than erasing them.

So what we're saying is that Buu.....will send them to the next dimension.

Good read btw, I learned a lot!

[DanielSSJ]

But connecting him to Piccolo and demons still feels random, why would this magic creature have the same properties or abilities as demons, he's got a completely different origin

Not so random when you remember that Majin can be translated as "demon/demonic person" and contains the exact same kanji that King Piccolo made into his personal emblem, or that Dragon Ball Daima already went and made it so both Boo and Namekians originated from the Demon Realm.

That said, Mazoku trap souls, rather than erasing them. So Boo being a Mazoku wouldn't accomplish what we'd want it to here. But if we're in a hypothetical writers room anyway, we could just introduce the notion that the pure evil Boo is actually a Dai Mazoku, which erase souls rather than binding them. Or something in that direction.

Or that the rules are different when a Mazoku kills a person who's already dead vs someone who was alive.

[Kid Buu]

But connecting him to Piccolo and demons still feels random, why would this magic creature have the same properties or abilities as demons, he's got a completely different origin

Not so random when you remember that Majin can be translated as "demon/demonic person" and contains the exact same kanji that King Piccolo made into his personal emblem, or that Dragon Ball Daima already went and made it so both Boo and Namekians originated from the Demon Realm.

That said, Mazoku trap souls, rather than erasing them. So Boo being a Mazoku wouldn't accomplish what we'd want it to here. But if we're in a hypothetical writers room anyway, we could just introduce the notion that the pure evil Boo is actually a Dai Mazoku, which erase souls rather than binding them. Or something in that direction.

Or that the rules are different when a Mazoku kills a person who's already dead vs someone who was alive.

Your posts made me realise, had Gohan beaten Buu, the arc would have been a similar formula to Daimao:

Demon is released -> beats hero -> demon gets stronger -> hero gets stronger -> rematch

[DanielSSJ]

Your posts made me realise, had Gohan beaten Buu, the arc would have been a similar formula to Daimao:

Demon is released -> beats hero -> demon gets stronger -> hero gets stronger -> rematch

As someone who's wondered what the Boo arc would've looked like had Gohan stayed in the leading role, I have had the same exact thought.