Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[QuakingStar]

The DBS Broly movie and SH Movie and Arc seem to be working off of the Manga version of the ToP. Where Jiren was able to not only catch up to but outlast MUI Goku with Whis saying Jirens potential was immeasurable.

[Miracles]

Yes sir, Jiren's potential couldn't be measured [Gauge his ceiling]. He was countering Goku's UI through determination as the fight went on. However, that was only due to the fact that Goku's body couldn't handle UI [Strain] since it was his first time using it. Both were at a disadvantage and it was a war of attrition. Jiren outlasted him.

But yeah you are correct...All the continuities tie in concerning that specific account. Goku and Vegeta need to manage their power better especially in the stamina department. Their full power doesn't last long during fights unlike their opponents and it makes it seem like they are outclassed by large margins. Where enemies use techniques to maintain their full power longer [being relaxed in the midst of battle before attacking giving them better output].

Hence why Jiren in the manga, as you said is able to keep up with Goku's UI cause UI is trick he just learned and his stamina was the issue just like it is today [Controlling his emotions as well].

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I keep seeing people saying Pure Buu > Super Buu or even Buutenks. I'm pretty sure Bootenks says he is the strongest Majin in history which is obviously Pre-Boohan and Herms even translated the lines before.

Now I can understand if they say Pure Buu >= Super Buu in power because it's literally just Pure Buu with the two Kai's inside still, until he spits Good Buu out who would presumably then be the one with both Kais inside.

I blame the anime for adding all those lines glazing Kid Boo.

The anime also throws you for a bit of a loop when Vegeta says Goku is the only one who can fight Boo (Gohan was dead, but why can't he be brought back?) and Gohan's energy isn't enough to kill Boo.

[PhantomSaiyan]

and Gohan's energy isn't enough to kill Boo.

The way I always understood that is that they don't give their entire strenght to the Genkidama, otherwise they'd end up lying dead on the ground instead of just being exhausted, they just give a significant fraction of energy, but not the full thing.

[Noah]

Isn't current Gogeta Blue (and beyond) just enough to deal with Black Freeza?

[Miracles]

Nah, Goku and Vegeta's god techniques are more stable and stronger than it's ever been. Yet Freeza lolol one shotted them.

Blue fusions have not shown to be in the tier of Goku's UI since the tournament of Power. When we actually reached god level.

[Zinnia]

Blue fusions have not shown to be in the tier of Goku's UI since the tournament of Power. When we actually reached god level.

Broly was compared to Beerus, the strongest GoD, and yet SSB Gogeta took him down effortlessly. He definitely was God level.

[QuakingStar]

Goku had never seen or fought FP Beerus, so his statement is null. Unless we are saying Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Broly and Piccolo with their strongest forms are now stronger than Beerus in SH Arc onward and that's a major stretch, just untrue.

[Miracles]

Blue fusions have not shown to be in the tier of Goku's UI since the tournament of Power. When we actually reached god level.

Broly was compared to Beerus, the strongest GoD, and yet SSB Gogeta took him down effortlessly. He definitely was God level.

No. SSB Gogeta wasn't even a viable option let alone a challenge for Moro with Spirit Fission.

[PhantomSaiyan]

No. SSB Gogeta wasn't even a viable option let alone a challenge for Moro with Spirit Fission.

That's just because he can defuse them, not because he's stronger

[Miracles]

No. SSB Gogeta wasn't even a viable option let alone a challenge for Moro with Spirit Fission.

That's just because he can defuse them, not because he's stronger

You need to damage the individual for Spirit Fission to work.

[QuakingStar]

No. SSB Gogeta wasn't even a viable option let alone a challenge for Moro with Spirit Fission.

That's just because he can defuse them, not because he's stronger

You need to damage the individual for Spirit Fission to work.

Vegeta wasn't doing any damage when he first started attacking Moro, but he was hitting him. So being able to hit your opponent is the requirement.

[SupremeKai25]

No. SSB Gogeta wasn't even a viable option let alone a challenge for Moro with Spirit Fission.

That's just because he can defuse them, not because he's stronger

Dragon Ball (at least when authored and thoroughly reviewed by Akira Toriyama as in this case) generally follows the formula of New Antagonist > Previous Antagonist / New Saga Power Levels > Previous Saga Power Levels.

Gogeta as he appeared in the Broly saga is not stronger than Moro.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Dragon Ball (at least when authored and thoroughly reviewed by Akira Toriyama as in this case) generally follows the formula of New Antagonist > Previous Antagonist / New Saga Power Levels > Previous Saga Power Levels.

Gogeta as he appeared in the Broly saga is not stronger than Moro.

Nope, you forgot Buuhan > Kid Buu.

There is nothing that proves that Moro is stronger than Gogeta, no statement, nothing. As much as the characters improve in each saga, they do NOT become stronger than previous sagas Fusions, Fusions are just broken when it comes to power levels, you don't catch up to them in just one arc.

[SupremeKai25]

Dragon Ball (at least when authored and thoroughly reviewed by Akira Toriyama as in this case) generally follows the formula of New Antagonist > Previous Antagonist / New Saga Power Levels > Previous Saga Power Levels.

Gogeta as he appeared in the Broly saga is not stronger than Moro.

Nope, you forgot Buuhan > Kid Buu.

They are in the same saga. I'm talking about antagonists in different sagas, not versions of the same antagonist in the same saga. Buu > Cell > Freeza > Vegeta.

There is nothing that proves that Moro is stronger than Gogeta, no statement, nothing. As much as the characters improve in each saga, they do NOT become stronger than previous sagas Fusions, Fusions are just broken when it comes to power levels, you don't catch up to them in just one arc.

Modern Dragon Ball begins with Goku obtaining a form that completely outclasses Super Vegito from the previous saga.

It's 2026 and I'm sure we as a community have decisively proven that

Initial SSG Goku > Super Vegito from the Buu saga

[PhantomSaiyan]

They are in the same saga. I'm talking about antagonists in different sagas, not versions of the same antagonist in the same saga. Buu > Cell > Freeza > Vegeta.

Still not a good point, the next antagonist can be stronger than the previous one all you want, it says nothing about whether or not they are stronger than a Goku x Vegeta Fusion, because they also get stronger in each arc

Modern Dragon Ball begins with Goku obtaining a form that completely outclasses Super Vegito from the previous saga.

It's 2026 and I'm sure we as a community have decisively proven that

Initial SSG Goku > Super Vegito from the Buu saga

Again, doesn't matter, because if Goku fused with Vegeta again after obtaining SSJGod, Vegito would still be stronger, you seem to forget that as Goku and Vegeta progress in power level, so do their Fusions, they aren't just stuck in time.

A hypothetical Gogeta vs Moro matchup would logically imply that it's the Goku and Vegeta that fought Moro doing the Fusion, not the ones from the saga before.

Once again, there is absolutely nothing that proves that Moro is stronger than Gogeta.

[Koitsukai]

But wasn't the question can current Gogeta beat Freeza? the BR movie Gogeta no longer exists nor is relevant in this scenario.

I think he definitely can, Gogeta destroyed a Broly that was much stronger than the one that Goku and Vegeta couldn't even tag. Buuhan, had he laid his hands on SS Goku and SS Vegeta, would've have evaporated them, yet Vegito danced around him.
Yeah, the gap this time might be bigger than in those cases, but fusion is still OP as fuck.

In terms of power, Gogeta won't be on the losing end, the issue might be if the potara can hold so much power and not defuse.
The same for the dance, Gogeta might only have one minute to take Freeza down, and that's the only thing that could give Freeza some hope.

It all boils down to the limitations the writers are willing to put on the fusion. Because Gogeta vs Broly lasted way longer than he should, if he go by DBS Vegito's fight.
If everything goes, like in the movie, then Gogeta dines Black Freeza.
Now, Granny arc Gogeta... I think that would've been similar to Vegito-Zamasu in the anime

[DanielSSJ]

The funny thing is, Gogeta actually didn't last longer than he should've. Iirc it's only Super Saiyan Blue that actually shortens Fusion Time, and Gogeta only went Blue during the last four minutes of the fight (or a lot less if you account for how fights are meant to be slowed way down for our benefit, though I think that's pretty inconsistent). For most of it, he was boxing Broli with base and Super Saiyan 1.

[Koitsukai]

But Gogeta spammed ultimate attacks left and right, Vegito couldn't even do one signature move while Gogeta did at least 3. He did the soul punisher, did that big ki explosion and finished it with a huge KHH.

I doubt the idea behind it was to show the dance as superior to the potara merger (specially since the franchise is now leaning towards the glinds being literally higher beings).

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You need to damage the individual for Spirit Fission to work.

SSJBE Vegeta’s punches were weakening Planet Moro. Also, Moro would passively weaken Gogeta with his magic.

Dragon Ball (at least when authored and thoroughly by Akira Toriyama as in this case) generally follows the formula of New Antagonist > Previous Antagonist / New Saga Power Levels > Previous Saga Power Levels.

Gogeta as he appeared in the Broly saga is not stronger than Moro.

So you reckon Infinite Zamasu would get crushed by any serious fighter in the ToP?