What would've been the best way to do an "Evil Gokuu" arc?

[Grimlock]

Ironically, it was this same "Gokuu's father must be special" thinking that led to Toriyama retconning the TV special with Minus. Because he's Gokuu's father, it was decided that he shouldn't be evil, which led to Toriyama turning him into the family man we see in Minus and DBS.

Yep, thus giving birth to another type of Bardock who is also special.

I always felt it would've been better for Gokuu's father to just be regular low class trash, because it makes Gokuu's own accomplishments more impressive. In both the TV special and Minus, Gokuu is made into this prophetic figure of destiny, which I always found lame.

To each their own, but Goku's accomplishments have nothing to do with Bardock or his actions and personality, as far as I'm concerned. Regardless of how you portray him, Goku's merits are his own. Otherwise Raditz would have gone far too. But you really can't take away the fact that he's special, that's just how this generally goes. Look at other similar cartoons, remember Minato Namikaze, Monkey D. Dragon... You just can't hope for a father of a protagonist to be random. Bardock is a regular low class Saiyan, only he's not trash, and there's really no problem with that. I don't know why one would have a problem with that. Of course Vegeta went as far as he did, look at his father, he was the king of all Saiyans, right? Well, this is the part where you remember Tarble. How good being the son of the king of all Saiyans was for him?

How does getting struck in the head somehow grant you psychic powers, anyway? It's overly convenient

How does looking at the moon somehow make one become a giant ape? How does holding hands somehow make one become a god? How does changing the color of hair somehow make one stronger? How does putting earrings somehow make one fuse? How does dancing somehow make one fuse? How does getting seven orbs somehow summon a dragon that can grant wish? How does getting nearly killed then healing somehow make one stronger? It's overly convenient.

Dragon Ball doesn't have to feel like a Greek tragedy,

Dragon Ball doesn't have to do many things, yet, it is always at its best when it does try something different. Curious, huh?

For all the flak Minus gets, it actually fixes some flaws from the TV special.

Why did Freeza let Gokuu's spacepod leave right before blowing up Planet Vegeeta? Minus smartly changed it so that Gokuu being sent away was secret and unplanned. What about all the other Saiyans that could've been out in space? Minus shows that Freeza took the time to call all of them back to Planet Vegeeta, leaving no questions about any possible scavengers. Raditz also appears in Minus instead of weirdly being left out like in the TV special.

The ending of the TV special with Gokuu being all happy when found by Grandpa Gohan clashes with the manga, too; Gokuu was supposed to be wild before hitting his head. And the idea of sending babies to outer space never made any sense; how the hell is an infant supposed to know about the Saiyans' mission to exterminate life on planets and return to Planet Vegeeta later on? Gokuu being sent away as a kid in Minus makes more sense.

I'm not sure you want to talk to me about Dragon Ball Minus "getting some flaws fixed" right after I listed its own fair share of problems.

[Zebra]

Regardless of how you portray him, Goku's merits are his own.

Doesn't really feel that way if he's destined to do everything.

Look at other similar cartoons, remember Minato Namikaze, Monkey D. Dragon... You just can't hope for a father of a protagonist to be random.

Those series are all influenced by Dragon Ball, anyway. Be better to use examples from older series. Regardless, not every protagonist's father is special. Deku's father from MHA, Yuugi's father from Yuu-Gi-Oh, Yuusuke's father from YYH, etc. They're all nobodies, nothing characters.

It's not like we ever needed to learn about Gokuu's father. Burdack himself only appears in two panels in the original manga, and other than that, he's only mentioned once by Raditz. Nothing changes if Freeza faces Gokuu without remembering Burdack. Despite being so popular with fans, he's not significant to the story.

[Grimlock]

Doesn't really feel that way if he's destined to do everything.

Then you can thank your Dragon Ball Minus for that, which outright states he's the "child of destiny". At least in that regard, the TV Special didn't try to paint him in such blatant way.

It's not like we ever needed to learn about Gokuu's father. Burdack himself only appears in two panels in the original manga, and other than that, he's only mentioned once by Raditz. Nothing changes if Freeza faces Gokuu without remembering Burdack. Despite being so popular with fans, he's not significant to the story.

Yeah, the only way to make Bardock be a nobody is if he was never created in the first place. But that's not the reality we live in, thank Dende. And nowadays, you can also thank Dragon Ball Minus, as his role now does impact his significance in the overall story (I guess Dragon Ball Minus does fix a few flaws after all!).

[Zebra]

Doesn't really feel that way if he's destined to do everything.

Then you can thank your Dragon Ball Minus for that, which outright states he's the "child of destiny". At least in that regard, the TV Special didn't try to paint him in such blatant way.

He was literally prophesized to fight Freeza in Burdack's vision. It's the same thing.

[Grimlock]

Eh, I guess it is the same thing, if you want to interpret the scene that way.

[goku the krump dancer]

My favorite depiction of Evil Goku is Young Jiji’s idea of him. Hit in the neck so hard doing what he loves (training/fighting) that it retriggers his initial Saiyan aggression, we even get to see him wrestling with his violent urges before completely succumbing to them.

Not quite sure how it ends but I always thought that was the only natural way to do an Evil Goku where it makes sense. It’s actually him, not a clone, not a possession or mind control or body swap. It’s just Goku being Goku but bad for the same reason he became good.. an accident!

[Zebra]

My favorite depiction of Evil Goku is Young Jiji’s idea of him. Hit in the neck so hard doing what he loves (training/fighting) that it retriggers his initial Saiyan aggression, we even get to see him wrestling with his violent urges before completely succumbing to them.

That's actually Omada Naoyuki's depiction. Young Jijii is only the hired illustrator for Dragon Ball After.

I prefer it over Gokuu Black, but it feels arbitrary that getting hit in the head would do that to Gokuu. He's been hit in the head many times before, so I don't see why Oob doing it would be any different.

[goku the krump dancer]

My favorite depiction of Evil Goku is Young Jiji’s idea of him. Hit in the neck so hard doing what he loves (training/fighting) that it retriggers his initial Saiyan aggression, we even get to see him wrestling with his violent urges before completely succumbing to them.

That's actually Omada Naoyuki's depiction. Young Jijii is only the hired illustrator for Dragon Ball After.

I prefer it over Gokuu Black, but it feels arbitrary that getting hit in the head would do that to Gokuu. He's been hit in the head many times before, so I don't see why Oob doing it would be any different.

I know several people have had a similar gripe with that story but the way I see it, head and body trauma doesn’t always happen over night, plenty of pro athletes, fighters, wrestlers talk about it all the time, the wear and tear adds up over the years and then BOOM to quote the Joker “All it takes is one bad day.”

Plus technically if I remember correctly the way he’s hit by Oob wasn’t just a punch to the face or bonk on the top of the head, he (Oob) not only had suddenly tapped into more of his majin power mid brawl but he ended up hitting Goku in the same sensitive spot that got him KO’d when Vegeta sucker punched him in the Boo arc, so it checks out it my book.

[UpFromTheSkies]

I actually like Goku Black a lot, but if they had to do it another way, they could pretend the "evil baby Goku" thing was never retconned, and make an alternate timeline Goku that never became good travel to the main timeline as a villain.

[Zebra]

Turless existing in Universe 6 would've made sense. The same exact people can't exist in multiple universes, but there can be counterparts of some sort as we see with Freeza and Frost, Broly and Kale, Tarble and Cabbe, etc. So, Turless could've been Gokuu's Universe 6 counterpart.

You could give him a mask, cover his skin, and remove the "devil horns" in his hair to make it a mystery who he is at first.

[Cipher]

I think the criticism of Goku from the Tournament of Power arc should have just been played fully sincerely and as the thesis statement of the arc. Goku is continuously a major danger to lives and this has now culminated in his actions threatening the lives of entire universes. The arc should have simply been about killing Goku and telling the audience that this was the series' view point.

Goku doesn't change, Dragon Ball does.

This is one of my bigger issues with the anime's version of that arc. It really leans into painting Goku as being in the wrong, but then it never resolves that issue. It just drops it.

I get it, because the whole thing feels pretty counterintuitive to how Dragon Ball generally works, but if you're not going to use it for anything, I'd much rather it just not go there. The manga gives us the idea of Goku being reckless, but immediately undercuts it with the idea that the Zeno were going to erase universes anyway, so they're at least given a fighting chance (if an unideal solution), which means the universe kind of comically works out in his favor regardless. That very much keeps in line with the Dragon Ball's thematic ethos under Toriyama--not shying away from Goku's problematic elements, but having a sort of cosmic punchline around the fact that he's so pure/single-minded in his approach that things work out around him anyway.

To that end/on the topic of this thread: I do not think you can do a traditional evil Goku story. I think basically everything about the character and series make that a hard sell for me.

[JulieYBM]

I think the criticism of Goku from the Tournament of Power arc should have just been played fully sincerely and as the thesis statement of the arc. Goku is continuously a major danger to lives and this has now culminated in his actions threatening the lives of entire universes. The arc should have simply been about killing Goku and telling the audience that this was the series' view point.

Goku doesn't change, Dragon Ball does.

This is one of my bigger issues with the anime's version of that arc. It really leans into painting Goku as being in the wrong, but then it never resolves that issue. It just drops it.

I get it, because the whole thing feels pretty counterintuitive to how Dragon Ball generally works, but if you're not going to use it for anything, I'd much rather it just not go there. The manga gives us the idea of Goku being reckless, but immediately undercuts it with the idea that the Zeno were going to erase universes anyway, so they're at least given a fighting chance (if an unideal solution), which means the universe kind of comically works out in his favor regardless. That very much keeps in line with the Dragon Ball's thematic ethos under Toriyama--not shying away from Goku's problematic elements, but having a sort of cosmic punchline around the fact that he's so pure/single-minded in his approach that things work out around him anyway.

To that end/on the topic of this thread: I do not think you can do a traditional evil Goku story. I think basically everything about the character and series make that a hard sell for me.

With the way that the production team always has to kowtow to people above them, I have to imagine somebody was in the room at some point chopping the legs off of the plans that Tomioka, Nagamine and Nakamura had. That typically happens with these big hobby anime.

Which is to say, I kind of just shrug my shoulders and don't put a ton of blame on the staff themselves.