The strength of the not-so-main fighters

[Onikage725]

Vegeta did fight Kid Buu in base some in the manga.

I don't feel like digging right now, but I really don't think it was that significant. The anime has a whole extra non-SSJ fight. Manga timeline of the battle- Goku goes SSJ3, runs low on ki, Vegeta jumps in to buy time, goes SSJ2, loses but Mr. Buu intervenes, etc. Anime version has Goku going even with Buu at SSJ2, but depowering from SSJ3 completely. Vegeta jumps in (without transforming) to buy time for Goku to re-transform. From there it mostly follows the manga.

[Xyex]

So you think a power of 20-30,000 would be enough for Pui Pui go give out sufficient damage to ressurect Buu? Not likely. They'd be waiting forever at that rate.

They were expecting for this to take a long time. When they got Gohan's energy Babidi was completely shocked by how much and how fast Spopovitch and Yamu got the energy. He thought the got it from thousands of people and somewhat wished he hadn't killed them so he could have found out how they did it so fast. Besides, you can't honestly think they didn't expect it to take forever for Spopovitch and Yamu to gather enough energy to revive Buu so that enitre point is negated.

Also, it'd be weird and nonsensical for Babidi to keep such a low level fighter alongside Dabura and Yakon.

How would it be weird and nonsensical? A lower level fighter would be needed, if any warriors showed up to interfere. If Dabura fought them and killed them when would they have time to gather the needed energy? They'd be dead way too fast. The entire point to the fighters, beyond guarding Babidi, was to gather energy from any defenders by fighting them. The longer the fight the more energy they can get.

Besides all of that, I never said he was necasarily at 20 to 30 thousand. I just said that that level would be sufficient to for their needs. I could easily see him as high as 2 million. But even at that level the Vegeta would obliterate him with little effort without being anywhere near Freeza's full power.

I know. But still. But if Gohan SSJ2 could only fill it half way, then Pui Pui would take forever trying to get enough damage to resurrect Buu.

Yeah, and they fully expected it to. They had every expectation to be at this for months, if not years. Babidi was completely and utterly shocked at just how fast Buu was restored.

I have to disagree with that. Cell was about as strong as an extremely well trained and in shape SSj2. Majin Buu was about as strong as an adult SSj3 that was in even better shape than Gohan had been for the Cell games, and I doubt that SSj3 is only twice as strong as it's previous SSj form.

I doubt it's even as high as twice. In fact, I figure it's only 50% better. A 50% boost to power is a massive amount of energy at these levels. Think about it. If Goku's at, say, 15 million in base. Then SSJ would put him at a minimum of 750 million. If SSJ2 is an equal increase (IE, double SSJ1) that puts SSJ2 Goku at a minimum of 1.5 billion. Another equal increase (IE, 1.5x) would put SSJ3 Goku at a minimum of 2.25 billion.

Now we know Goku is stronger than Gohan at level 2 and that Gohan's power got Buu close to half but not quite to half. Goku's energy then maxed out Buu's meter. So in the end, it does add up rather well. It really depends on how much of a gap you think there is between Gohan and Goku. If Gohan's SSJ2 is 900 million and that didn't quite get Buu to half then Buu's full coud be about 2 to 2.2 billion.

(Numbers only used to show that it does, indeed, match up)

It's been proven in every SSj transformation that the new level of power is many, many times greater than the power of the previous form, so twice Gohans power cannot equal Buu's power since Buu's power pretty much equalled SSj2 Goku.

It's never said how much stronger the higher levels are over the previous ones. We only know that they provide a noteable increase. But we also know that you don't need a whopping increase to gain the upper hand a lot of the time.

I do have to say this is a poor example. Freeza never refused to fight a Saiya-jin on the grounds of fear. When he did become afraid of a Super Saiya-jin, it was in the face of an opponent who was clearly his superior (and demonstrated such right away).

I'm not saying your idea about Kaioshin is improbable, just that those two scenarios are intrinsically different.

Freeza only fought SSJ Goku because he's in denial that anyone can be stronger than him. On Earth, when Trunks transformed, it took his father to re-spark his arrogance and denial at being surpassed. And Freeza wiped out the Saiya-jins at the mere thought of the remote chance of Super Saiya-jin even being possible.

In Kaioshin's case he doesn't have the arrogance that Freeza posessed to instill any sort of 'I can't be beaten' mentality in him. So the fact that he's already witnessed Majin's kill the rest of the Kaioshin's is enough to lock him into that "Oh shit, I'm screwed" mentality that Freeza had when he first saw Trunks transform.

I seriously doubt something like a 5,000 would have been viewed as useful. That's Nappa-range, peanuts compared to the task of reviving Buu.

5,000 not useful? On a world were the average level is 5? Seriously? Taking just one of the Saiya-jins if they were at 5,000 would save them having to find 1,000 other humans to drain. Having 3 of them at around 5,000 sitting right in front of you, whom you can draw energy from fairly quickly, is a huge boost compared to taking hours to track down 3,000 humans and drain them all individually.

Which is faster, walking 1,000 miles at a mile an hour or walking 1,000 miles at 5 miles an hour? They'll still take a while but the latter will get you to your goal slightly faster just the same. To stick with the analogy, Babidi wasn't expecting to find a garage full of Formula 1 race cars. Just a bunch of slow walkers.

Babidi would have been better off ordering Dabura to punch himself in the face (or beat on Yakon or something).

So, then, if that's so much better, why send out Spoppovitch and Yakon in the first place? Especially when they'll be even slower at gathering energy than fighting someone witha PL of 5,000 would be?

I'm pretty sure that they can't use the energy of any of Babidi's minions. I mean, why would he keep them around if he could? Why would he have Vegeta fight Goku to get Goku's energy instead of just telling Vegeta to stab himself with the energy collector? That would be the faster way, after all.

I do find it very unlikely that they would forget how to supress. They were actively trying to hide, and ki supression is kind of their schtick in the series.

That was my point, though. They're suppresed, and if they are suppressed there's no reason or evidence with which to argue against Option 1.

Looking at GT, the one that ticked me off the most was Trunks against Ii-Shenron.

GT is absolutely horrible with power scales. Base Kid Goku taking on Super Perfect Cell is the biggest offender. But then, Toei never really gave a crap about logic with its stuff. Like the human fighters taking on the Ginyu Force on King Kai's, Yamcha beating Olibu in the Buu Saga, etc.

That's from "our" perspective. I assume Babidi has a broader view, seeing as how Kaioshin says he's usually rolling with tough guards, and he has guys like Dabura and Yakon on his roster (Pui Pui's strength being up for debate at the moment).

Babidi's trying to protect himself from a known heavy-hitter, though. Kaioshin. That was his purpose in getting the likes of Dabura on his side.

Yet Dabura was out there the whole time, and he made Freeza look like a girlscout.

Dabura's not even from our universe, though, so he doesn't really count. That's like arguing that Freeza's not the strongest because Kaioshin's out there.

[Kid Trunks]

So you think a power of 20-30,000 would be enough for Pui Pui go give out sufficient damage to resurrect Buu? Not likely. They'd be waiting forever at that rate.

They were expecting for this to take a long time. When they got Gohan's energy Babidi was completely shocked by how much and how fast Spopovitch and Yamu got the energy. He thought the got it from thousands of people and somewhat wished he hadn't killed them so he could have found out how they did it so fast.

Babidi thought it was hundreds of people, not thousands.

Besides, you can't honestly think they didn't expect it to take forever for Spopovitch and Yamu to gather enough energy to revive Buu so that enitre point is negated.

That only negates my point if you consider Pui Pui to be a weakling, which I don't. Beside, "you can't honestly think" isn't a good enough reason for me not to believe something.

Also, it'd be weird and nonsensical for Babidi to keep such a low level fighter alongside Dabura and Yakon.

How would it be weird and nonsensical?

Because, if Pui Pui was only 20-30-40,000 (whatever), Babidi wouldn't keep him in the same ranks as Dabura and Yakon (who are obviously in the SSJ ranges). Also, we're at a point in the series where everyone is in the millions now.

A lower level fighter would be needed, if any warriors showed up to interfere

Not really. He'd be useless. In the sense that Pui Pui wouldn't be able to generate the energy to revive Buu if he was only in the tens of thousands.

Besides all of that, I never said he was necasarily at 20 to 30 thousand. I just said that that level would be sufficient to for their needs. I could easily see him as high as 2 million. But even at that level the Vegeta would obliterate him with little effort without being anywhere near Freeza's full power.

Well, I never said he was at Freeza's strength. In fact, I said "a few million or so". 2 million would be in that range. So we're sort of in agreement there, aren't we? My argument is that Pui Pui isn't so weak that he's only in the tens of thousands.

I know. But still. But if Gohan SSJ2 could only fill it half way, then Pui Pui would take forever trying to get enough damage to resurrect Buu.

Yeah, and they fully expected it to. They had every expectation to be at this for months, if not years. Babidi was completely and utterly shocked at just how fast Buu was restored.

Theres nothing to suggest they were expecting to wait years. Theres no direct evidence to suggest they weren't either. But when reading the manga, it seems more likely that they weren't expecting to wait too long.

...I really didn't want to get into this back and forth of dissecting each others posts .

[Drunken Master]

Er...East Kaioshin and Kibito can't sense power levels. It's been shown many times, he was just guessing that since Pui Pui was chosen by Babidi, he was strong as hell, but he wasn't. Freeza is way stronger than Pui Pui. There's really no debate there...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He sucks at sensing chi, but he can still sense it to an extent. If Pui-Pui was around 100,000 only, it would be utterly stupid for him to feel they need to work together to win the battle.

[Drunken Master]

But this evil he's telling everyone, that's so horrible, that he's probably seen, felt before...

He couldn't even sense his presence when he was right above him, Gohan actually had to say no, there's something up there strong, this is when Buu comes from the egg.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's a good point, but don't forget he sensed the transformation to Super Buu from the Kaioshin planet. I think he's probably just too stupid to bother being focused enough.

[Drunken Master]

Oh, well, I don't know then. I never payed attention to the Buu saga really, it bored me and really...when Piccolo becomes too weak to do anything, that's when I'm out, lol. I don't like the Buu saga at all. /endrant

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Look on the bright side: At least Tien did better in the Buu saga then Piccolo did. All he did was get turned into stone, and did a stupid dance with Krillin. At least Tien stopped a beam from Gotenks Buu.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

You got me there. I forgot about that part for some reason. He also spit on Babi too, which was pure win considering Kami made him soft a bit.

[Xyex]

He sucks at sensing chi, but he can still sense it to an extent. If Pui-Pui was around 100,000 only, it would be utterly stupid for him to feel they need to work together to win the battle.

It would also be utterly stupid for him to be able to sense ki, have sensed Gohan's SSJ2 power just a few minutes earlier, and then be terrified of someone Vegeta can destroy in base without even trying.

I think, at best, he has a 'minimum level' of power that he can't sense below. Somewhere between Majin Buu and Super Buu. But more than likely he just can't sense actual levels at all and can only sense presences.

[Victator Supreme]

Look on the bright side: At least Tenshinhan did better in the Buu saga then Piccolo did. All he did was get turned into stone, and did a stupid dance with Krillin. At least Tenshinhan stopped a beam from Gotenks Buu.

*Ahem*

Piccolo also sliced Babidi's punk-ass in half with one backhand swipe, and played a rousing game of Buu volleyball with Gotenks. Just saying...

Also had that awsome moment when he destroyed thec door to the time chambr. With a very evil smile taiunting Buu. Or when he stepped in to protect the boys after fusion failed. H knew he had no real hope of winning but was going to try. I liked his role in the Buu saga. I wish he could have fought a bit more. But I liked him as the elder statemen of the group.

[Onikage725]

Freeza only fought SSJ Goku because he's in denial that anyone can be stronger than him. On Earth, when Trunks transformed, it took his father to re-spark his arrogance and denial at being surpassed. And Freeza wiped out the Saiya-jins at the mere thought of the remote chance of Super Saiya-jin even being possible.

In Kaioshin's case he doesn't have the arrogance that Freeza posessed to instill any sort of 'I can't be beaten' mentality in him. So the fact that he's already witnessed Majin's kill the rest of the Kaioshin's is enough to lock him into that "Oh shit, I'm screwed" mentality that Freeza had when he first saw Trunks transform.

I still think it is apples and oranges. Kaioshin witnessed Buu kill his brethren, not random Bibidi/Babidi hench-folk under magical possession. He was also well aware of the difference between the two.

Freeza locked up against Trunks because Goku handed him his ass. Royally. Freeza wiped out their planet because he feared an uprising of an increasingly powerful (and Ozaru-capable) army, not a single warrior.

5,000 not useful? On a world were the average level is 5? Seriously? Taking just one of the Saiya-jins if they were at 5,000 would save them having to find 1,000 other humans to drain. Having 3 of them at around 5,000 sitting right in front of you, whom you can draw energy from fairly quickly, is a huge boost compared to taking hours to track down 3,000 humans and drain them all individually.

I mean comparitively-speaking, and from the perspective of the bad guys.
Obviously Babidi has access to fighters who shit on 5k. I'm not saying 3 guys in that range wouldn't have been moderately helpful, just that they wouldn't have gotten all excited, like they just found something special.

That was my point, though. They're suppresed, and if they are suppressed there's no reason or evidence with which to argue against Option 1.

My problem with that, though, is we know from the Freeza Saga (Gohan and Kuririn overlooking the Namek village attack) and Cell Saga (Trunks' arrival) that if they want to, they can appear as a normal human or even an animal. And they were specifically trying to hide from Babidi and co. But Dabura could still sense them. I've always seen it as a bit of a plothole- it seems as though their SSJ potential was factored into Dabura's decision, but he couldn't possibly know that. It makes perfect sense from *our* perspective. Kuririn and Piccolo were the weakest links. The problem, of course, is the fact that Piccolo is much more badass than a base Saiya-jin. I kind of see it as a small plothole in the manga, and in the anime as the Saiya-jin were stronger in base, cuz that'show Toei rolled. Remember movie 12, when base Gohan slaughters Freeza with one blow? Or even just Gohan starting off normal against Dabura and not getting himself killed in the process. Obviously the guy who wrote that SSJ = 50x increase and the guys writing useage of SSJ for the anime and movies were not the same folk. These people do not seem to agree, and Toriyama didn't address it, so we are left twisting in the wind trying to figure out which source to believe.

Like I said, I don't personally subscribe to Pui Pui being stronger than Freeza's full power, but I also don't think Kaioshin was aware of Freeza's *full* power. Unless he was watching Goku's fight on Namek, Kaioshin should know form 1, maybe 2 or 3, and low level form 4 at most. And I don't necessarily have a problem with Pui Pui being in the low millions or tens of millions. I personally think that he was probablyy anywhere between 2 and 10 million, but that's just an off the cuff estimate. It isn't like there's much to go on.

Babidi's trying to protect himself from a known heavy-hitter, though. Kaioshin. That was his purpose in getting the likes of Dabura on his

I don't dispute that. His reason for having powerful guards doesn't have much bearing on my statement- that he has access to powerful guards in the first place.

Dabura's not even from our universe, though, so he doesn't really count. That's like arguing that Freeza's not the strongest because Kaioshin's out there.

Didn't someone say above that Dabura scouted earth around the time of Daimao's birth? If that's the case, he's been active in the main universe presumably since before Freeza was born. His home being far away or his activities being under the radar shouldn't be cause to disregard that. He was out there and he was powerful.

He sucks at sensing chi, but he can still sense it to an extent. If Pui-Pui was around 100,000 only, it would be utterly stupid for him to feel they need to work together to win the battle.

One of my biggest problems with the series is how inconsistent it gets with that sort of thing. I mean, you have guys who could sense Freeza, at rest, from part way across the solar system (and in Goku's case, apparently from another solar system entirely, since in Trunks' timeline he got to Earth in time to stop Freeza and did so by teleporting to his ki signature). Yet Dabura stands about 2-300 yards away and Goku has to ask "is he strong?" And Vegeta, who made such a big show of his ki-sensing abilities when he got them, spends half the series telling guys a kajillion times stronger than him (I exaggerate) that they don't seem that tough. And Goku does it once too (Kid Buu's emergence). The only characters who are consistently non-retarded are Piccolo and the humans, really. And these are the guys who got benched. And that's why Buu was even revived in the first place.

[mAcChaos]

I don't remember how it is in the original or the manga, but in the dub it's BABIDI who first notes they have visitors.

[Wojak]

Just a question, if Pui Pui is supposed to be around 5,000-40,000 like some of you say, then why should Goku let Krillin go?
He could have been of use then, like fighting Pui Pui whilst the others fought Dabura or something.

In the topic "The final strength of Human Z-fighters", Xyex states:
"Krillin likely got up there to near Ginyu levels prior to the Buu era but would have dropped off after not training."
Okay, let's say he dropped off 50%. Then he would be around 60,000, which is enough to fight Pui Pui, no matter whether he was at 5,000 or 40,000.
So saying that 5,000 would be enough is not that likely, because Krillin would have pummeled Pui Pui.

Goku tells Krillin to leave = Pui Pui is at least a bit over 60,000.

Just some thoughts. Let's debate.

[Xyex]

I still think it is apples and oranges. Kaioshin witnessed Buu kill his brethren, not random Bibidi/Babidi hench-folk under magical possession. He was also well aware of the difference between the two.

It was also SSJ Goku that kicked his ass. Not Trunks. And yet Freeza was still scared of the SSJ look on a new person. But meh, I've got the feeling we'll never agree on this point so we should just move on.

I mean comparitively-speaking, and from the perspective of the bad guys.
Obviously Babidi has access to fighters who shit on 5k. I'm not saying 3 guys in that range wouldn't have been moderately helpful, just that they wouldn't have gotten all excited, like they just found something special.

Eh. I think it was just more that they were happy a few good sources of energy had come to them to help expediate the process, that's all.

Remember movie 12, when base Gohan slaughters Freeza with one blow?

That wasn't base Gohan, that was Ultimate Gohan. Very large difference.

it seems as though their SSJ potential was factored into Dabura's decision, but he couldn't possibly know that.

Actually, I've considered that possibility myself, a few times. Like he was able to vaguely sense that there were reserves of power in the people and that the Saiya-jins, thanks to their transformations, simply had larger reserves. He just couldn't tell how much power was in those reserves.

But it requires more speculation than just assuming that Piccolo's power was supressed further than those of the Saiya-jins, thus making him appear considerably weaker.

Like I said, I don't personally subscribe to Pui Pui being stronger than Freeza's full power, but I also don't think Kaioshin was aware of Freeza's *full* power. Unless he was watching Goku's fight on Namek, Kaioshin should know form 1, maybe 2 or 3, and low level form 4 at most.

Eh, that could go either way, really. Kaioshin knowing about SSJ and about Goku but not about Cell (though oddly still knowing about Gohan being a Super Saiya-jin) opens the possibility he saw the battle against Freeza on Namek. Either that or one of the other Kais (grand Kai, maybe?) gave him a really shitty retelling of Goku's life.

I personally think that he was probablyy anywhere between 2 and 10 million, but that's just an off the cuff estimate. It isn't like there's much to go on.

Heh, we're not really that far off. I'd go anywhere from 1 to 4 million for him.

Didn't someone say above that Dabura scouted earth around the time of Daimao's birth? If that's the case, he's been active in the main universe presumably since before Freeza was born. His home being far away or his activities being under the radar shouldn't be cause to disregard that. He was out there and he was powerful.

That was me.

But that's still stretching it quite a bit. Sure, he was in our universe, but what was he doing? He was traveling around working for Babidi trying to find Buu. I mean, if you want to count Dabura you may as well just count Buu. He was there too, after all. But their both non-factors since they're not natural to that universe.

One of my biggest problems with the series is how inconsistent it gets with that sort of thing.

Very true. It's one of those instance of plot interfering with the common sense of the characters. XD

Just a question, if Pui Pui is supposed to be around 5,000-40,000 like some of you say, then why should Goku let Krillin go?

I don't think anyone is saying that he is around that level. Just that that level would be sufficient on any world that isn't Earth.

So saying that 5,000 would be enough is not that likely, because Krillin would have pummeled Pui Pui.

No one said 5,000 would be enough for anything, I think you misread that part. I was saying that the base Saiya-jins could have been supressed to 5,000. I just picked that level since Goku seems to like it (he used it both times we've seen him come in supressed).

[Wojak]

Aha, okay I get it.
I think that 5000 would be a "low enough" powerlevel for Goku and the others, yeah.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

This is what Ginyu/Goku says about Gohan:

Ginyu: "There was no reading on the scouter. He must be able to suppress his battle strength all the way down to zero."

I think they would perfect this by the Buu saga. So I'm pretty sure when they suppress their chi, they suppress it completely.

Babi was the one that knew they were hiding, then Dabura somehow knew how many were hiding, and which ones to attack.

[Onikage725]

It was also SSJ Goku that kicked his ass. Not Trunks. And yet Freeza was still scared of the SSJ look on a new person. But meh, I've got the feeling we'll never agree on this point so we should just move on.

Eh, I think it would have been more like if Freeza had freaked out at the sight of Gohan (I know he didn't see him, just using that as an example). Freeza being scared of Trunks would, to me, be like Kaioshin running into another Buu-ish creature. Maybe shitting his pants at Janenba or something. I mean, he was scared of Dabura because of his reputation more than the cursive M on his forehead. It just seems odd that a guy in a clearly subordinate position would evoke major concern simply because he was scared of Buu.

But yeah, if we're just coming from two different places on that, I've no problem leaving it be.

That wasn't base Gohan, that was Ultimate Gohan. Very large difference.

That's debatable. Assuming that the movie takes everyone from a certain timeframe but screws with where they ought to be, Gohan should still be on Kaioshinkai and not yet powered up. He also didn't really act like he was, as opposed to the series and movie 13 where he gets SSJ-like in combat. I know his fight with Freeza would only loosely count as "combat," but you get my meaning. I kind of see 12 and 13 (as far as Gohan is concerned) like movie 8 to movie 9- close time frames, and everyone else is of fairly consistent power, but Gohan hasn't upgraded until the latter film.

Either that or one of the other Kais (grand Kai, maybe?) gave him a really shitty retelling of Goku's life.

You know what? Given that Kaioshin's knowledge of current events and what everyone was capable of was about as comprehensive as Gero's in the saga before... that would actually make a lot of sence :p

But that's still stretching it quite a bit. Sure, he was in our universe, but what was he doing? He was traveling around working for Babidi trying to find Buu. I mean, if you want to count Dabura you may as well just count Buu. He was there too, after all. But their both non-factors since they're not natural to that universe.

That doesn't really have much to do with my statement though. I was just saying that, from Babidi's POV (as opposed to ours or the Z Senshi), powerful beings weren't limited to the Z Senshi and Freeza's gang. Where Dabura originates from doesn't matter, since he's existed in this universe since the series began. He could have, theoretically, run afoul of Freeza. And if he had, he would have made him look like a pathetic scrub. And Buu is irrelevant because he was in stasis, and the characters didn't get strong enough to awaken him until around the Cell Saga. How wicked would it have been if Babidi had been around to majin Cell? Or even worse, taken advantage of the uncontrolled rage in Gohan's heart to make a slave out of him...
And yes I've geeked out to that idea long before Budokai 2.