The Final Strength of Human Z-Fighters

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:26 pm

I'm pretty sure it's stated to be only come from a near death experience, I understand what you're saying, but look at it like this...If Goku gets a bloody nose, I'm sure his power level won't go up slightly when he recovers. Zenkai powerups were always stated by be that, near death, it doesn't even have to include damage as in the Buu saga, when Gohan gets all his ki/chi drained, and then recovered by Kibito...he was much stronger. Which of course, little to no ki/chi means you're about to kick the can, IE Tenshinhan. And even if you could get a zenkai, when you're already dead (which doesn't make any bit of sense) North Kaio would never have brought Goku close to death or even damage him badly. So I'm pretty sure Goku getting zenkai power at North Kaio's place is out, at least in my opinion.

I think you guys are really relying on too much math (I said in my thread that I don't use math, I just did this time to show that 11,000 was WAY too low IMO as an example) because really...it has nothing to do with that. It's story progression, and Mr. AT's need to keep the main cast powerful to stop, stand up to, and at least be somewhat near the villains power levels. IE, Goku trained for 3 years with Kami and Popo, and got a boost in power, but it was no where near Tenshinhan's boost in power when he only stayed 6 months. He went from 250-1,830. Goku went from 260 to below 416, which was his power when Raditz showed up. Piccolo stayed for 6 days at North Kaio's and Nail was astonished at his power, so why wouldn't Tenshinhan be really strong after his long training? He and Piccolo were training for the same reason, to beat Goku, and Tenshinhan even has his own little speech in his head about his training there. Just look at this equation then and compare the results of the training...

a. Compare Goku's 3 year result from training with Kami/Popo to Tenshinhan's 6 months of training with Kami/Popo.

b. Then compare that to Goku's 158 days of training with North Kaio, to Tenshinhan's 265 days of training with North Kaio.

Then factor in these training boosters for the North Kaio training...

-He was training to defeat Goku, meaning he was training at his best
-Yamcha could barely move in 10x gravity at 1,480
-Training partners the whole time
-No need to waste time learning techniques
-How strong Piccolo got in six days
-He received training more difficult than Goku's

Now take a guess at what you think his power level would be!

I'm not hard headed, or trying to push my opinions on people, but I so strongly believe that people really underestimate the strength of the "old cast" then I'm compelled to keep replying.

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 · Post by **Super Saiyan Turlast x4** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:15 am

Drunken Master wrote: How long Piccolo was up there

On Kaio's? Six days.

How many days Goku was up there

158 days.

How long Tenshinhan trained with Popo

Six months.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:20 pm

You're the man now dog. Seriously though, thanks!

Cool, edited my above post finally.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:34 pm

Now take a guess at what you think his power level would be!

Somewhere in the 20,000s.

You act like I and the others on the opposite side of the debate haven't already considered all of this. We have.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:58 pm

I just don't see how you can get that. Especially if you really considered all of what I stated, from the manga. So...Tenshinhan gets a much bigger boost in power than Goku does in way less time with his Kami training, but then somehow doesn't when he trains way longer than Goku, with all those plus side training factors? I mean, we actually see how the results of Kaio's new harder training methods, in 6 days Piccolo was far stronger. For Nail to be "astonished" Piccolo would have to be at least 2x as strong as a normal 3,000 namek warrior, but i still don't think that's enough for a 42,000 fighter to say that Piccolo has an "astonishing amount of power". Wasn't Piccolo so confident in his power, that he tells North Kaio he wants to take on Freeza?

I mean Tenshinhan started his training with Kami/Popo at 250, and ended up at 1,830 in a much shorter time than Goku. Goku started at 260, and ended up below 416. You can't ignore that fact.

Yeah yeah, Ginyu is supposed to be the second strongest in the universe, and it would boggle some people's minds if Tenshinhan and the others got close to his power level, but Ginyu wasn't trained by a god of the universe. Tenshinhan was. What was North Kaio's example of his training? "158 days with me is like a few thousand years of training on earth." Well, that's what he said to Goku. Now, Kaio trained Tenshinhan harder than Goku for 265 days.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 6:43 am

I think that a powerlevel of 20,000 is absurd.
Drunken Master makes a lot of good points there, and to ignore them is kinda...not smart.
As Yajirobe got too weak, he was kinda removed as a fighter (even though he wasn't really one to begin with), but the humans are kept around. Then even fight a bit.
If the humans were so weak, not even a controlled punch from the Cell Jrs. would have kept them alive when they beat the crap out of them.
Sure, the humans did not put up with a good fight, but they survived.

I don't think logically about this, not at all. All I think of is how Toriyama thought when he wrote the manga, and by his patterns in the story.
And going by how I experience the story, the humans got a lot stronger than some of you guys here think. Just not strong enough to be able to fight Freeza or the Androids/Cyborgs/Artificial Humans.
My theory is a end-battle power above 120,000, but that's me.

If I was to think logically, I would have bought Drunken Master's theory.
Goku and the others got strong as hell, and for the humans to be able to even be of use, they had to get stronger with Goku and the others.
A simple Toriyama solution, which was made a lot in Dragonball.
Just like the fusion or the "Mystic" powerup in the later Buu saga, or just simply the room of spirit of time, or the Guru Powerup thet Gohan and Kuririn got.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:28 pm

Yeah, I mean if the earthlings are so weak, why would they, or Goku for that matter, want to help with the androids? Goku didn't tell Tenshinhan to leave when they (Goku, Ten, Piccolo) were about to take off to fight #19 and #20. And Tenshinhan was strong enough to be hand picked by Piccolo to look for Cell, and to fight him.

If Krillin was so weak, then his head should have exploded as soon as Perfect Cell's foot got even close to him, also there's no logical way, of even beginning to explain how Tenshinhan held Cell off, if he was that low in power. And Wojak makes a good point about the Cell Jrs.

Super 17 · Post by **Super 17** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:46 pm

Drunken Master wrote:Yeah, I mean if the earthlings are so weak, why would they, or Goku for that matter, want to help with the androids? Goku didn't tell Tenshinhan to leave when they (Goku, Ten, Piccolo) were about to take off to fight #19 and #20. And Tenshinhan was strong enough to be hand picked by Piccolo to look for Cell, and to fight him.

Tenshinhan in no doubt always fights and helps out. Yamcha and Kuririn are always chickens. I say Tenshinhan is at his strongest point is at the end of the Cell arc. At the end is safe to say Tenshinhan is stronger than Ginyu, but not by much.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:08 pm

If Krillin was so weak, then his head should have exploded as soon as Perfect Cell's foot got even close to him, also there's no logical way, of even beginning to explain how Tenshinhan held Cell off, if he was that low in power.

Yeah, because we all know that Hercule's head exploded when Cell hit him.

Tri-beam = POWERFUL

Super Tri-beam = EXTREMELY POWERFUL

Really, it's just that simple.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:09 pm

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:33 pm

The ki cannon is not some big gun. Whatever power it has is because Tenshinhan put his own life force into. Which means his life force has incredible power behind it. Its an attack that would vaporise full power Frieza* and you expect us to think it Ten himself could not kick the shit out of Ginyu? I mean come on.

*If it was able to kep Second Form Cell down. Even Frieza and early SSJ Goku are dead.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:03 pm

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:32 pm

I don't think the Kienzan's ever failed; it always misses or if it hits it cuts through like butter. The only times it hits and fails is in filler.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:34 pm

mAcChaos wrote:I don't think the Kienzan's ever failed; it always misses or if it hits it cuts through like butter. The only times it hits and fails is in filler.

I can't remember who, but I vaguely remember one of the stronger villains catching it or it bouncing off of them?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:55 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:I can't remember who, but I vaguely remember one of the stronger villains catching it or it bouncing off of them?

It shattered on Cell's neck - filler.
Cell threw two at SSJ2 Gohan and he caught them - filler.

It always works in the manga.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:37 pm

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:40 pm

Kunzait_83 wrote:
Rocketman wrote:It shattered on Cell's neck - filler.
Cell threw two at SSJ2 Gohan and he caught them - filler.

It always works in the manga.
Alright, alright, my bad!

Forgot one though; Vinegar catches it and throws it back at Kuririn in the Garlic Jr. filler-arc.

Toei really must hate Kuririn, they make an unstoppable attack and the coolest thing Kuririn has fail not once, not twice, but three! times in their filler.

Drunken Master · Post by **Drunken Master** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:50 pm

lol...

The Tree of Might big red indian guy pretty much tornado bitch-slaps it back at Krillin. Poor guy.

I'm not making Tenshinhan out to be strong as a SSj, I'm just debating that he's way past 20,000 when he gets revived. Honestly, with looking at past traning boosts, and how Mr. AT changed power gains...I'd honestly say Tenshinhan would be around Ginyu's strength when he gets revived. My opinion of course.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:08 am

SSJ2bardock wrote:Toei really must hate Kuririn, they make an unstoppable attack and the coolest thing Kuririn has fail not once, not twice, but three! times in their filler.

Yeah. Toei definitely like to mess around with peoples ultimate attacks. Another example is Vegeta's Final Flash against the Cell Junior.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:11 am

Kid Trunks wrote:
SSJ2bardock wrote:Toei really must hate Kuririn, they make an unstoppable attack and the coolest thing Kuririn has fail not once, not twice, but three! times in their filler.
Yeah. Toei definitely like to mess around with peoples ultimate attacks. Another example is Vegeta's Final Flash against the Cell Junior.

You mean the gellatinous blob that resembling something like Vegeta's ultimate attack?

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The Final Strength of Human Z-Fighters

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