Vegeta SSJ2 (Seven Years or Majin?)

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:07 pm

I believe Vejita was probably around the same level as Gohan was against Cell, if not slightly higher, simply because of his attitude towards Gohan throughout the fight with Dabura (I'm trying to remember, Gohan goes SSJ2 at the Budokai and in Babidi's ship when they reach the inner chamber, but did he do it against Dabura too?). I can't think of anything conclusive though, simply because we only see Vejita as an SSJ while training for the Budokai, then fighting Goku. Oh well, at least I can say nothing shows *either* way ;p

A related question I have asked is: Does Vejita *keep* the power increase from Babidi? I always believed the possession was a different component of the spell, tempting a dark heart with power and *then* branding them with his demonic magic, so just because he isn't Majin when he comes back doesn't mean he didn't keep the power increase, plus any sort of Zenkai powerup. Ideas?

-Corey

*PINHEAD* · Post by ***PINHEAD*** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:45 pm

It doesn't really matter whether he kept it or not. Either way he ended up more powerful, at least I thought so, when he comes back. He died, so I'm assuming his Saiyan blood made him more powerful, but I don't think he kept the Majin power.
And, uh...zenkai?

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:24 pm

There really is no way of telling whether he "kept" any possible powerup or not. He was definitely SSJ2 against Kid Buu, but it's not totally certain whether he could already do that or not. I do have doubts about the near-death trait applying to actual death, however.

But there's something else I'd like to add. The story had basically been building up towards a big Gokuu vs Vegeta fight, but there's no way that Gokuu would have just stepped aside for a friendly brawl in the middle of dealing with a big new villain. Vegeta made it a point to say that the only reason he was involved with any of it was to fight Gokuu, and becoming evil again was the perfect way (and probably only way) to grab Gokuu's attention and get his fight. The story seems to hint that the entire point of his becoming "Majin" was for a grand Gokuu verses an evil Vegeta battle, and not simply as a powerup method.

Of course, that's still just 100% my interpretation. I think the answer is just that: all up to personal interpretation.

SDHero · Post by **SDHero** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:59 pm

The real problem here is that Toriyama has changed the way he draws the characters yet again, and so, at this point it's pretty impossible to tell the difference between SSJ and SSJ2, largely because SSJ2 pretty much replaces SSJ for Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta.

In any case, I don't recall ever seeing the SSJ2 "electricity" on Vegeta before the Majin powerup, and it's pretty unlike Vegeta to start a fight at one level of strength and then raise it if things get tough, though Goku does this frequently. Vegeta tends to go whole-hog from the beginning, so I tend to think this means the Majin powerup pushed Vegeta over the edge to SSJ2, and from that point on he was able to close the gap on his own (because he'd been "shown the way" or what have you). That's the best I can come up with.

Muten Turtel · Post by **Muten Turtel** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:00 pm

I dought Vegeta could have reached SSJ2 before the Babidi power up. Vegeta undergoes a strong change of emotion and that makes him go to the next level. I also don't think Vegeta would figure he could get stronger after reaching SSJ2 (just as he thought USSJ was the ultimate form.) Otherwise why bother with Babidi or do we count the fact that he would just go purely evil for almost no reason when he seems to think this is an extreme power up while still staying SSJ2 which would contridict my original thinking.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:42 pm

Why would the "Majin charm" allow Vegeta to become SSJ2, anyway? It restored his original, "evil" personality (to a limited extent) and increased his power. (by an unknown amount) Why would that give him the ability to achieve a new level of Super Saiya-jin?

Vegeta transforms effortlessly the first time we see him demonstrate SSJ2 -- he doesn't appear to be "showing off" a previously unattainable stage. He continues to use SSJ2 like second nature throughout the remainder of the Buu Saga. The initial transformation into a "Majin" couldn't have triggered SSJ2 for Vegeta, because (IIRC) he doesn't actually become SSJ2 at that moment. (so it's not like Gohan's "aaaarrrgh!" KAPOW! transformation in the Cell Saga)

With that all in mind, I find it hard to believe that Vegeta couldn't already reach SSJ2.

*PINHEAD* · Post by ***PINHEAD*** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:01 pm

Again, as I've said before, I don't think of SSJ2 as a definite level, but rather just a more powerful and angry (the restless ki and electricity aura) form of SSJ1. Possibly, by making Vegeta more powerful, the Majin power up made his Super Saiyan state more powerful, thus becoming what is known as Super Saiyan 2. Or this power up just simply allowed him to access SSJ2, much like how once a Saiyan achieves the first Super Saiyan state, he has access to it from then on.
Anywho, EX was looking for evidence to whether Vegeta did or did not achieve Super Saiyan 2 by the time he recieved the Majin power up. There really isn't any solid facts that have come up yet.

Entropy · Post by **Entropy** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:23 am

Well, when he goes SSJ2 before he fights Goku, he just does it.
There is none of the "Oh my god vegeta is Super Saiyan 2!!!"
If the Majin Charm had enabled him to do it, he would have had a big dramatic first time transformation.

Goku goes SSJ2, Vegeta just retaliates with SSJ2. You couldn't do that if it was your first time.

Although there is no line where Vegeta says, "Yep I went SSJ2 in the last 7 years" or something to that effect.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 12:04 pm

Entropy wrote:Well, when he goes SSJ2 before he fights Goku, he just does it.
There is none of the "Oh my god vegeta is Super Saiyan 2!!!"
If the Majin Charm had enabled him to do it, he would have had a big dramatic first time transformation.

Goku goes SSJ2, Vegeta just retaliates with SSJ2. You couldn't do that if it was your first time.

Although there is no line where Vegeta says, "Yep I went SSJ2 in the last 7 years" or something to that effect.

While I agree that Vejita went SSJ2 before Babidi laid his magic on him, one could argue that Vejita went SSJ and had a dramatic transformation against #19...and we found out a couple of minutes later that it wasn't his first time either. Same for Trunks.

-Corey

The S · Post by **The S** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:26 pm

Just to point something out while we're on the subject... (and I know it's non-canon)... when Vegeta and Dabra die, they lose the Majin mark, but Pui Pui and Yakon didn't when they returned in GT... crazy, crazy Toei...

*PINHEAD* · Post by ***PINHEAD*** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:28 pm

One can assume that Vegeta already achieved Super Saiyan 2 by the time Babidi did his magic stuff, since Toriyama has a way of having Vegeta lag behind, then catch up in between story arcs (only to be outdone again). I don't really care if he did or did not, but it seems to me that he didn't. It's not that he "transformed" into SSJ2, but rather just powered up. It would be redundant to have every single first-time transformation be dramatic. Toriyama made the first couple Super Saiyan transformations dramatic since it was still pretty new in the series, and to show some relevance to the plot. By making it unclear whether Vegeta did or didn't become SSJ2 by then, you can just say it's not really that important. Vegeta also would've hinted something about his new transformation probaby.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:58 pm

I always felt that Vegeta achieved SSJ2 between the Cell+Buu arcs and that he went Majin either because he wanted to be EXACTLY as strong as Goku when they fought, and/or to simply remove his "Earthly-acquired" conscience(sp?).

SuperFusion · Post by **SuperFusion** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:15 pm

When Vegeta started telling his story in the anime, he mentioned Goku's fight with Yakon or w/e and he said something like, "Even after seven years of hard training, the gap between our powers will never close. That's when I got the idea, if Babidi can amke an regular human that powerful, imagine what it could do for my power?".

Believe me, I'm a DBZ Freak, I believe he only went SSJ2 because of Babidi's power.

Majin = Evil don't it?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:04 pm

SuperFusion wrote:When Vegeta started telling his story in the anime, he mentioned Goku's fight with Yakon or w/e and he said something like, "Even after seven years of hard training, the gap between our powers will never close. That's when I got the idea, if Babidi can amke an regular human that powerful, imagine what it could do for my power?".

Believe me, I'm a DBZ Freak, I believe he only went SSJ2 because of Babidi's power.

Majin = Evil don't it?

Yeah NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US is a hardcore fan here, nor did we ever take into effect what was said in either the anime or manga before. God we're stupid.

As I said, I assumed what Vegeta said meant that he realized that despite his ability to go SSJ2, he was still far from Goku's level. It's like the Cell Games: Goku was a shitload stronger than Vegeta, but both could only go SSJ1.

SuperFusion · Post by **SuperFusion** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:24 pm

<----------------------- = Owned..

Why didn't he turn SSJ2 in that ship he was training in with Trunks?

He was training in the room before Trunks and all and he was only at Super Saiyan. I think he would turn SSJ2 if he were to train to get stronger under an more intense gravitational pull... Am I right?

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:28 pm

But then you only see Vegeta training once, and that was with Trunks in the room. If he were to seriously train as a SSJ2, it would require a gravity level that would squash Trunks flat.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:30 pm

SuperFusion wrote: He was training in the room before Trunks and all and he was only at Super Saiyan. I think he would turn SSJ2 if he were to train to get stronger under an more intense gravitational pull... Am I right?

No.

Your theory's flawed. If SSJ2 makes the gravitational pull weaker, than it would make the training too easy.

SDHero · Post by **SDHero** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:33 pm

But Vegeta could just turn up the gravity, couldn't he? Why would he want to train at a lower level than he's capable of?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:06 pm

Because he was trying to get his son to train too, and having Trunks be squashed flat wouldn't help him get stronger.

Also, characters quite often train at levels less than they are capable off. Goku trained in 100g gravity on the way to Namek, but is seen training several times after in less strong gravity (and often in his non-SSJ form too).

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:07 pm

SDHero wrote:But Vegeta could just turn up the gravity, couldn't he? Why would he want to train at a lower level than he's capable of?

Most likely to avoid killing TRUNKS. At the time he didn't know little T could go SSJ, and probably wanted to avoid squishin' 'em.

We already know Vegeta could handle higher Gs in NON-SSJ so who cares what his reasons were?

Kanzenshuu

Vegeta SSJ2 (Seven Years or Majin?)

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