Vegeta, Geography Errors, and Self References

DrVenkman · Post by **DrVenkman** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:32 pm

A few questions...

Was Vegeta as popular in Japan as he seems here? I ask this because he seems like such an absolute jobber (excuse the wrestling-speak) in the movies. Outside of his debut in #6, it's pretty much all downhill. I understand his whining and moaning about being helpless in #8 was part of the story, but by the time we get to #12 he's getting his ass handed to him and needs to fuse with Goku, and in #13 he makes a cameo where he gets KO'd in about 15 seconds after saving some people.

We all get pissed off when the dub makes 'real world' references, but I've noticed that this happens a few times in the original as well. I believe Japan is mentioned in the 8th movie, and there are a few posters in DB that say "Japan" on them as well. Blame Toei?

Lastly, what is the deal with the self references? Going back to Dragonball, I noticed there were actually some posters in the city that said "Dragonball" and in an episode of Z there was a man wearing a shirt that said "The Super Saiyan" (which I found rather odd). Again, blame Toei?

I know that these are all basically a matter of opinion (and just me noticing things and commenting), but if anyone has any comments about it, that would be great.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:36 pm

DrVenkman wrote:Was Vegeta as popular in Japan as he seems here? I ask this because he seems like such an absolute jobber (excuse the wrestling-speak) in the movies. Outside of his debut in #6, it's pretty much all downhill. I understand his whining and moaning about being helpless in #8 was part of the story, but by the time we get to #12 he's getting his ass handed to him and needs to fuse with Goku, and in #13 he makes a cameo where he gets KO'd in about 15 seconds after saving some people.

I remember reading that was one of the reasons Toriyama killed him off in the Buu saga... fans liked the character so much, and Toriyama didn't, so he said "Haha!" and made him go BOOM!

sailorspazz · Post by **sailorspazz** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:25 pm

DrVenkman wrote:A few questions...

We all get pissed off when the dub makes 'real world' references, but I've noticed that this happens a few times in the original as well. I believe Japan is mentioned in the 8th movie, and there are a few posters in DB that say "Japan" on them as well. Blame Toei?

I would say blame Toei (it's so easy to do....especially when doing it to the tune of "Blame Canada" ^_^) The manga never makes any reference to Japan or any other countries that exist in our world, so it wasn't Toriyama-sensei's doing. At least real world references were rare in Toei's works (the only one I can think of is the one you mention in movie 8, though I haven't seen the whole series in Japanese yet)....Funimation just does them way too much (though they've gotten better).

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 10:54 pm

I think I remember Chris Psaros making a comment on that "The Super Saiyan" shirt (wait, did Psaros even make it that far? What saga was the guy in?) and I think it was FUNimation that put that on his shirt. While I have seen english writing on people's clothes before in japanese versions of certain anime, there's also the fact that it is spelt the North American way... FUNimation has done some really useless things (like painting a rock next to Gohan for no reason in one of the earliest episodes).

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:03 pm

The guy wearing the "SUPER SAIYAN" shirt is in the Perfect Cell saga, and this time it wasn't FUNimations doing. It's still like that in japanese, and doesn't show any signs of digital editing (added lettering will usually shake slightly when watched closely) Ha, further proof that it's spelled 'Saiyan' and not 'Saiya-jin'

Post by **VegettoEX** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 1:29 am

Deus ex Machina wrote:The guy wearing the "SUPER SAIYAN" shirt is in the Perfect Cell saga, and this time it wasn't FUNimations doing. It's still like that in japanese, and doesn't show any signs of digital editing (added lettering will usually shake slightly when watched closely) Ha, further proof that it's spelled 'Saiyan' and not 'Saiya-jin'

It's not really "proving" anything. Bandai was using the "SAIYAN" spelling on the Super Battle Collection figures long before FUNimation ever got to DBZ. Other countries used "Saiyan," too.

It would indeed be spelled "Saiya-jin." A good English-ization (or rather, Latin-based alphabet-ization) would be "Saiyan," which is why it's used.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 3:25 am

I never said that the word 'Saiyan' was a FUNimation or dub creation. It's just that the japanese use the -jin suffix (sp?) whenever talking about a race. But that's just a cultural thing, it wouldn't make much sence to leave it like that, which is why I'm guessing toei wrote it as Saiyan as well.

Jakez04 · Post by **Jakez04** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:09 pm

I really don't know how a guy's shirt brings up a topic but ow well. I saw a guy's shirt in dragonball series and had the Caspule Corp label on it. What is with that? Did Toei do this or funimation or no one did this at all?

spooky..................

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:36 pm

Maybe it was the Capsule Corp doing some marketing? They do sell clothes.

DrVenkman · Post by **DrVenkman** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 8:21 pm

In fairness, my main question was about Vegeta. I was just curious if there was a reason there were insider references despite being pretty sure there wasn't.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:46 pm

Here's way to stay on topic of Vegita and shirts. Let's talk about Vegita's shirt! The pink one with "Bad Man" written on it. I laughed the entire time he was wearing that, through both the manga and anime!

Do you think he'll ever live that one down?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sun Jan 25, 2004 10:16 pm

You can accuse FUNimation of many things, but I really can't see them adding random names onto shirts.

Although, if we're talking about real world references, the following confused me. I shall start a new paragraph for no reason.

As some of you know, the PAL version of Budokai is subbed. Episode 5 of the Saiyan saga (Super Duel!) has the following subtitles:

Vegeta: Ha, ha, ha... You must be happy that a super-elite warrior deigns to play with little 'uns like you.

Goku: That remains to be seen... Goliath apparently had a tough time of it from a little guy who tried hard.

Vegeta: Ha, ha, ha... Well, I'll show you a wall which you won't ever get over just by trying.

(DRAMATIC POSES THAT NEITHER CHARACTER EVER DOES AGAIN!)

...

So, where does this dialogue come from? I have no idea if it's what the characters are actually saying. Is it close to the dialogue from the original episode (Japanese or English)?

Pancakes · Post by **Pancakes** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 7:40 pm

Jakez04 wrote:I really don't know how a guy's shirt brings up a topic but ow well. I saw a guy's shirt in dragonball series and had the Caspule Corp label on it. What is with that? Did Toei do this or funimation or no one did this at all? spooky..................

There is also a character in the Trunks TV special holding a ballon with D.B.S.F, an acronym for DragonBall Special Forces, or something of the like.

And also characters wander about with shirts saying 'BIRD' on them - as in Toriyama's Bird Studios.

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:45 pm

Pancakes wrote: There is also a character in the Trunks TV special holding a ballon with D.B.S.F, an acronym for DragonBall Special Forces, or something of the like.

Actually, from what I remember reading in Daizenshuu 6, it says "DBSP," and stands for "Dragon Ball Special Presentation" (or "Production"), because it's a TV special.

The series and movies are also rife with in-jokes: when Goku is looking for Bulma's house in DB, a poster near the alley where he gets "mugged" has a poster for the TV show; a ferris wheel in DBZ movie 3 has "DBZ" written on it; Gohan has an Arale-chan poster hin his room in DBZ Movie 4; and Toriyama's robot form appears in Movie 10.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 3:05 am

Concerning Vegeta, the reason Toriyama didn't like him was because he thought that Vegeta was too harsh. As far as I've seen, Toriyama didn't like harsh or rough characters (except Piccolo, of course.). His mangas used to have an 'Ask Me Anything' section, where he responded to letters. One reader wrote him about how they liked Bulma and he responded that he was surprised that he was getting so many letters about her, that he didn't like harsh, brash girls like her. In one interview, he said that the reason that he had created Bra was because he thought Vegeta was too harsh, and he wanted to soften the Saiya-jin Prince.

Besides, regardless of why Toriyama was getting rid of Vegeta for a while, Veggie still had one of the best death scenes in the series when he self-destructed. Long live the Saiya-jin no Ouji! ^_^

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:17 pm

DrVenkman wrote:Lastly, what is the deal with the self references? Going back to Dragonball, I noticed there were actually some posters in the city that said "Dragonball" and in an episode of Z there was a man wearing a shirt that said "The Super Saiyan" (which I found rather odd). Again, blame Toei?

Err, no, those posters were all drawn by Toriyama as an inside gag.. He actually did stuff like that quite a few times, however unnoticed it might be. Remember Dragon Ball isn't meant to be entirely serious. But that isn't to say TOEI never put any inside references in themselves... Cuz they did. The Super Saiyan shirt is an example. And does everyone remember in Movie three at the carnaval in the city, that ''DBZ'' was portrayed on one of the attractions?

There. That's enough of me being an annoying little show-off for the day.

DrVenkman · Post by **DrVenkman** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 9:38 pm

On the subject of 'in jokes', while re-watching some episodes I noticed that Red and Black were making the Great Sayiaman movie. Not seeing the original DB until this year, I had never noticed that before.

Pancakes · Post by **Pancakes** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 9:41 pm

D.B.S.P., eh? Oh, well...my bad.

I think that the whole Commander Red/Black thing was great in the fact that they'd.........uh.....died in the first Red Ribbon story arc.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Thu Feb 05, 2004 11:11 pm

They seemed to be getting along just fine, too.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Fri Feb 06, 2004 12:04 am

To be fair, dying doesn't stop most people in Dragonball, so they're hardly unique.

Kanzenshuu

Vegeta, Geography Errors, and Self References

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