Opinion of Sabat?

[SSJ2bardock]

Are fans of the dub not allowed to have their own thoughts and preferences when it comes to Dragonball?

They are, but to say it "doesn't fit" when the dub is no where like the original is where it gets problematic.

All of your other comments were fine, this is the only one I had a problem with. In my opinion, the music from the original doesn't fit the show in most places because believe it or not DBZ is an action anime, sure it has other elements to it like comedy and romance, but at it's core Dragonball Z is a show about action.

To justify that the music fits simply because the original producer thought it did is basically the same as saying that a movie is good just because one of the actors in it said it was.

-edit- oh, sorry EX I didn't realize you were talking to me

[bkev]

On this whole argument over the particular scene - it seems to me that FUNi may have gotten closer to the manga, but I think they overdid it. had they just had him say something along the lines of "No, Trunks! My son!" rather than a long monologue - and had some more dramatic silence than the original (which would have been a FIRST), that would have been the best scenario. As it stand now, both versions IMO miss the big picture.

Now back on topic. I'm biased towards Sabat becuase I grew up on him, but I will admit that his Vegeta in the most recent dubs is too deep for my tastes. It's not so much the deepness as it is that there's something missing; feels kind of empty.

[MajinVejitaXV]

In the JP Anime, Vegeta goes on his typical pride binge. Trunks death takes a complete back seat and dampers a very important character development moment for Vegeta. The Dub makes it all about Trunks just as Toriyama intended.

Hm, I disagree (and this is on-topic, I promise). The dub took an issue that was obvious (yes, Vegeta is angry that Trunks is dead) and tried too hard to give it a voice. I mean, does it really need to be dragged out so much for viewers to understand that Vegeta is angry? The Japanese version, even if it goes in a slightly different direction with Vegeta's pride taking the center stage, shows Vegeta's anger without hitting you over the head with it repeatedly.

The same can be said of Sabat's performance. It seems over-the-top, just like the English script. It isn't believable in the least to me. To me, it's a classic indicator of why I don't think Sabat was a good fit for the character.

Come on, that's bull and you know it. The JP Anime was not a "subtle" change. It's the JP Anime that did the 180.

Not at all. Vegeta's character is the thing that was changed. Vegeta didn't go as soft as the dub implies, and perhaps he wasn't as cold as the original anime implies. It's subjective. In my opinion, Vegeta was just barely starting to realize the importance of others. And, much like a child psychologically, since he wasn't fully developed in that area emotionally his immediate jump is to thinking about himself and flying into a rage.

This acts as a contrast to Vegeta's actions later in the Boo arc, wherein he seems more fully developed and truly expresses affection and selfless concern for his son. It doesn't just happen all of the sudden however.

-Corey

[Gozar]

Hm, I disagree (and this is on-topic, I promise). The dub took an issue that was obvious (yes, Vegeta is angry that Trunks is dead) and tried too hard to give it a voice. I mean, does it really need to be dragged out so much for viewers to understand that Vegeta is angry? The Japanese version, even if it goes in a slightly different direction with Vegeta's pride taking the center stage, shows Vegeta's anger without hitting you over the head with it repeatedly.

I'm sorry, but this is just too much. I don't really think you care about Toriyama's intentions at all. Just putting down FUNi. Toei did not take a SLIGHTLY different route. They changed Vegeta's development moment into just an every day Vegeta moment. What was supposed to be a defining moment of clarity for his character. Toei made into just another Vegeta rage attack. FUNi may have gone over the top with it. But at least their focus was on Trunks and only Trunks as Toriyama intended.

In my opinion, Vegeta was just barely starting to realize the importance of others. And, much like a child psychologically, since he wasn't fully developed in that area emotionally his immediate jump is to thinking about himself and flying into a rage.

This acts as a contrast to Vegeta's actions later in the Boo arc, wherein he seems more fully developed and truly expresses affection and selfless concern for his son. It doesn't just happen all of the sudden however

But that's not how Toriyama intended it. He WANTED it to be this moment of sudden clarity. That's Toriyama's writing style. He DID make it all of a sudden. His intentions are clear...Look at the later dialogue.

Yamcha: He must've been really angry when you were killed. He attacked Cell without a thought for his own safety.

Trunks: Dad did that...For me?

And again...

Trunks: It's just like you told me about Dad. He wasn't heartless in the end. He went crazy when he thought Cell had killed me.

Toriyama clearly seems to be driving this point home.

[bkev]

Gozar, I think you're starting to get a bit angry. Saying he doesn't care about Toriyama's intentions is taking it too far. You both have good points. Again, I think both the dub and the anime got it wrong; the dub took it too far, and the anime went in another direction with his anger. I honestly don't think Vegeta did any more thinking than "OH NO!" or something. He didn't need an internal monologue like FUNi, and his pride didn't need to be the focus like TOEi made it.

Can we stop arguing? T_T

[MajinVejitaXV]

I don't really think you care about Toriyama's intentions at all. Just putting down FUNi.

And that's where this exchange ends. You have good points and I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have a different opinion. Shifting to personal attacks means this isn't worth my time though.

-Corey

[Raki]

Well, it was kinda Goku's and Gohan's fault for Trunks' death. I really didn't need a wall of extra dialogue from Sabat/Funi to know Vegeta was pissed. Him seeing Trunks coughing up blood was enough for him to take revenge against his sons murder in his own hands. He wasn't going to leave it up to Gohan to do it. All from the Japanese version. The Funi/Sabat version just goes explaining everything and killing the moment.

[Gozar]

I don't really think you care about Toriyama's intentions at all. Just putting down FUNi.

And that's where this exchange ends. You have good points and I'm not saying you're wrong, I just have a different opinion. Shifting to personal attacks means this isn't worth my time though.

-Corey

That's what qualifies as a personal attack these days? All I'm saying is, FUNi may have been over the top. But atleast his reasoning didn't change. Seriously, I've seen you put down FUNi time and time again for changes (With good reason). But now you defend a major change by Toei when FUNi was clearly closer?

I honestly don't think Vegeta did any more thinking than "OH NO!" or something. He didn't need an internal monologue like FUNi, and his pride didn't need to be the focus like TOEi made it

Agreed

[Tsukento]

I'm surprised we've gone through this whole discussion and not one person poked fun at Krillin's line about Trunks still being alive and that he's moving just as he coughs up blood.

[Rocketman]

Well, it was kinda Goku's and Gohan's fault for Trunks' death. I really didn't need a wall of extra dialogue from Sabat/Funi to know Vegeta was pissed. Him seeing Trunks coughing up blood was enough for him to take revenge against his sons murder in his own hands. He wasn't going to leave it up to Gohan to do it. All from the Japanese version. The Funi/Sabat version just goes explaining everything and killing the moment.

I blame the anime. FUNi wouldn't be able to make these long-ass speeches if there weren't long-ass stretches of time where the characters did nothing and we got a flashback to what just fucking happened.

[Tsukento]

I blame the anime. FUNi wouldn't be able to make these long-ass speeches if there weren't long-ass stretches of time where the characters did nothing and we got a flashback to what just fucking happened.

I...really don't see how that logic works. Blame the anime for FUNi's choice in making a long winded speech? What?

[Gozar]

I'm surprised we've gone through this whole discussion and not one person poked fun at Krillin's line about Trunks still being alive and that he's moving just as he coughs up blood.

Well...Aren't you still technically alive if you cough up blood? His body did move. He just died moments after.

[Rocketman]

I blame the anime. FUNi wouldn't be able to make these long-ass speeches if there weren't long-ass stretches of time where the characters did nothing and we got a flashback to what just fucking happened.

I...really don't see how that logic works. Blame the anime for FUNi's choice in making a long winded speech? What?

Funi's mistakes would not have been possible without Toei's.

[Gozar]

I blame the anime. FUNi wouldn't be able to make these long-ass speeches if there weren't long-ass stretches of time where the characters did nothing and we got a flashback to what just fucking happened.

I...really don't see how that logic works. Blame the anime for FUNi's choice in making a long winded speech? What?

Funi's mistakes would not have been possible without Toei's.

I wouldn't go that far. The space to add in dialogue does not change the changes that FUNi made when they were supposed to be talking.

[SSJ2bardock]

I'm surprised we've gone through this whole discussion and not one person poked fun at Krillin's line about Trunks still being alive and that he's moving just as he coughs up blood.

Well...Aren't you still technically alive if you cough up blood? His body did move. He just died moments after.

Exactly, Kuririn was just pointing out that he was still alive because I'm sure at least one person there thought he was dead.

[B-kun]

In the dub, I think he said it something like "He's still alive! He'll be fine!". Or that's how my memory has it. Which is odd, cause you'd think they would've been past that...

[SSJ2bardock]

In the dub, I think he said it something like "He's still alive! He'll be fine!". Or that's how my memory has it. Which is odd, cause you'd think they would've been past that...

He said, "Look Trunks is moving! He's still alive!"

[laserkid]

To pull this back a little on topic, I think Sabat isn't a bad voice actor, but I don't think he fits well in DB/Z. He is very good with over the top sillyness (as seen in his use as Major Armstrong in FMA), and brooding people (Roy in Solty Rei, Zoro in One Peice).

The problem is DB/Z is a sort of mix of the two and he doesn't mix the two well. Of course, had he used the voice he used for Roy on Vegeta, instead of sounding constipated, that may have worked.

In all, his work in DB/Z as it stands didn't work well, but he is actually a pretty good voice actor.

Let me put it this way, this is like saying Michael Jordan sucks as a sportsman because he can't play *insert sport here that isnt basketball*. It's simply a matter of expertese.

[Saago]

Toei does not decide who the characters are. Based on what Toei has done in the movies, Kuririn's character IS a babbling character that deserves mocking just like FUNi seems to do. You can't just pick and choose what aspects of Toei's creative license with characters goes. It's either all fact or all opinion.

And I don't like some of the things they do with Krilin in the movies. So what? They're still Toei's movies, and like them or not no dubbing company has the right to change them. If I don't like the original version of a movie, I don't watch the movie. If I think the way they portrayed Krilin is awful, I complain about it, but it's not Funimation's work to fix those things (especially when most of the times there's nothing to fix in the first place).

How am I being arrogant here? I've never said you shouldn't like the dub or anything. All I'm doing is stating a fact: the English dub is a bastardized version of Toei's anime. Objectively, as a translation/dub, it's intolerable and indefensible: it completely and deliberately ignores the original. And I guess I don't need to tell you that fidelity is what translating/dubbing is all about.

You like it? Well, no problem. Like it all you want, of course. But that doesn't change the fact that the English version of the series is a perfect example of how not to translate. Yes, translating/dubbing is all about the original (even if you don't like the original), it's the first thing they teach translators. That's not subjective, that's not opinion. Try to search a definition of what a translation (yes, it has an objective definition), what a translator is supposed to do and what characterizes a good translation. Good luck if you want to find something remotely close to what they did with Dragon Ball in English.

I say it once again so you don't misinterpret me: I'm not saying you shouldn't like it, I'm not saying you can't like it (obviously, that's not up to me). I'm saying it's a terrible and disrespectful dub. Why? If I'm translating "Je m'apelle Jean-Claude" to English and I write "I love bananas, they are my favourite fruit" that translation is objectively, unquestionably bad. Even if someone likes the second phrase better.

And by the way, I'm not the one who said that English Dragon Ball is the way it is because they thought kids were stupid. Gen Fukunaga was the one who euphemistically said that.

To help pull this back on topic too, I'll say that I also think that Sabat isn't a bad actor, but even the best actors in the world can't do a good job if they are casted to do unappropriate characters, and especially if the director gives them wrong instructions. With Vegeta, it's like they didn't know how the original actor sounded and acted and they actually didn't care one bit. The result is extremely poor. With Zoro, for example, it looks like (at least from what I've heard) not only they knew how the original actor sounded, but they also wanted Sabat to act in a similar way. The result is a much more accurate, respectful and natural dub.

So I would say that Sabat's work in Dragon Ball is awful, but it's not fair to judge him just because of Dragon Ball since he's proved he can do way better.

[Raki]

I'm surprised we've gone through this whole discussion and not one person poked fun at Krillin's line about Trunks still being alive and that he's moving just as he coughs up blood.

I found that to be silly as well. Funi giving the notion that Trunks was still alive after been hit like that.