Dragon Ball: Evolution- Speculation and Discussion

[SSJ2bardock]

I hate to say it but that's why the idea of "Logic" exists in a debate. When you have a set standard to check arguments by, the idea is that eventually a flaw will be found, and the argument will not be consistantly cyclical.

So then maybe try giving someone else's logic a try possibly? You haven't one time admitted that you could even possibly be wrong about something in these arguments that you start. It's like nothing is right unless it came from you.

[Rena Rune]

I hate to say it but that's why the idea of "Logic" exists in a debate. When you have a set standard to check arguments by, the idea is that eventually a flaw will be found, and the argument will not be consistantly cyclical.

So then maybe try giving someone else's logic a try possibly? You haven't one time admitted that you could even possibly be wrong about something in these arguments that you start. It's like nothing is right unless it came from you.

You misunderstand what logic is. I did not invent logic. This is the problem. You are using logic interchangably with opinion. Logic should NEVER be used interchangable with opinion.

If you don't know what logic even is, how can you hope to be a good debater? Seriously.

I see this all the time. Oh but that's YOUR logic!!! It really isn't. It's just as absurd as saying something is MY maths, MY physics. Just because the rules apply to more vague concepts, does not mean they do not exist.

Logic is not an opinion. The problem is, to someone who has never even heard of logic, this is just an opinion being forced on you, much like trying to teach physics to people from 600AD. I am not being insulting. I am not forcing an opinion. It is the correct form for a debate, to follow some basic logical ideas. To point out holes in someone's argument, you identify the logical fallacies. In this argument, there is no real "evidence"(apart from psychology, groupthink, consumerist trends etc. obviously), only logical constructs.

They really need to teach critical thinking in schools. I am afraid there is simply a very important field of philosophy you've missed out on completely. I won't hold it against you if you check it out now.

Here's a good section on fallacies:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/

From studying fallacies, you also get an idea of how to logically construct an argument. Basically, knowing everything you can't do, you get an idea of what you can do.

[Chrono Trigger]

Seriously though this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand or Dragon Ball in general. I don't even think some of you know what it is you're arguing about anymore. Nobody is trying to settle anything! You're just quoting each other and basically saying "No YOU!" repeatedly. Nobody is trying calm down or settle of the matter at all.

[Rena Rune]

Seriously though this has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand or Dragon Ball in general. I don't even think some of you know what it is you're arguing about anymore. Nobody is trying to settle anything! You're just quoting each other and basically saying "No YOU!" repeatedly. Nobody is trying calm down or settle of the matter at all.

It sort of has everything to do with every argument ever, Dragonball related or no. If you don't want to improve the quality of discussion on this forum, that's up to you, but personally I'm all for it.

[SSJ2bardock]

If you don't know what logic even is, how can you hope to be a good debater? Seriously.

You keep saying this, but who ever said we wanted to join a debate team? We just want to talk about Dragonball.

I am not being insulting.

I beg to differ, the reason this whole argument even started was because you were insulting people.

I am not forcing an opinion.

You're right, you're not forcing it.... you're jamming it down our throats.

They really need to teach critical thinking in schools.

And by insinuating that I'm stupid in this comment you're "not being insulting" how exactly?

At this point I've pretty much had about enough of you as I can stand for one day so I'm really going to stop "debating" with you now.

Check out this website in your free time though. Just taking a stab in the dark, but I think you might like it there.




Also, what Chrono Trigger said is correct.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and if you're going to continue your crusade against this forum and its members, I expect that you will treat your supposed inferiors with the same respect that I'm demanding they treat you with in return. This cannot continue.

I think people missed this.

Guys. Rena is being loudly and rudely crude, insulting, and has tossed around stupid insults all over the place.

But I'd like to point to the part in bold above. I'd also like to point at the part at the front. Cheap shots and jokes at this person's expense are not helping.

Treat others with respect, I don't care if they doesn't do the same back.

[SSJ2bardock]

Two wrongs don't make a right, and if you're going to continue your crusade against this forum and its members, I expect that you will treat your supposed inferiors with the same respect that I'm demanding they treat you with in return. This cannot continue.

I think people missed this.

Guys. Rena is being loudly and rudely crude, insulting, and has tossed around stupid insults all over the place.

But I'd like to point to the part in bold above. I'd also like to point at the part at the front. Cheap shots and jokes at this person's expense is not helping.

Treat others with respect, I don't care if they don't do the same back.

You're right about that, myself and others have been in the wrong in that area. I'll do my part to not feed flame bait in the future.

[Chrono Trigger]

You keep saying this, but who ever said we wanted to join a debate team? We just want to talk about Dragonball.

Pretty much....

Cheap shots and jokes at this person's expense is not helping.

Treat others with respect, I don't care if they doesn't do the same back.

...and pretty much. The fastest way to drop something is to show some respect and just let it go. You was right, He was right, She was right and whatever else doesn't matter. Nobody cares. Just let it go and move on. At the end of the day we are all pretty much fans of the same thing and that is what we are here to talk about. Dragon Ball.

[VegettoEX]

Hey, Rena:

While I take extreme issue with your avoidance tactic of placing the blame on others time and time again with no personal accountability (yet demanding it from everyone else), I do absolutely agree that if others are breaking rules, they should be dealt with in a similar manner. I do once again repeat that I haven't had to publicly deal with some of this material on the same level of yourself, so while you may not see it, that doesn't mean it's not happening. It's unfortunately come to that now, and I would love to see us both step up and take accountability for that (myself for allowing it, and you for initiating and instigating it).

Your attitude is completely unacceptable, and spins around on itself at your every whim. Previously you've asked that I directly respond to posts that you've made. Now you've stated that it's ridiculous how I'm paying personal attention to you.

How do you acceptably, fairly, and consistently respond to and deal with this? Your own constant claims for logic are unusable here. As an administrator and a regular forum poster, you make it literally impossible for me to respond to justly.

You have wonderful ideas, fantastic discussion points, and seemingly a genuine love to get involved with a/the community. You're making it impossible for us, though. I've told you time and time and time again how it is completely unacceptable for you to rant with hate and profanity the way you do, and just because someone's snarky to you in response does not somehow give you a new right.

I will not tolerate a single additional post from you with anything from or even remotely similar to what has been collected before, and you continue to ignore. I will also not tolerate any additional sarcasm or rudeness tossed your way (PMs have already been sent, and I greatly appreciate some of the apologies pouring in via this thread). I will, however, continue to enjoy the further discussions everyone can have together.

I'm really glad you're all here, so as I like to say (and as silly and stupid as it sounds), let's just keep it all super-shonen. The original topic has been lost, so unless we can pull it back over onto that, I suppose we can let the thread go by the wayside and have our own personal, private conversations.

[Rena Rune]

You are still calling me out in public, and only mention the actions of others a side comment. You are not demoaning Jappo's actions, or Bardock's actions, merely saying you will "not tolerate" disrespect aimed at me, and that you have not had to deal with anything on this scale. Allow me to correct you; you have not had to deal with anyone opposing you on this scale. I see much deeper problems in this board. This is likely because I am considerably more of a forum veteran than most people here, have had bad luck with forums, and have less patience for people like you.

You are using force to resolve a situation instead of compromising, debating maturely and reaching a viable solution.

This is not the way to get me or anyone sane to become a contributing member of your community.

This is bullying, plain and simple, and those sending you the PMs are advocating it. Using aggressive language is NOT on the same level as the accusations the like of SSJBardock has made, and some of the comments in this thread are flat out trolling.

It is very simple to moderate fairly and deal with others' comments as well as mine. You refuse to do this. There is no reason for me to respect you as an admin, or show respect in my language. Simply put a good admin, a good moderator, does NOT take sides to this degree, ever. If you wish to discuss this maturely, publically, I am all for it, but you have not yet shown this ability, and seem to wish to end this debate by force instead of reason, settings a poor precedent.

If you have a smidgeon of reason, you will do the right thing and make similar posts directed at Jappo, Bardock and the others. I do not see this happening.

No good admin, ever, would entirely side against one person in this argument when others are being abusive. No good admin would close a thread by force that can be resolved simply by being fair and balanced.

The attitudes Jappo and SSJ2Bardock are displaying are what are unacceptable. You disagree, but instead of engaging in a mature debate to resolve who is in the wrong, you force your opinion as a moderation action. By demonising me and ignoring they're actions, you are saying they're entirely acceptable.

There seems no point in further dealing with someone who seemingly believes himself to be completely infallible and above reason. If you wish to debate things fairly and take fair moderation action against EVERYONE equally, then I am interested in being a contributing member. There is no reason this cannot be done, you are the admin, you can keep a discussion on track surely. It is unfair to force me into this false dichotomy. As far as I see it, you are sticking up for your buddies, your clique, rather than applying things fairly across the board.

Man, look at your posts. It's like nobody else other than me posted in the thread, and even at that, you're still not reading any of my posts; no information actually from my posts apart from some pick and choose points end up in your posts. It's the most bizarre thing I've seen in ages and I mean that. I guarantee your reply to this is going to be the same, the same as in the Tenshinhan argument, the same as the Christmas blues argument. You just skim over my posts, pick out the words you don't like, and make a judgement. I'm honestly hoping it isn't, you have no idea how much.

I am not an unreasonable person. But, I am not very good at dealing with unreasonable people. If you want to take this to website discussion or IRC then I wil. if you want to drop it, then that's it, you're calling yourself infallible and there is no solution to be found. This sounds insulting, but it's true. I am interested in compromise and a good solution for everyone, but the problem is people are unable to see the way they've always done things may not be the way to prepare for future members, or the members that don't speak up like I do. It's not what's best for the majority, it's what's RIGHT, because the majority often has cares that are of less weight, per capita, than the minority.

A forum like this, whether your private property or not, if run by a fair human being, should be fair to everyone. And being a good admin, unfortunately, means to try and not take sides in an argument like this. I really want a good solution for this, but it's unfair for the minority(me, Tweaker and whoever else) to always have to bend over for the majority.

[Olivier Hague]

Maybe it's because you are the only one acting childish, and throwing personal, unwarranted attacks at people.

You, Oliver Hague and Daburcor should take your overly negative opinions and make a topic where all you do is complain about how awful and evil the movie is! I have never seen such ridiculous over-reaction in my life, outside of religious fundamentalists and hardcore gang members.

Sorry, was that supposed to be flattering?

[fogdark]

This really isn't getting anywhere . Its obvious the arguments will continue, and no one is going to yield, so I think it'll be better to close this thread. The topic has been long forgotten so there's no longer a reason to keep it open, because i don't know about you guys, but i just started reading all of this a few minutes ago, and I already have a headache.

[SSJ2bardock]

Using aggressive language is NOT on the same level as the accusations the like of SSJ2bardock has made, and some of the comments in this thread are flat out trolling.

What exactly did I say that was so terrible? Was it one of these?

- cock
- prick
- dum(b)fuck
- stupid fuck
- stupidest fucks
- sociopath
- autistic
- kidnapper
- idiot
- childish
- absurd
- not intelligent
- mental patients
- incapable of understanding
- immature
- morally defunct
- elitist
- not reasonable human beings
- weeaboo
- corrupt
- drones
- authoritarians
- stupid
- obnoxious
- have no respect
- rulemongerers
- goddamn moron
- USELESS FUCKING SHITHEAD

No seriously, I really don't see what I've said that was so catastrophic, and judging by the fact that I didn't receive a PM, Mike doesn't either.

[Onikage725]

Rena, you're calling Mike out as a moderator. I have to say, it seems to me like he's trying to discuss with you without having to resort to moderation. Just an observation. We've seen plenty a thread (on this very topic) locked for turning into ugly arguments.

[Bussani]

This is bullying, plain and simple, and those sending you the PMs are advocating it. Using aggressive language is NOT on the same level as the accusations the like of SSJBardock has made, and some of the comments in this thread are flat out trolling.

You don't seem to realize that your comments, while not necessarily swearing, have been the most condescending and high-and-mighty ones so far, which is what Mike has been trying to point out to you.

Before you ask me to 'back up' this claim, I'll point out what I can remember from memory. I'm sorry if these aren't accurately worded.

"If that's your opinion then you're a moron."
"You shouldn't be in this thread."
"Too many people are entertained by inferior stuff and are wrong/stupid for liking it." -- See this one? Like I said, it might not be worded right, but this is what I (and apparently others) interpreted by what you said. You're trying to use logic to shoot down people's opinions, and as Mike rightly pointed out, opinions about what someone likes don't have to be logical. You call someone's argument that if people like something then they like it stupid because they're not looking at it deeply enough and questioning if their opinion is wrong. Someone's opinion that they like something can not be wrong. If they like it, they like it. You can't use logic to prove to them that they don't like it or that they're stupid for liking it.

[Anonymous Friend]

So, is there any new news or is this the topic about everyone picking on everyone?

Does someone have to always explain in detail how they feel about a specific subject? No. Maybe if we were having a serious debate, but not when having what should be a friendly discussion about a Japanese animated series.

There's been quite a few times when JAPPO is delivering his info and someone calls him out on the way he's delivering it. I, myself, don't see it. But I won't deny that someone may be able to pick up on some thing that I could have missed. But when it comes to Rena Rune's posts, I can't help but see the what all the fuss is able.

Rena Rune seems to be dumbfounded by all of the negative responses they seem to get, but that's what happens when you fill you posts with profanity, agression, and animosity, and target people with rude and spiteful words. And even if you don't see anything wrong with what your doing, others do. And this matters, especially when your trying to have a discusion with them.

No one has to be nice and curtious to anyone else. But when you are in someone else's you do have to abide by their rules.

[Bussani]

So, is there any new news or is this the topic about everyone picking on everyone?

Uh, the topic title has changed but I think originally this was the thread about a review of the movie. But it turned out to be fake, so there you go.

Also, your icon is from the same comic as mine. Neat.

[Pitzu]

In most forums, Rena would have been banned after insulting Mike.

Man, Mike, you sure are tolerant.

[Big Momma]

So, wait....



...Rena Rune is a GIRL?!

[Bussani]

So, wait....



...Rena Rune is a GIRL?!

This made me laugh just because of the irony of it being Big Momma to say it.