What About Raditzu, ToeI? And...Low-class fighter my foot!

[SonGohan-san]

The Bardock story was great, save for two things.

One, they never acknowledge Raditzu's existence. I mean, give me a break! In all those flashforwards Bardock had, they didn't even show Goku tangling with his brother. Plus, if you remember in one of the earlier episodes of Dragon Ball Z, they show a still frame shot of a young Raditzu about to take off in his space pod (with, presumely a baby Goku right next to his). It would have been extremely cool to have seen Bardock AT LEAST have a brief word with him over his scouter like Vegita did with Nappa at the closing part. Like, Bardock could have said something resembling, "Kakarotto is the weakest of the weak. He will never amount to your level, Raditzu". Then the scene would be shown of a teen Raditzu with a smug grin on his face. Something like that would have been real cool to me. Plus, they could of spoke of how he would be sent to the planet earth because he is so weak, which would have explained how Raditzu even knew he was there in the first place. As far as I know, we don't actually know how Raditzu knew that Goku was on earth. Also, you'd think at the part where Bardock confronts Furiza and says something like, "This is for Kakarotto," that he'd at least include his other son in there, too.

Next thing: Bardock's powerlevel. No matter what anybody says I'll never be convinced his powerlevel is near 10,000. That would be stronger than King Vegita's (and maybe Prince Vegita's at that time, who was said to be the strongest living Saiyan) and would dwarf an elite warrior's like Nappa, who was only around 4,000. In reality, if he was low level warrior like the movie repeatedly says he is, he should have been more like 1,000. Plus, that would make his last stand against Furiza even more incredible. When the doctor says his PL is near "should be near 10,000,", I just take it fuguratively, like he means, "hey, the way this guy comes back half-dead from every mission, you'd think his power would be near 10,000 by now." That's my own personal way around that problem.

But damn, Toei wasn't a company that did its homework, that's for sure. Or just forgetful, like Toriyama.

[omae no kaasan]

Toriyama didn't seem to give a shit so I don't know why anyone else should.

[SonGohan-san]

What kind of answer is that? Aside from Toriyama not working on the Bardock movie, I consider myself a fan that's why I care and that's why I'm on this message board in the first place. I find this type of discussion much more fun than reading how "awesome" SS3 is or how "gay" Mr. Satan is, etc. What's the point of a message board, if all anyone says is, "why does it matter?"

[PsyLiam]

With regards to Raditz, it's fairly obvious that Toriyama had one of his regular brain haemorages, and completely forgot about him. I'd say that TOEI did too, except that they stuck him in a filler flashback thingie, so I'm not sure.

[Zackarotto]

If you don't care, don't post.

Anyway, I totally agree that Raditz should have been there. How old would he have been, anyway? Well, I suppose he would have been already sent off to his first planet... That was always my guess (still, it would have been cooler if he was there).

As for Bardocks power level, it could be right. I would rather believe he wasn't a low class fighter than believe he couldn't beat Nappa. When he faught Freeza's guards, there was such a huge number of them... As far as I know, those are low class fighters.

[SonGohan-san]

Well, the thing that puzzles me about the omission of young Raditzu was they already had a design to work with. In that still-frame shot during the flashback with Raditzu's narration in the second or third episode he looked to be around 13-14, so I'm guessing he was about 8-10 years older than Prince Vegita.

Secondly, about Bardock. I have a hard time believing he could beat Nappa since Nappa was "commander of the Saiyan army." At least, according to the dub. I'm not sure how accurate that translation was. But more importantly, he is of the elite-class. It is said repeatedly that Bardock is a low level fighter. When he comments on Goku, he even says, "Who would care about the son of a low-level warrior." They just really seem to hammer that point home that he's a low level fighter. Then, to make him not seem less pathetic or even cool, Toei gives him an insanely high fighting level (for a Saiyan at that time). It's like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

[Zackarotto]

Well, the thing that puzzles me about the omission of young Raditzu was they already had a design to work with. In that still-frame shot during the flashback with Raditzu's narration he looked to be around 13-14, so I'm guessing he was about 8-10 years older than Prince Vegita.

They already had a design to work with? I'd like to see a picture of that...

Then, to make him not seem less pathetic or even cool, Toei gives him an insanely high fighting level (for a Saiyan at that time).

Yeah, I thought Bardock was cool. But that's just because I'm a sucker for cross-scars. Where was this power level mentioned, anyway?

[VegettoEX]

Toriyama didn't seem to give a shit so I don't know why anyone else should.

I think you're a bit too bitter after translating the Toriyama / Oda interview

[SonGohan-san]

When he is first coming out of the rejuvenation tank, a doctor/scientist guy says something like, "that Bardock sure can take a great deal of punishment." and the another doctor guy says, "yeah, his power level must be near 10,000 by now." Its a fansub, but it was done by Baldric or whatever, so I know its close. I can tell which fansubs are totally off after watching as many as I have. Plus, its listed in one of those official books that his PL is approx. 10,000. I got that off of Greg Werner's site and he even points out the blunderous nature in his PL being that high. But in the anime when the doctor guy says that, I just "pretend" he's speaking figuratively, as in his PL "should" be that high seeing how he always not comes back so injured, not that it actually is.

As far as the picture, watch the second or third episode of Dragon Ball Z when Raditzu is giving Goku the "rundown" on the sayians. It shows a teenage Saiyan who looks like Raditzu (even wearing same the armor) in one shot. One could it argue its not actually him, but its so close, and the coincidence of seeing him next to a baby (which I'd think was Goku) is highly suggestive. He looked just like Raditzu, and even if it wasn't Raditzu, I couldn't see a younger version of him looking too much different. Anyways...

[omae no kaasan]

What kind of answer is that? Aside from Toriyama not working on the Bardock movie, I consider myself a fan that's why I care and that's why I'm on this message board in the first place. I find this type of discussion much more fun than reading how "awesome" SS3 is or how "gay" Mr. Satan is, etc. What's the point of a message board, if all anyone says is, "why does it matter?"

What kind of an answer is it? If Toriyama enjoyed the Toei programming and watched it regularly, as he did, and didn't write a thesis on why he hates Toei for destroying his work, then I think there's no problem with it.

If you want an answer, it's so obvious that I don't think it really needs stating.

It's a plot hole. Hooray. And Toriyama didn't care that they made plenty of them so I'm really not keen on anyone doing so since they weren't sitting at a table with pens and ink drawing panels for a decade, nor were they working their asses off to bring an animated story to fans to the best of their ability at a pace that mocks anything in the US and under far less desireable conditions.

I accept Toriyama's ignorance of the US mis-handling of his work for language barrier purposes. That and I'm unsure if he would even complain if he knew what happened in this day and age so my bitching really has no ground either.

Translating the Oda/Toriyama interview and reading the new interview included in the Son Gokou animation guide has really made me see a new Toriyama and made me realize that whining about simple plots holes and series mistakes is not a big deal...at all. Consider that producers and scenario writers are also juggling several other series around in their heads. Their jobs are harder than the artists themselves in that they must attempt not only to keep all the details of just one story in their head, but several. I can certainly forgive them for allowing paint mistakes or rearranging the events somewhat. It's not like it doesn't continue to happen today. One Piece has been censored DRAMATICALLY compared to any hole or 8th Cell Jr. So what. Read the manga. The animation was made to be enjoyed mainly by children who aren't going to worry about such stuff in the first place.

Just enjoy the story while you can. That's what Toriyama did.

[Zackarotto]

I know you've got some points there... maybe it's why Toriyama converted from watching lots of anime when he was really young to becoming more interested in manga. Maybe. But we do enjoy discussing these things. Who knows, sometimes we uncover a possible explanation to back out of a plothole, that was never officially explained. It can be a very rewarding experience, you know.

[SonGohan-san]

Well you're just loads of fun to talk to! Look, you're using a moot point to answer a "what if" fanboy type question.

I'm not as ignorant as you may think I am just because I don't own the mangas. You may think you're some expert because you translate his interviews, but its not like I haven't read any of them and its not like any of that matters when we are speaking in terms of a FICTIONAL universe. Jesus. You haven't told me one piece of information that I didn't already know. But as fans, this type of discussion is one source which some derive pleasure and fun out of the series, by picking it apart and critiqing it. You don't have to be "hush hush" about plotholes to enjoy the series. In fact, I love discussing the plotholes. It doesn't make the series less enjoyable to me. For one thing, plotholes allow a fan to use his/her own imagination to piece the story together and make things "work" if you want to look at it optimistically.

And frankly, I think Akira Toriyama is a great guy from what I've read about him. But just because he doesn't care about "X" doesn't mean I can't. This is a case where I don't care if he has an opinion. I'd like him to have one, but if he doesn't, fine. It's jsut a scenario where my love of the series outdoes my concern for his opinion and doesn't hinge on every word the creator says about it.

[Jerseymilk]

I really have to agree with omae no kasaan on this one guys. You're making it too hard for yourself. That random shot that looks like a teenage Raditz is just filler. Remember, Toei had no idea what the history of the Saiyajins was at that point, hence the statements about a meteor, then a deity destroying their planet. The images during that story were just thrown in there, don't try to make so much sense of them. Maybe it was Raditz and maybe it wasn't, but Toei's designs have a habit of looking similar. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people in crowds that look like Yamucha or different aliens that have a really similar design to one another. Heck, I also remember in those same flashbacks seeing a female Saiyajin with curly blond hair like Lunch, but later on during the Bardock Special, you don't see any blond Saiyajins, like then Toriyama or Toei decided that all Saiyajins would be characteristically fairly dark. I just accept the discrepencies and enjoy DB the way it is.

[omae no kaasan]

Jesus.

Yes?

Well you're just loads of fun to talk to!

Of course I am.

I'm not as ignorant as you may think I am just because I don't own the mangas.

I did not know you do not own them. And frankly, I do not care if you do or not. I do not recall mentioning that.

You don't have to be "hush hush" about plotholes to enjoy the series.

Who is being hush hush? They're there. There are lots of them. Mankind fucked up. I can move on with my life rather than spend countless pages discussing that which can be explained by, "Oh yeah Takahashi was really into orange and green ink so we thought it would look cool." Instead of inventing rumors like "Well you see, they're in space so it made their suits look different." An extreme example perhaps I am bringing it up randomly but regardless the same idea applies.

You haven't told me one piece of information that I didn't already know.

Well since I just told you the answer. And you already knew the answer. Then why question it? I didn't want to go into it hence my cynic quip but then you wanted more, so I gave you the semi-long version. Now you don't want to know? I am awful confused.

But as fans, this type of discussion is one source which some derive pleasure and fun out of the series, by picking it apart and critiqing it.

Toei screwed up and dug themselves into a deeper hole than they were already in. I don't see how anyone can elaborate that unless they ask Toei, "Excuse me, why did Takashi screw up the scenario and totally neglect to do X on X date." Otherwise it's just a crucible for rumors.

For one thing, plotholes allow a fan to use his/her own imagination to piece the story together and make things "work" if you want to look at it optimistically.

Isn't that called creating fan-fiction? I have no problem with that, but fiction is fiction.

But just because he doesn't care about "X" doesn't mean I can't. This is a case where I don't care if he has an opinion. I'd like him to have one, but if he doesn't, fine. It's jsut a scenario where my love of the series outdoes my concern for his opinion and doesn't hinge on every word the creator says about it.

Good. Nor should you. The series was created for you after all. But in certain cases, you should realize that the answer is not "Because you see, Raditz was on a super-secret mission to a certain planet", and merely someone didn't do their homework well enough, or since they created an anime plot hole, they had to work with the show to keep the story continuous.

My favorite example of that is when Piccolo blew up Gokou's pod. That is freaking great. I would have loved to have been in the meeting that day. "Well, we fucked up royally this time." And a simple, "When I found your spaceship, it was all in parts." fixes everything even though Piccolo obviously blasted it with a Makkankousappou which since it was destroyed from the inside should technically have reduced it to nothingness.

Toei screwed up. They have and they will. If you want to create fan-fiction, go for it, but be sure not to use it in any serious discussion.

I really have to agree with omae no kasaan on this one guys.

I love this handle so much.

[VegettoEX]

whining about simple plots holes and series mistakes is not a big deal...at all.

You're right. It really doesn't mean or accomplish anything, in the long run.

But for those who have absolutely no desire to whine about the American production of the show anymore, going back to the original and finding... I wouldn't say "faults"... more along the lines of "fun nitpicks"... it's something that we can get attached to, and allow us to show our love for the show/manga in a different way, almost allowing us to actually interact with it.

As long as it's all in healthy, normal, and friendly conversational ways... I say go for it!

And, yeah, Greg, c'mon... be nice.. or.. I'LL BAN J00~~!!!111shiftone!

[SonGohan-san]

I'm not trying to sound like a jerk, but you guys are misinterpreting me here. Of course I could just throw my hands in the air and say this and that "Toriyama this..." "Toei...that". But honestly, I don't think that's fun and I don't see why people get so annoyed at me for wanting to discuss these things. I know I'm looking for a certain depth that's not necessarily there, but who the hell cares? I'm a fan. What's wrong with thinking about things instead of just digesting everything you see and moving on? And furthermore, I wasn't necessarily complaining or even in distress. I just wanted to make conversation. No, I don't loose sleep over any of this, but what's wrong with discussing this type of thing on a FAN forum of all places?

I see these things being brought up all over the place, but if it's hard to answer, some of you just get annoyed and blame Toriyama. Leave the guy out of it I say unless it is somewhat relevant. Don't just use it has a buzzkill to something of interest. It may be trivial to some people, but to others its good clean fun.

As far as Raditzu goes, yes, I know that scene was filler. Again, I know more than what people are giving me credit for, here. But then why not just say the whole Bardock movie was filler. "Sure, we do" you say? Well, then obviously, this question was not for you, and you don't have worry about answering to crazy ole me, here, do you? And comparing a random Saiyan character with blonde hair to the omission of Goku's brother isn't too fair. Of course there's inconsistencies in animation, but the ones that sorta matter to the plot, to me, are FUN to talk about. The blondness doesnt' really entail much of a plot-like discussion.

[omae no kaasan]

I'm being nice I've found that it doesn't get you anywhere being nasty. I just probably seem nasty when I change into Cynical Man. I have no problem with any discussion. My entire interest in this actually comes from the thread title. I'm really not keen on people harping on Toei. Sure, acknowledge the mistakes. After all, if you find them, it means you're a helluva fan. But there's no reason to badmouth Toei for it.

[SonGohan-san]

I guess you could call it fanfiction, but we're just speculating on things that could be feasible, not stating anything as fact.
And, omae no kaasan, why even come on a discussion board if you all you want to do is use that "Toriyama didn't care" bit?
I came to this board because everyone here seemed willing to use their heads a bit and think outside the box so to speak w/o just talking about their favorite character...because, gosh, that's just so fun to hear 50 some odd obscure people talk about.

And stop being so condescending! I'll say it again. I dont' lose any sleep over this stuff, but when I come on a DISCUSSION board, I think these types of things are fun ponder.

[VegettoEX]

I'm tellin' ya, it's because Oda's interview with Toriyama totally destroyed our perfect world of a perfect Toriyama . He's all disillusioned, now, crawling around the streets of Japan praying to Toriyama that it's not true...

[SonGohan-san]

By the way, I know I'm posting a lot, here, but I really don't harp on Toei. I for one, enjoy all of their fillers because its more DB for me to look at and, incidentally, think about. I just made the title what it was so people wouldn't say something like, "Well, Toei made the movie. The movie wasn't in the manga, so don't blame Toriyama." I just wanted people to understand that I was aware of what Toei creates and what Toriyama creates on his own. Well, for the most part I know. That's all.