Can Androids 17 and 18..

[Bussani]

In other words, simply doubling their base power would make their Super Saiyajin form 100 times stronger than their base form was before the double. It's not necessary at all for their base forms to ever surpass a standard SSJ, even making their base forms 10 times stronger would result in a ridiculous power boost to SSJ, which at that point is their standard.

[Xyex]

In other words, simply doubling their base power would make their Super Saiyajin form 100 times stronger than their base form was before the double. It's not necessary at all for their base forms to ever surpass a standard SSJ, even making their base forms 10 times stronger would result in a ridiculous power boost to SSJ, which at that point is their standard.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, think about it. If Goku's base on Namek was 2 million his SSJ would be 100 million. If his base at the Cell Games was 6 million, and having mastered SSJ doubles its power output, his SSJ level there would then be 600 million. That's a pretty massive change. If Goku's base were equal to Freeza's max (95 million, in point) and he were to still be a 'normal' SSJ, his power would be 4.75 billion. 9.5 billion with it mastered. And that's not even getting into what SSJ2/3 would do.

There's really just no reason to pump base levels that high. Nothing in the series indicates it at all and there's just no need for it. SSJ and its levels yield more than enough power on their own without bloating the bases.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Not when the abnormally-large near-death boosts that allowed them to 'cheat' their way up to the LOW millions during the Freeza arc no longer exist, or went back to 'normal' rates so low that they practically shouldn't bother existing.

Ever heard of new training methods? Also, it's a work of fiction. Nothing's impossible. Toriyama could bullshit any excuse he wanted to make the characters stronger.

No they're not. No base Saiya-jin is ever shown to be stronger than Freeza.

Err... how does one show that, exactly? I could point out the scene where Bobbidi specifically says that Piccolo and Kuririn were trash compared to the base Saiyans, but you seem to find a way to dance around that one ("Piccolo was just suppressing his power less," despite the fact that Kaioshin told them all to completely extinguish their ki). I could point out the scene where base Goku and Tenshinhan dodge #20's eye-beam, but you'd probably say that #20 was holding back. Or what about when Goku punched Gero in the face? Or when Gohan knocked him off of Piccolo? Or when base Trunks managed to make first form Cell fly with a kiai? Really, there is a mountain of evidence showing that the base Saiyans (and possibly the humans) surpassed Freeza by the android arc, but you usually just fanwank it away!

Pui Pui thought 10x gravity would be a help and 18 held back on "Mighty Mask" thinking it was a stronger than normal human.

I'd like to see where it's made clear that beings from a planet with 10x the Earth's gravity can't be stronger than Freeza. As for him thinking that his planet would give him the advantage, don't Dragon Ball villains always become delusional when they're losing? Plus, he was under the impression that Vegeta hadn't experienced anything other than Earth's gravity. Why wouldn't he think that Vegeta would be slowed down in ten times the Earth's gravity?

There's also the fact that Kaioshin is probably weaker than Pui Pui. Otherwise, why wouldn't he just kill Pui Pui with a single attack (like he claimed to be able to do to Freeza) instead of letting Vegeta get his energy stolen? The same goes for Yakon, who Kaioshin suggested ganging up against (meaning he was most definitely weaker than Yakon).

As for Mighty Mask, I never meant to imply that base Goten and Trunks were stronger than Freeza.

Logic and what we see in the series.

In other words, bias again?

EDIT:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, think about it. If Goku's base on Namek was 2 million his SSJ would be 100 million. If his base at the Cell Games was 6 million, and having mastered SSJ doubles its power output, his SSJ level there would then be 600 million. That's a pretty massive change. If Goku's base were equal to Freeza's max (95 million, in point) and he were to still be a 'normal' SSJ, his power would be 4.75 billion. 9.5 billion with it mastered. And that's not even getting into what SSJ2/3 would do.

There's really just no reason to pump base levels that high. Nothing in the series indicates it at all and there's just no need for it. SSJ and its levels yield more than enough power on their own without bloating the bases.

My question to you is, what's wrong with a power of 9.5 billion, aside from "I don't like the levels that high"? Get power levels out of your head, it's pointless to think about them after the Freeza arc.

[ImmortalSandwich]

This power level debate is completely redundant. Power levels are rarely ever consistent, no matter where you get the numbers from. The highest power levels I can remember ever being given are both Frieza's. His base form was "500,000" and his second form was "over one million". I remember reading that his final form was like 5,000,000, which logically makes sense, as opposed to 95 million.

Regardless, like I said, it's a stupid debate. You can't use logic here, because Toriyama himself, the CREATOR of the series, completely ditched the idea of power levels towards the end of the Frieza arc.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I remember reading that his final form was like 5,000,000, which logically makes sense, as opposed to 95 million.

Naw, because Goku was able to fight toe-to-toe with final form Freeza, who had a power much higher than 1,000,000. Logically, if half of Freeza's power is more than what Goku could put out with his Kaio-Ken x20 (at least a power of 20,000,000), his highest power rating should be over 40,000,000.

Regarding your post as a whole, though, I completely agree. Trying to fit power levels into the later arcs is going to be impossible, simply because Toriyama wasn't writing the series with those numbers in mind.

[Bussani]

I agree that trying to come up with power levels later in the series is a bad idea. But using arbitrary numbers as reference points when talking about SSJ power boosts can help to put things in some perspective.

Edit: Personally I'm more interested in the mechanics of the transformations -- how much they're supposed to multiply your power, whether that multiplier ever changes by making the form more efficient -- than I am with power levels themselves.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Personally I'm more interested in the mechanics of the transformations -- how much they're supposed to multiply your power, whether that multiplier ever changes by making the form more efficient -- than I am with power levels themselves.

Maybe you could begin a “Super Saiyan Mechanics” thread. I would be interested in that as well.

[Bussani]

...Personally I'm more interested in the mechanics of the transformations -- how much they're supposed to multiply your power, whether that multiplier ever changes by making the form more efficient -- than I am with power levels themselves.

Maybe you could begin a “Super Saiyan Mechanics” thread. I would be interested in that as well.

I know you would. But we've been over it in various threads before. The main thing I'm still unsure about is whether Full Power Super Saiyajin increases the boost from x50 to something else. I know we've been all over it before, but I think it's a possibility that just by making the form more efficient and less wasteful you'd be able to make the improvement greater than x50 (like what Xyex was saying).

[Yasai-R-Mighty]

I'd say it's unlikely 17 and 18 could get stronger through training. Like it has been mentioned before if they attempted to do any sort of training exercises their cybernetic implants would take on the work for them. If they tried to over exert their cybernetic implants, they'd probably collapse because their muscles certainly wouldn't be able to take the stresses, their super-saiyan-surpassing synthetic parts couldn't without ever having trained. It's ironic their infinite reactors is the very thing, which keeps their strengths stagnant, and as a concupiscence very much definite.

Now it would be interesting if they were able to shut them on and off at will, in such away that their bodies can train fully. While ordinarily normal humans (as in not Uub) can't ever hope to come close to saiyan strength, however, can you imagine immortal humans? It seems though that their cybernetic and biological components are integrated in such away, that they're completely interdependent so... probably not even Dr. Briefs can make this possible. Plus I doubt they'd care to go through such trouble, the androids seem like slackers to me. That being said they could probably attain a vast arsenal of techniques being ageless as they are, but like I said they're lazy.

[Bussani]

I'd say it's unlikely 17 and 18 could get stronger through training. Like it has been mentioned before if they attempted to do any sort of training exercises their cybernetic implants would take on the work for them. If they tried to over exert their cybernetic implants, they'd probably collapse because their muscles certainly wouldn't be able to take the stresses, their super-saiyan-surpassing synthetic parts couldn't without ever having trained. It's ironic their infinite reactors is the very thing, which keeps their strengths stagnant, and as a concupiscence very much definite.

I see the reactors as being infinite in run time, rather than output. Like a Zero Point Reactor or Wave Motion Engine, it might run on some kind of naturally existing energy in another dimension (thereby not breaking the laws of thermodynamics). Like a dimensional windmill.

[Yasai-R-Mighty]

I see the reactors as being infinite in run time, rather than output. Like a Zero Point Reactor or Wave Motion Engine, it might run on some kind of naturally existing energy in another dimension (thereby not breaking the laws of thermodynamics). Like a dimensional windmill.

Oh yeah, I assumed that "infinite" was referring to the energy source, but I thought that was a fun play on words. "The infinite reactors with a definite amount of power."

[Yamcha_krillin]

I'd say it's unlikely 17 and 18 could get stronger through training. Like it has been mentioned before if they attempted to do any sort of training exercises their cybernetic implants would take on the work for them. If they tried to over exert their cybernetic implants, they'd probably collapse because their muscles certainly wouldn't be able to take the stresses, their super-saiyan-surpassing synthetic parts couldn't without ever having trained. It's ironic their infinite reactors is the very thing, which keeps their strengths stagnant, and as a concupiscence very much definite.

Now it would be interesting if they were able to shut them on and off at will, in such away that their bodies can train fully. While ordinarily normal humans (as in not Uub) can't ever hope to come close to saiyan strength, however, can you imagine immortal humans? It seems though that their cybernetic and biological components are integrated in such away, that they're completely interdependent so... probably not even Dr. Briefs can make this possible. Plus I doubt they'd care to go through such trouble, the androids seem like slackers to me. That being said they could probably attain a vast arsenal of techniques being ageless as they are, but like I said they're lazy.

We know for sure that they can get stronger if someone installs them a new,stronger power generator

I'm wondering if the power generator they have inside them can get pumped up by more energy like with training and thus making them stronger

[shinaobi]

Their reactors can't get stronger, otherwise Gero would have had no reason to even come up with the idea of Cell, because he'd already have two designs out there that could do what is basically the same thing, though with less absorbing.

There's also a bit of a robotics principle I can apply as to why the wouldn't. If a design, for any reason, needs to get stronger/better, there is no inherent quality that allows the design to improve itself; you have to either manually improve it or you have to build a new one. The only reasonable method to increase their power would be for them to go under the knife(probably Bulma, if only because she was able to fix #16 right up) and have their reactors/enhancers improved.

[Bussani]

Their reactors can't get stronger, otherwise Gero would have had no reason to even come up with the idea of Cell, because he'd already have two designs out there that could do what is basically the same thing, though with less absorbing.

There's also a bit of a robotics principle I can apply as to why the wouldn't. If a design, for any reason, needs to get stronger/better, there is no inherent quality that allows the design to improve itself; you have to either manually improve it or you have to build a new one. The only reasonable method to increase their power would be for them to go under the knife(probably Bulma, if only because she was able to fix #16 right up) and have their reactors/enhancers improved.

In theory this is right. However, their 'enhancers' could be organic. I don't think there's any direct evidence for or against it, but Bulma does say that they're still mostly human, just altered. If they're organic there could be room for some improvement.

Honestly we just don't know enough about them to come to a good conclusion.

Edit: Whatever their enhancements were, Cell was able to merge with them. And not only that, but regenerate from extremely critical damage that might (especially the self destructing) have destroyed non-organic parts.

[Yamcha_krillin]

Their reactors can't get stronger, otherwise Gero would have had no reason to even come up with the idea of Cell, because he'd already have two designs out there that could do what is basically the same thing, though with less absorbing.

There's also a bit of a robotics principle I can apply as to why the wouldn't. If a design, for any reason, needs to get stronger/better, there is no inherent quality that allows the design to improve itself; you have to either manually improve it or you have to build a new one. The only reasonable method to increase their power would be for them to go under the knife(probably Bulma, if only because she was able to fix #16 right up) and have their reactors/enhancers improved.

In theory this is right. However, their 'enhancers' could be organic. I don't think there's any direct evidence for or against it, but Bulma does say that they're still mostly human, just altered. If they're organic there could be room for some improvement.

Honestly we just don't know enough about them to come to a good conclusion.

Edit: Whatever their enhancements were, Cell was able to merge with them. And not only that, but regenerate from extremely critical damage that might (especially the self destructing) have destroyed non-organic parts.

This makes sense.I remember Bulma saying that they have a few Cybernatic parts and the scan of #17 showed that those parts are mostly on their hands,i don't know where the power Generator is located though.

-Maybe the thing that's giving them energy isn't a generator but something organic ???

[Onikage725]

My question to you is, what's wrong with a power of 9.5 billion, aside from "I don't like the levels that high"? Get power levels out of your head, it's pointless to think about them after the Freeza arc.

I know the obvious counter will be "who cares if it's ridiculous, it's Toriyama," but... that's just ridiculous. Having that kind of a level, before factoring higher transformations is just silly. Given the kind of destruction we see from guys in the low to mid hundreds and thousands, someone in the billions wouldn't be able to sneeze without levelling a city. On top of that, not every character in the series is a Super Saiyan, yet the thinking that leads to super high PL's seems to radiate out from Super Saiyan multipliers and comparison to villains.

[Bussani]

Maybe the thing that's giving them energy isn't a generator but something organic ???

Basically an organic generator. It's possible.

[shinaobi]

Assuming the generator was biological in nature, then, yeah, I can see it as being able to increase its power output; they'd probably need to do Vegeta-and-Goku esque high gravity/afterlife level training to do any better.

I'm still a bit more inclined to believe that they simply had some high-tech thingamajigger inserted where maybe their appendix was or something. But that's just me.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I have a question since the “infinite generators” were brought up in the conversation. Did Super #17 have two of them plus a reservoir where he could add to the power when he absorbed Ki attacks? Since it was the original #17 plus Hell Fighter, #17 combined. Super #17 should have two of the generators.

Also, I believe that Hell Fighter #17 had the advance model because I am one of those that believe that the Saiyans (Vegeta and Kakarrot) could raise the their base combat strength to Buu Saga levels and in light of that we see Hell Fighter #17 fighting Vegeta evenly in his base form. I believe Vegeta even mentions that they were dead even in Dragonball GT.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

My question to you is, what's wrong with a power of 9.5 billion, aside from "I don't like the levels that high"? Get power levels out of your head, it's pointless to think about them after the Freeza arc.

I know the obvious counter will be "who cares if it's ridiculous, it's Toriyama," but... that's just ridiculous. Having that kind of a level, before factoring higher transformations is just silly. Given the kind of destruction we see from guys in the low to mid hundreds and thousands, someone in the billions wouldn't be able to sneeze without levelling a city. On top of that, not every character in the series is a Super Saiyan, yet the thinking that leads to super high PL's seems to radiate out from Super Saiyan multipliers and comparison to villains.

I think, a lot of times, fans tend to forget a few things:

-This is a comic book and cartoon franchise for children
-Toriyama made things up as he went along
-The guy writes poop jokes for a living
-No number is worth more than humor, plot devices, or whatever seems to work at the time
-When dealing with quotes, sometimes WHAT IT SAYS is what it means.

Seriously. Of all people, why do we expect TORIYAMA to say to himself: "When I say Freeza, I expect my readership of mainly 10-13 year-old schoolchildren to go 'Ah! I see now. By "Freeza", he means the power of Freeza in Volume 22, about...three or so chapters in! Yes, of course. This is his divine puzzle!' That wouldn't be a stretch at all."