Ultimate Power-Up and “beyond the normal limits”

[Saiyan-Professor]

You are not reducing them to numbers because their base combat strength grows with training, the Super Saiyan transformation just multiplies that by 50 and so on.

So why do they ever train as Super Saiyans?

It is the equivalent of weight training because of the extra strain it puts on the body and before you go there, the Full Power Super Saiyan stuff just took the restless or weird feeling from them and the instability. Onikage725 explained it in the following manner.

Let's say at base a guy is a 10. He goes SSJ, and now he's a 500. I would say that if he trained in his normal state until his power was 20, his SSJ power would be 1000. However if he trained in his SSJ state until he was at 1000, when he "powered down" he would find his base form toughened up to 20.

Maybe, given the effort to maintain a form, you could think of keeping up SSJ as keeping up that constant modifier. So training in SSJ would simply be yielding results to the base form, but would translate automatically through that x50 filter since the form was active. And you have the bonus of being able to withstand higher levels of training (retroactively benefiting your base, as you wouldn't be able to train at that level otherwise) as well as making it easier to keep the form active...

[Bussani]

Here are some lines from volume 41 of the manga (Viz copies) about Rou Dai Kaioshin's ki unlocking thingy.

Gohan: Shouldn't we be done by now?!
Rou Dai Kaioshin: Huh? What time is it? Hm...if it's not done yet...you musta had plenty o' latent power in ya!

Goku: "Latent power" is hidden power he had inside...right?
Kaioshin: I...I think so...
Goku: How can that be...? ...How much power did Gohan have hiding...?

It seems to imply that all of the power being released is Gohan's. The power he'd be tapping into if he could transform an extra time or two, since Rou Dai Kaioshin later says "transformations aren't everything. That super whatever of yours was just show biz."

Edit: Onikage's theory makes a lot of sense from many angles. I think when Goku and Gohan trained to make SSJ their norm (FPSSJ) they greatly reduced the ki wasted to maintain the form (thus adding that wasted ki to their reserves and increasing their stamina), reduced the restless feeling and, pesonally, I think they greatly reduced the stress it puts on the body too. Like gravity training, eventually your body gets used to the strain and it doesn't count as adequate training any more. This is probably why Goku and Gohan reached a peak and didn't think it would be worth training in the RoSaT for another day.

But also it's about training time. Someone might think, "Well, if they train in their base forms and power up, SSJ will automatically multiply that. So why even bother training as an SSJ any more?" The answer (which may be what Onikage was saying, but I only just really got it) might be that, let's say you're in your base form and you train, gain a little strength, train, gain a little strength, etc. Eventually you outgrow the current level of training and have to move on to something harder.

But if you're SSJ and every little gain of strength is multiplied, you would find yourself outgrowing whatever training you're doing faster, maybe 50 times faster (maybe not, not sure if the 50x power level multiplier equates to training time directly, but you get the idea). You move on to greater training, and outgrow that quicker than you would in base form too. In terms of training time, SSJ forms seem logical in that sense. Although I do think they eventually reach a peak and it becomes harder to increase their strength without moving on to the next form up.

Does that make any sense? It's late and I'm tired so I'm not sure if I'm thinking logically.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...But if you're SSJ and every little gain of strength is multiplied, you would find yourself outgrowing whatever training you're doing faster, maybe 50 times faster (maybe not, not sure if the 50x power level multiplier equates to training time directly, but you get the idea). You move on to greater training, and outgrow that quicker than you would in base form too. In terms of training time, SSJ forms seem logical in that sense. Although I do think they eventually reach a peak and it becomes harder to increase their strength without moving on to the next form up.

Does that make any sense? It's late and I'm tired so I'm not sure if I'm thinking logically.

I agree to a point but there is still something significant about training in high gravity. Vegeta had made tremendous gains since he started using the gravity room in Capsule Corp. It says a lot to only have what every one believed to be a small gap in combat strength with Kakarrot during the Buu Saga when Kakarrot had the advantage of training in Other World.

[Bussani]

...But if you're SSJ and every little gain of strength is multiplied, you would find yourself outgrowing whatever training you're doing faster, maybe 50 times faster (maybe not, not sure if the 50x power level multiplier equates to training time directly, but you get the idea). You move on to greater training, and outgrow that quicker than you would in base form too. In terms of training time, SSJ forms seem logical in that sense. Although I do think they eventually reach a peak and it becomes harder to increase their strength without moving on to the next form up.

Does that make any sense? It's late and I'm tired so I'm not sure if I'm thinking logically.

I agree to a point but there is still something significant about training in high gravity. Vegeta had made tremendous gains since he started using the gravity room in Capsule Corp. It says a lot to only have what every one believed to be a small gap in combat strength with Kakarrot during the Buu Saga when Kakarrot had the advantage of training in Other World.

He can adjust the gravity though. If you train in a higher gravity for a long time, eventually that's going to feel normal to you and not give you so much gain, so you have to increase the gravity. He went up to about 300g in the Android saga I think, really pushing himself, and he probably never got completely used to that gravity so still had room for improvement. Like when Babidi sent them somewhere with 10g, Vegeta barely even seemed to notice.

The gravity room scene from the Buu saga is filler I think, but does anyone know what gravity level him and Trunks were training in there?

Edit: Oh, there's one thing I don't understand. During his training in Other World Kaio seems to imply that he isn't letting Goku train as a Super Saiyajin, and only lets him to show off to that other Kaio. If SSJ is the more efficient mode to train in, why would he be forcing Goku to train in base?

[Rocketman]

The gravity room scene from the Buu saga is filler I think, but does anyone know what gravity level him and Trunks were training in there?

That's not filler (if you mean the scene were Trunks goes SSJ), and they were at 150Gs.

Vegeta is sweating and actually exerting himself as a Super Saiyan at that level, too, so I figure he never went to the full 300Gs way back when, or he found the Saiyan body simply could not take that much force.

[Bussani]

The gravity room scene from the Buu saga is filler I think, but does anyone know what gravity level him and Trunks were training in there?

That's not filler (if you mean the scene were Trunks goes SSJ), and they were at 150Gs.

It's not? Okay, thanks.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The gravity room scene from the Buu saga is filler I think, but does anyone know what gravity level him and Trunks were training in there?

That's not filler (if you mean the scene were Trunks goes SSJ), and they were at 150Gs.

Vegeta is sweating and actually exerting himself as a Super Saiyan at that level, too, so I figure he never went to the full 300Gs way back when, or he found the Saiyan body simply could not take that much force.

Vegeta could have been in there for a while so he could have been sweating and so forth from fatigue. Yeah he may have been used to it but physical exertion will take its toll. Even a champion racehorse will have to stop running and cool down eventually. So it is possible that he could have been training at 300Gs earlier in the series. To add to this in Dragonball GT he was going through 900+Gs in that gravity chair of Bulma’s.

[Bussani]

Onikage's theory makes a lot of sense from many angles. I think when Goku and Gohan trained to make SSJ their norm (FPSSJ) they greatly reduced the ki wasted to maintain the form (thus adding that wasted ki to their reserves and increasing their stamina), reduced the restless feeling and, pesonally, I think they greatly reduced the stress it puts on the body too. Like gravity training, eventually your body gets used to the strain and it doesn't count as adequate training any more. This is probably why Goku and Gohan reached a peak and didn't think it would be worth training in the RoSaT for another day.

But also it's about training time. Someone might think, "Well, if they train in their base forms and power up, SSJ will automatically multiply that. So why even bother training as an SSJ any more?" The answer (which may be what Onikage was saying, but I only just really got it) might be that, let's say you're in your base form and you train, gain a little strength, train, gain a little strength, etc. Eventually you outgrow the current level of training and have to move on to something harder.

But if you're SSJ and every little gain of strength is multiplied, you would find yourself outgrowing whatever training you're doing faster, maybe 50 times faster (maybe not, not sure if the 50x power level multiplier equates to training time directly, but you get the idea). You move on to greater training, and outgrow that quicker than you would in base form too. In terms of training time, SSJ forms seem logical in that sense. Although I do think they eventually reach a peak and it becomes harder to increase their strength without moving on to the next form up.

Does that make any sense? It's late and I'm tired so I'm not sure if I'm thinking logically.

I've thought about it now that I'm awake and there's a second point of view here. Let's say you use weights to train until your power raises by 20 points in base form. It might take a while. However, if you were SSJ and had heavier weights and trained until you'd gained 20 points of power, it would happen much quicker. However, in your base form that would be divided by 50, so it isn't really much of a gain at all.

The whole point was that as a SSJ you could move on to more intense quicker because of the more radical strength boosts, but if you think about it that might actually be an inconvenience since you'd have to keep finding more intense training all the time, quickly outgrowing the current level of training. But even though you're quickly outgrowing it, the boost to your base form is still a lot less, so is it really worth it?

If you dominate a training method that quickly then it feels like a waste. You'd get better results training for longer in base form. I guess both training methods have their advantages though, training in SSJ helps you make the form easier to maintain and become more efficient with managing it's energy too, probably even after the so called FPSSJ (always room for improvement).

[Saiyan-Professor]

...I've thought about it now that I'm awake and there's a second point of view here. Let's say you use weights to train until your power raises by 20 points in base form. It might take a while. However, if you were SSJ and had heavier weights and trained until you'd gained 20 points of power, it would happen much quicker. However, in your base form that would be divided by 50, so it isn't really much of a gain at all.

The whole point was that as a SSJ you could move on to more intense quicker because of the more radical strength boosts, but if you think about it that might actually be an inconvenience since you'd have to keep finding more intense training all the time, quickly outgrowing the current level of training. But even though you're quickly outgrowing it, the boost to your base form is still a lot less, so is it really worth it?

If you dominate a training method that quickly then it feels like a waste. You'd get better results training for longer in base form. I guess both training methods have their advantages though, training in SSJ helps you make the form easier to maintain and become more efficient with managing it's energy too, probably even after the so called FPSSJ (always room for improvement).

You make some valid points; there are some downsides to training as a Super Saiyan. Given the situation with Cell, they had to take any quick gains they could achieve.

[Dayspring]

I see potential as being divided into two: dormant energy and latent energy, where dormant is energy that you can already posess, but can't access due to lack of technique (not strength), and because people die if they use up all their dormant energy. Meanwhile latent energy is true potential; it's the strength you can achieve through a lifetime of training and fighting.

So SSJ levels are all about tapping into one's dormant energy. SSJ3 is a unique SSJ level in that, as implied by both the series and the daizenshuu, it summons ALL one's dormant energy instead of a fraction of it. It's also why it can't be used for more than 5 minutes. Oozaru differs in that it accesses the dormant energy in a form that doesn't have a limit.

Meanwhile Saichoru's ability makes it so that your current strength reaches a level equal to your dormant strength. What's special about the elder Kaioshin is that he not only has the ability to make one's latent energy arise, but add to it.

[Yasai-R-Mighty]

...This explanation makes the most sense to me. Gohan can't train 24/7 (nor would he want to, lazy slacker!) plus he's mortal and has a set amount of time to train before he'd die of old age, preventing him from achieving what his body might be capable of if he had a limitless amount of training. In fact I don't think anyone has the privilege to accomplish this, except for the deceased hero's who get to keep their bodies. To me that's what Old Kaioshin's abilities dose for you, it lets you attain the power not possible of getting without eons of training, that's what I think he means by "beyond normal limits".

If that were the case then Son Gohan would have the combat strength of Super Saiyan 1000.[/quote]

Well, I think being able to take on Super Buu with relatively minimal effort, while Goku in SSJ3 just about matched Fat Buu, is a really good demonstration of just how incredibly powerful Gohan became. I doubt even if a saiyan trained for a million years, they'd be able to attain something like SSJ 1,000 all bodies have limits. Then again when you're that strong what dose it matter.

If we consider GT canon, I wonder if a full blooded Saiyajin would have even greater hidden potential because of SSJ4? Maybe if Rou Dai Kaioshin had picked Goku or Vegeta instead they would have gained SSJ4 strength in their base forms.

My guess would be no, because SSJ4's base form is the Oozaru. I don't think that power can be tapped into without it.

I suppose I should clarify that while I hate GT I love SSJ4. Yep, SSJ4 and Cyborg 17's character design only two good thing about GT.

[Bussani]

My guess would be no, because SSJ4's base form is the Oozaru. I don't think that power can be tapped into without it.

Hmm...maybe. But SSJ power should only be tapped into with SSJ, yet Rou Dai Kaioshin apparently drew that power out. If an Oozaru's power is something separate and not just coming from the same overall 'pool' of hidden power, I think Rou Dai Kaioshin would have brought it out too. He did say he was bringing out all of Gohan's power. Bringing out the power of the Oozaru too might be one of the things he meant by 'beyond your limits'.

But that leaves the question of why he didn't unlock Goku's potential in the same way he did Gohan's. No time maybe? I haven't seen GT in about a decade so I don't remember if it was addressed.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...
Meanwhile Saichoru's ability makes it so that your current strength reaches a level equal to your dormant strength. What's special about the elder Kaioshin is that he not only has the ability to make one's latent energy arise, but add to it.

Okay, that answers that, because once you hit someone's limit that is it yet Old Kaiôshin said he went beyond those limits. Now the question is where did he get the extra power or Ki to add to Son Gohan?

My guess would be no, because SSJ4's base form is the Oozaru. I don't think that power can be tapped into without it.

Hmm...maybe. But SSJ power should only be tapped into with SSJ, yet Rou Dai Kaioshin apparently drew that power out. If an Oozaru's power is something separate and not just coming from the same overall 'pool' of hidden power, I think Rou Dai Kaioshin would have brought it out too. He did say he was bringing out all of Gohan's power. Bringing out the power of the Oozaru too might be one of the things he meant by 'beyond your limits'.

I believe the Ôzaru would not even be in the equation because supposedly it multiplies the base combat strength by a measly 10, while Super Saiyan multiplies it by 50.

But that leaves the question of why he didn't unlock Goku's potential in the same way he did Gohan's. No time maybe? I haven't seen GT in about a decade so I don't remember if it was addressed.

They did not address that but they seemed to imply that restoring Kakarrot’s tail (which eventually led to Golden Ôzaru and Super Saiyan 4) was far more effective against Bebi than anything else that could be done. This goes along with my stating that the GT battle power levels far surpassed those of Z, thus I make distinctions such as “Z-class” and “GT-class”.

[Bussani]

Personally I don't think Rou Dai Kaioshin added anything to Gohan's power. Like those quotes I posted from the manga said, they were impressed at how long it was taking to draw all of Gohan's power out. There was no mention of adding to it; it was all Gohan's power.

And about the x10 boost of Oozaru; you said it yourself Professor, that power has to come from somewhere. If mixing the form of Oozaru and SSJ together can bring out such power (aka Golden Oozaru), then that power must have been in there somewhere from the beginning.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Personally I don't think Rou Dai Kaioshin added anything to Gohan's power. Like those quotes I posted from the manga said, they were impressed at how long it was taking to draw all of Gohan's power out. There was no mention of adding to it; it was all Gohan's power.

And about the x10 boost of Oozaru; you said it yourself Professor, that power has to come from somewhere. If mixing the form of Oozaru and SSJ together can bring out such power (aka Golden Oozaru), then that power must have been in there somewhere from the beginning.

Old Kaiôshin said he could give someone power beyond their normal limits in the manga. Limit is defined as:

the farthest point, degree, amount, or boundary, especially one that cannot or should not be passed or exceeded

the maximum or minimum amount, or the largest or lowest quantity, that is available or allowed

They extra had to come from somewhere to exceed the limit. In GT when the Saiyans were doing their 'let us power Kakarrot up with our Saiya-power' routine to defeat Yi Xing Long. Kakarrot said that he had to go beyond his limits and Son Gohan was attempting to figure out how that was even probable or if it was safe to do so, one can go beyond their normal limits but the power to push them pass that point has to come from somewhere. We also have another example in Movie #8 where they all engaged in the power lend technique to introduce the world to the “Toei Punch”.

[Bussani]

As I said before, I think 'beyond their limits' can mean beyond the limits of their bodies. To draw their power out beyond their limits. It's still their power, but they were physically incapable of tapping into it. That's what I think, anyway.

For example, in the Cell saga they have to find a way to go beyond the limits of Super Saiyajin. This didn't mean getting power from somewhere else, it just meant finding a way to tap into more of the potential power a Saiyajin has. I think Rou Dai Kaioshin's power up is that to the extreme.

[Saiyan-Professor]

As I said before, I think 'beyond their limits' can mean beyond the limits of their bodies. To draw their power out beyond their limits. It's still their power, but they were physically incapable of tapping into it. That's what I think, anyway.

For example, in the Cell saga they have to find a way to go beyond the limits of Super Saiyajin. This didn't mean getting power from somewhere else, it just meant finding a way to tap into more of the potential power a Saiyajin has. I think Rou Dai Kaioshin's power up is that to the extreme.

Well technically the only one that surpassed Super Saiyan was Son Gohan. Ultra Super Saiyan 1 and 2 was nothing but Super Saiyan 1 Second and Third Grade. Son Gohan achieved Super Saiyan 2 via the power he had but could not access. Vegeta and Kakarrot achieved theirs through “harsh training”, i.e. they went passed their limits in the normal fashion. Old Kaiôshin in essence said that he could go beyond what Saichoro did on Namek. If I recall correctly Saichoro told Kuririn that he could only pull out the power that they already possessed but could not access.

[Dayspring]

Personally I see the added energy as being one of two things:

1) As I mentioned, it's impossible for any living creature to permanently maintain it's dormant energy. If you do, you die from using it all up. Is there a time where we see Gohan (post-power up) as being exhausted? If not, then it's possible that Rou Kaioshin's technique uses both latent AND dormant energy. IE: It does the latent energy revelation, but then also makes it so that final amount of dormant energy can be tapped as well without killing off the person.

2) Rou Kaioshin's own energy is what gets added to it. IE: If Gohan prior had a PL of 20 and a PL of 1,000,001 post, then 1,000,000 would be from Gohan and 1 would be from Rou Kaioshin. What's impressive isn't the energy Rou Kaioshin added on top, just the fact that it can happen. Hence why emphasis is put on the time it took to draw out Gohan's latent energy.

The first example would work with Bussani's theory, while the second is my own personal belief.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Personally I see the added energy as being one of two things:

1) As I mentioned, it's impossible for any living creature to permanently maintain it's dormant energy. If you do, you die from using it all up. Is there a time where we see Gohan (post-power up) as being exhausted? If not, then it's possible that Rou Kaioshin's technique uses both latent AND dormant energy. IE: It does the latent energy revelation, but then also makes it so that final amount of dormant energy can be tapped as well without killing off the person.

2) Rou Kaioshin's own energy is what gets added to it. IE: If Gohan prior had a PL of 20 and a PL of 1,000,001 post, then 1,000,000 would be from Gohan and 1 would be from Rou Kaioshin. What's impressive isn't the energy Rou Kaioshin added on top, just the fact that it can happen. Hence why emphasis is put on the time it took to draw out Gohan's latent energy.

The first example would work with Bussani's theory, while the second is my own personal belief.

The second one you presented appears to coincide with what I see the manga indicating. Perhaps Rou Kaiôshin can tap into another dimension that is composed of energy as we see the majority of Marvel Comics characters tap into a psionic dimension.

[Dayspring]

Personally I see the added energy as being one of two things:

1) As I mentioned, it's impossible for any living creature to permanently maintain it's dormant energy. If you do, you die from using it all up. Is there a time where we see Gohan (post-power up) as being exhausted? If not, then it's possible that Rou Kaioshin's technique uses both latent AND dormant energy. IE: It does the latent energy revelation, but then also makes it so that final amount of dormant energy can be tapped as well without killing off the person.

2) Rou Kaioshin's own energy is what gets added to it. IE: If Gohan prior had a PL of 20 and a PL of 1,000,001 post, then 1,000,000 would be from Gohan and 1 would be from Rou Kaioshin. What's impressive isn't the energy Rou Kaioshin added on top, just the fact that it can happen. Hence why emphasis is put on the time it took to draw out Gohan's latent energy.

The first example would work with Bussani's theory, while the second is my own personal belief.

The second one you presented appears to coincide with what I see the manga indicating. Perhaps Rou Kaiôshin can tap into another dimension that is composed of energy as we see the majority of Marvel Comics characters tap into a psionic dimension.

It's probably his own energy, similar to a regular ki transferal.

Another possibility is a combination of the two examples: the technique does the first example, but to make sure the person doesn't die, Rou Kaioshin uses his own or some magical energy to create an artificial new dormant energy.