Kai Episode 1 (05 April 2009)

obiwan23s · Post by **obiwan23s** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:04 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:Great Wall of Text

Maybe it's just me, and maybe I don't bleed Dragon Ball the way I used to, but I think you're giving up on a lot of things based on the first episode. I agree with the music not being on par with the original Z score, but in my opinion that is 99.9% because I have many years worth of exposure to that old score and only one episode of exposure to the new one. I really loved Piccolo's theme in the old score and pretty much any theme involving brass instruments was really awesome. My favorite theme from the old score was the one played when Goku and Gohan come out of the Room of Spirit and Time and the camera pans over Gohan's new outfit with the cape. That theme rocked so hard. I'll be sad to see it go.

But like I said, I guess I don't bleed Dragon Ball the way I used to, because I'm not feeling like I lost any of the emotional attachment to the events of the story the way you're describing. And the main scene you keep referencing as the basis of your beef with the pacing was shortened by only fifteen seconds (the Raditz and Piccolo scene), and most of that was sped up in the beginning when Piccolo was looking to the sky to see who was coming. I mean, really? 15 seconds completely blew the pacing of that scene for you? I think you're thinking about it way too hard here. For what it's worth I logged the times from when Piccolo sensed a large power and from when Raditz peaced off to go find Kakarrot, and we lost fifteen seconds between the version in Z episode 1 and Kai episode 1.

I agree with you on the voices being a little under par too but it's not like wrecking the show for me, and I'm cutting the actors some slack for not having recorded these voices for a TV program since GT ended. Sure they recorded them for games but games are a different animal. They're probably having to record the lines the same way the Funimation actors did (matching mouth flaps) since they're not recording the lines first and then animating the show so the mouth flaps fit the audio, the way the original Z audio was done.

Overall, I'm not sold on this idea that Kai is botching the pacing of Z. And with the multitude of timeskips going on in modern shows I won't be surprised if it takes only six or seven episodes to cover the one year break between Raditz dying and Vegeta showing up. I'm giving the new score a chance to get better or grow on me rather than throwing it under the bus from the outset. If you want to do that, hey, go for it. I'm just playing the other side here.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:19 am

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:25 am

Fifteen seconds is an eternity in animation hon. You have no idea how many days and days it takes to fully finish that much work. It absolutely matters.

I haven't analyzed the pacing as closely as you guys have because I mostly like the contact high of "holyshitnewDragonball" more than thinking too heavily into it. But as someone who's done animation, I needed to give feedback on that one statement.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:59 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:I never, ever said I was "giving up on" Kai. I reiterated many times that I realize full well it's just the first episode, that it has a great deal more to go to win me over, and that I'm still in it for at least (at the absolute least) the bulk of the Saiya-jin arc.

Why did you give me a WALL OF TEXT reply about something I said that doesn't even apply to you?
I know full well that there are people who are making legitimate claims about Kai, but I'm talking about the people who are basically dismissing Kai entirely and saying things like "Toei Raped DBZ".
You KNOW you're not the kind of person who is simply dismissive of it since it's new, so why did you get upset when I said something about people like that?

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:06 am

Vekurotto wrote:Take the scene after Piccolo encounters Radditz in the original anime to Kai's version. I honestly did not feel like Radditz was a "threat" like how I did in the original anime. I don't know why but I'm going to partially blame the music that was used. It was just, random for the only piece that Yamamoto could've thought of was a piece that sounded like it should've been in Star Wars. I felt like the entire was just lacking something.

The BGM when Raditz and Piccolo had their encounter wasn't the "Star Wars" one. It was the one with the heavy guitar. The "Star Wars Imperial March" sounding one was at the end, I think.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:34 am

DemonRin wrote:You KNOW you're not the kind of person who is simply dismissive of it since it's new, so why did you get upset when I said something about people like that?

Probably because you replied with the "They Changed It, Now It Sucks" to his post, thus inferring his disagreement with the changes were along those lines. The quote of his post when you answered with that didn’t help the assumption.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:39 am

Velasa wrote:
DemonRin wrote:You KNOW you're not the kind of person who is simply dismissive of it since it's new, so why did you get upset when I said something about people like that?
Probably because you replied with the "They Changed It, Now It Sucks" to his post, thus inferring his disagreement with the changes were along those lines. The quote of his post when you answered with that didn’t help the assumption.

No. I made an independent thought (without quoting anybody) in regards to general statements about pacing, then he quoted me with "They Changed It, Now It Sucks." Then Kunzait_83 quoted him.

Velasa · Post by **Velasa** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:43 am

The reply refered to DemonRin's question hon., not yours.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:51 am

Velasa wrote:The reply refered to DemonRin's question hon., not yours.

Yeah, and you answered his question by saying, "Because you replied to him with this," when in fact he replied to me with "this" and not Kunzait. So, I corrected you. Maybe his post applied to Kunzait's thoughts in some way (hence the wall of text) but he didn't reply to Kunzait with that link. He replied to me with that link.

That's the point I was trying to get across.

DemonRin · Post by **DemonRin** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:00 am

Kendamu wrote:Yeah, and you answered his question by saying, "Because you replied to him with this," when in fact he replied to me with "this" and not Kunzait. So, I corrected you. Maybe his post applied to Kunzait's thoughts in some way (hence the wall of text) but he didn't reply to Kunzait with that link. He replied to me with that link.

That's the point I was trying to get across.

Who replied to who with what now?
This post confused me...

Wasted Wisher · Post by **Wasted Wisher** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:09 am

Hey people. Surprised (and somewhat pleased) that Kai got its own section in the forum. Seems there's a lot of discussion going on, which is good I suppose (even if it ain't always pleasant).

To be honest...I haven't watched Kai yet. But I'm sure they'll send us a copy of the episode soon...

After looking at all the screencaps taken so far, I can't believe that painting errors still came through. (Like Raditz' uncolored tail...)

As for issues about blood and censorship...here's what I know. The decision to change Piccolo's blood to violet/purple was indeed a continuity check, to make it consistent throughout the show. However, there is apparently a little blood censorship going on. You'll notice this when episode 3 comes out, I'm sure. But if you can't wait, here's the deal: there's a scene where Raditz is lying face down on the ground, speaking his last words. In the original footage, there's blood from his mouth that's pooled a little on the ground. In the Kai version, the blood from his mouth is still there, but the pooled-up blood on the ground has been omitted. (In either case, though, the blood is still red.)

Piccolo's finger count...since the scenes are being re-drawn anyway, it really shouldn't have been hard at all to make the changes so that he matches his four-fingered look in the manga. It's what I would've done if I were in a position to do anything about it...but I'm just a grunt, not top-brass.

I'm embarrassed to see that there are still scenes that got past the animation checkers. I would've thought since produciton started on this project rather early, most of the scenes were checked properly. *Sigh*

By the way, what do you guys think of the scenes that I re-drew? (That would be the one with young Goku swinging through the trees, and the one with Piccolo spewing blood from his mouth.) Did they come out all right?

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:52 am

Wasted Wisher wrote: As for issues about blood and censorship...here's what I know. The decision to change Piccolo's blood to violet/purple was indeed a continuity check, to make it consistent throughout the show. However, there is apparently a little blood censorship going on. You'll notice this when episode 3 comes out, I'm sure. But if you can't wait, here's the deal: there's a scene where Raditz is lying face down on the ground, speaking his last words. In the original footage, there's blood from his mouth that's pooled a little on the ground. In the Kai version, the blood from his mouth is still there, but the pooled-up blood on the ground has been omitted. (In either case, though, the blood is still red.)

By the way, what do you guys think of the scenes that I re-drew? (That would be the one with young Goku swinging through the trees, and the one with Piccolo spewing blood from his mouth.) Did they come out all right?

Sucks about the censorship... I really liked the scene where Piccolo spewed blood from his moth.

Son Sebbe · Post by **Son Sebbe** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:02 am

Wasted Wisher wrote:Hey people. Surprised (and somewhat pleased) that Kai got its own section in the forum. Seems there's a lot of discussion going on, which is good I suppose (even if it ain't always pleasant).

To be honest...I haven't watched Kai yet. But I'm sure they'll send us a copy of the episode soon...

After looking at all the screencaps taken so far, I can't believe that painting errors still came through. (Like Raditz' uncolored tail...)

As for issues about blood and censorship...here's what I know. The decision to change Piccolo's blood to violet/purple was indeed a continuity check, to make it consistent throughout the show. However, there is apparently a little blood censorship going on. You'll notice this when episode 3 comes out, I'm sure. But if you can't wait, here's the deal: there's a scene where Raditz is lying face down on the ground, speaking his last words. In the original footage, there's blood from his mouth that's pooled a little on the ground. In the Kai version, the blood from his mouth is still there, but the pooled-up blood on the ground has been omitted. (In either case, though, the blood is still red.)

Piccolo's finger count...since the scenes are being re-drawn anyway, it really shouldn't have been hard at all to make the changes so that he matches his four-fingered look in the manga. It's what I would've done if I were in a position to do anything about it...but I'm just a grunt, not top-brass.

I'm embarrassed to see that there are still scenes that got past the animation checkers. I would've thought since produciton started on this project rather early, most of the scenes were checked properly. *Sigh*

By the way, what do you guys think of the scenes that I re-drew? (That would be the one with young Goku swinging through the trees, and the one with Piccolo spewing blood from his mouth.) Did they come out all right?

Thanks a lot... I didn't notice that before...
Now Kai just falled 5 percent in my personal rating.

But becide that, I checked your scenes. And I'll promote you to cheifanimator/Animation checker/Mafioso boss for toei.
They came out perfect.

Kendamu · Post by **Kendamu** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:09 am

Wasted Wisher wrote:As for issues about blood and censorship...here's what I know. The decision to change Piccolo's blood to violet/purple was indeed a continuity check, to make it consistent throughout the show. However, there is apparently a little blood censorship going on. You'll notice this when episode 3 comes out, I'm sure. But if you can't wait, here's the deal: there's a scene where Raditz is lying face down on the ground, speaking his last words. In the original footage, there's blood from his mouth that's pooled a little on the ground. In the Kai version, the blood from his mouth is still there, but the pooled-up blood on the ground has been omitted. (In either case, though, the blood is still red.)

Sucks that there's blood censorship like that. That's like one manga panel, though, and the pool is really tiny. It won't bother me all that much. Had you not mentioned it, I wouldn't have even missed it. Thanks for mentioning it, though. It'll give the people who are more disappointed by it a few days to get used to the idea before actually seeing it.

By the way, what do you guys think of the scenes that I re-drew? (That would be the one with young Goku swinging through the trees, and the one with Piccolo spewing blood from his mouth.) Did they come out all right?

They came out alright to me! Keep up the good work!

Patient-mental · Post by **Patient-mental** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:41 am

Wasted Wisher wrote: By the way, what do you guys think of the scenes that I re-drew? (That would be the one with young Goku swinging through the trees, and the one with Piccolo spewing blood from his mouth.) Did they come out all right?

Piccolo looked awesome, goku... not entirely so, looked good just looked out of place and the outline of the eyes made it really noticeable, it stood out more and didn't blend in as smooth as the piccolo scene.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:36 am

I think a lot of the work has been awesome so far. Is it likely you are listed in the credits, WW?

Wasted Wisher · Post by **Wasted Wisher** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:32 pm

JulieYBM>
Hmmm, I honestly don't know. The only people they credit by name from our branch of the studio are the key animators. Everyone else just gets a mention by department.
For example, if our bg dept., ib dept. or the painting dept. provided work to a show, you'll see them credited in their respective departments as "TAP" (TOEI Animation Philippines).
But the scenes I re-drew were used as keys...who knows? It would certainly be cool if my name were in the credits (even in Katakana).

Patient-mental>
Yeah, I guess the double-lines on some of the eyes came out a little thick. I'll try to watch out for that from now on.

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:36 pm

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Thu Apr 09, 2009 12:37 pm

Wasted Wisher wrote:In the original footage, there's blood from his mouth that's pooled a little on the ground. In the Kai version, the blood from his mouth is still there, but the pooled-up blood on the ground has been omitted. (In either case, though, the blood is still red.)

That sounds like Korean & Arabic dub. They didn't show the pooled-up blood.

Wasted Wisher wrote:By the way, what do you guys think of the scenes that I re-drew? (That would be the one with young Goku swinging through the trees, and the one with Piccolo spewing blood from his mouth.) Did they come out all right?

They were good enough except the outline of Goku's eyes, as Patient-mental already mentioned.

By the way, you said this before:

All I know is that at the part of the production where I am involved, it certainly was not cropped.

This means it was not cropped when you re-drew these scenes, right?
If it's so, did they crop your works after you finished them?
Furthermore, if you could, would you post a shot of some re-drawn scene not cropped yet?

Kanzenshuu

Kai Episode 1 (05 April 2009)

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