The black character's lips

SonEric84 · Post by **SonEric84** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:45 am

Honestly, until I saw it brought up on this forum I had never even really thought about the racial implications of Dragon Ball. Talk about reading too much into things...

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 9:59 am

SonEric84 wrote:Honestly, until I saw it brought up on this forum I had never even really thought about the racial implications of Dragon Ball. Talk about reading too much into things...

That happened to me also.

mister yummy · Post by **mister yummy** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:49 am

You know, I wouldn't doubt that Toriyama-sensei has never seen a black person. I never saw one until I was 12, and I live in the United States! As it is, I've spoken with, maybe, 20 black people in my 25 years. I'd imagine there are a lot less African Japanese than African Americans too.

I'm sure he never had a rascist thought when drawing Black and Popo and all those background characters. He probably thought "I need to make this character black. I haven't seen many black people, so I'll look at how the Americans draw them. *gets out old, steryotypiocal Sambo-like image, with no idea of what that image implies*, ah, that's how they draw them, so I'll make mine look similiar"

No malice, no rascism. Just perpetuation of a steryotype.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:06 am

mister yummy wrote:You know, I wouldn't doubt that Toriyama-sensei has never seen a black person. I never saw one until I was 12, and I live in the United States! As it is, I've spoken with, maybe, 20 black people in my 25 years. I'd imagine there are a lot less African Japanese than African Americans too.

I'm sure he never had a rascist thought when drawing Black and Popo and all those background characters. He probably thought "I need to make this character black. I haven't seen many black people, so I'll look at how the Americans draw them. *gets out old, steryotypiocal Sambo-like image, with no idea of what that image implies*, ah, that's how they draw them, so I'll make mine look similiar"

No malice, no rascism. Just perpetuation of a steryotype.

Come on man, Toriyama himself said that he watched/watches a lot of movies. So in all his movie viewing he never saw a black person in order to make an accurate visual depiction.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:21 am

It's pretty naive to assume that Toriyama never saw a black person in his life.

And Mr. Popo is a fat sambo with genie wear, that's it. That's about as bad as you get, sorry.

B · Post by B » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:22 am

Deep Thought wrote:It's pretty naive to assume that Toriyama never saw a black person in his life.

And Mr. Popo is a fat sambo with genie wear, that's it. That's about as bad as you get, sorry.

I think this ends the thread. It seems like we're going in circles about this stupid crap.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:25 am

B wrote:
Deep Thought wrote:It's pretty naive to assume that Toriyama never saw a black person in his life.

And Mr. Popo is a fat sambo with genie wear, that's it. That's about as bad as you get, sorry.
I think this ends the thread. It seems like we're going in circles about this stupid crap.

Tell me, how can you get any worse than that? If Popo had big, white teeth with a shirt that had "BLACK SLAVE SAMBO" on it?

Seriously, the only reason why people are defending this is because it was made by Akira Toriyama, and fanboys will defend anything. No other reason. I guarantee that if a design similar to Mr. Popo was made but by some white American kid, he'd get bashed to hell for it. And rightly so.

But, NO, IT'S MADE BY AKIRA TORIYAMA, THE FLAWLESS GOD OF EVERYTHING! HE CAN'T MEAN HARM, BECAUSE HIS HEART IS CLEAN AND PURE! And a lot of other bullshit that I could throw in there.

B · Post by B » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:35 am

You brought that up about two pages ago. And the fanboys defending the obviously racist image that is Popo used the same argument they did on page one. You're right, but beating it into the ground is not changing anyone's mind, it's just annoying. Same goes for people defending it.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:53 am

mister yummy wrote:You know, I wouldn't doubt that Toriyama-sensei has never seen a black person. I never saw one until I was 12, and I live in the United States! As it is, I've spoken with, maybe, 20 black people in my 25 years. I'd imagine there are a lot less African Japanese than African Americans too.

I'm sure he never had a rascist thought when drawing Black and Popo and all those background characters. He probably thought "I need to make this character black. I haven't seen many black people, so I'll look at how the Americans draw them. *gets out old, steryotypiocal Sambo-like image, with no idea of what that image implies*, ah, that's how they draw them, so I'll make mine look similiar"

No malice, no rascism. Just perpetuation of a steryotype.

I don`t think so.

He did know what it was used for. But he liked the esthectics of the design since they were goofy and unreal.

I don`t think there was ignorance from his part, I only think there was no intention of racism in using those influences in the design, since the charathers are not treated with discrimination of any kind. And I`m repeating myself already.

SHINOBI-03 · Post by **SHINOBI-03** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:56 am

Deep Thought wrote: Seriously, the only reason why people are defending this is because it was made by Akira Toriyama, and fanboys will defend anything. No other reason. I guarantee that if a design similar to Mr. Popo was made but by some white American kid, he'd get bashed to hell for it. And rightly so.

But, NO, IT'S MADE BY AKIRA TORIYAMA, THE FLAWLESS GOD OF EVERYTHING! HE CAN'T MEAN HARM, BECAUSE HIS HEART IS CLEAN AND PURE! And a lot of other bullshit that I could throw in there.

Toriyama is a Human, and he is not perfect.

If I was a black man, I may take the sambo seriously if I knew what's wrong with it and why it's considered an insult.

I'm Arabian, and proud about it. What do you think how we feel about the steryotypiocal image of the Arabian life? "A tripe living in a desert, using camels for transpotation, a fat rich man with a huge beard, bellydancers, terorristes, no electricity, pyramids in the background with oil wells, etc."

I hate Disney's Aladin. I hate a scene in the Transformation movie. I hate an episode of Samurai Jack. Why? because of the false image of Arabia thanks to Hollywood and their %#@ minds.

Toriyama isn't innocent about that either. and Viz didn't do much help with Bulma's comments about the "Arabian Villaige" where they met Toninjinka: "Civilization!! (Or close!)" " Wonder if they sell Hoi-Poi capsules in this dump..." , and Taopaipai's comment about the "Arabian cloths" that he had to wear till he get his cloths "I can suffer this embarrassing outfit no longer than that."

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:57 am

rereboy wrote:
mister yummy wrote:You know, I wouldn't doubt that Toriyama-sensei has never seen a black person. I never saw one until I was 12, and I live in the United States! As it is, I've spoken with, maybe, 20 black people in my 25 years. I'd imagine there are a lot less African Japanese than African Americans too.

I'm sure he never had a rascist thought when drawing Black and Popo and all those background characters. He probably thought "I need to make this character black. I haven't seen many black people, so I'll look at how the Americans draw them. *gets out old, steryotypiocal Sambo-like image, with no idea of what that image implies*, ah, that's how they draw them, so I'll make mine look similiar"

No malice, no rascism. Just perpetuation of a steryotype.
I don`t think so.

He did know what it was used for. But he liked the esthectics of the design since they were goofy and unreal.

I don`t think there was ignorance from his part, I only think there was no intention of racism in using those influences in the design, since the charathers are not treated with discrimination of any kind. And I`m repeating myself already.

Everyone continues to make the comment that he used it for “esthetic” purposes; does anyone have proof of this? Is there an interview somewhere?

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:07 pm

Saiyan-Professor

I`ve already said that that`s what I think. And I`ve already said that if the author did use the design with ill intent or due to racist intent, then there is obviously racism in the design and in DB.

However, since there isn`t any indication of any discrimination regarding those charathers when compared to other charathers, we cannot say for sure that there was such an intent.

Therefore it is my opinion that they were just design options due to their goofiness and etc, because, if there was such an intent, I think there would be more indications of the authors opinion. That is my opinion.

And for definitions of racism check my previous posts.

The Tori-bot · Post by **The Tori-bot** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:23 pm

I think this thread should just be closed now, this has just been going round in circles for the last couple of pages.

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:50 pm

I think Toriyama didn't mean any harm by giving his black characters bigger lips. I do admit that to give an honest opinion on the matter, actually being black would help, I think at first, for example witnessing Black from Dragonball, his characteristics seem very black, his name is Black, but apart from all, the main part that I would find offensive is the fact that he's Red's assistant, and Red treats him more like a slave, 'do this', 'do that', 'do what I say', I would find those actions offensive for a small while, but just accept it, after all, Black betrays Red and kills him, so it's not like he doesn't get what's coming to him.

The character designs with the lips, and lets just say the colour as well, none of that to me should be offensive, he's just trying to make people look as they would in reality with a slight comical appearance, I mean there's certain Japanese/Chinese stereotypes there as well, look at Kurilin's eyes when he first appears, they look sort of half closed impersonating the typical asian eyes. Mr. Popo isn't even a human, even though I even have black friends who call him the Black guy, I still consider that a lack of knowledge of the show, their not exactly regular viewers, and DBZ doesn't even air in the UK it's a thing of the past, how are they to know he's some kind of mystical being who assists the Earth's God?

All this racism gets OTT, even though most black DB characters blatantly mimic the way black people act or look in a comical way, it's not to the level where it needs action taken against it.

Sorry, but all this talk reminded me of a scene I saw in 'The Catherine Tate show' which still airs in the UK. To my luck YouTube will have the clip I'm after. She picks on some regularly picked on races, performing an impersination of a few (obvious) races people joke about, she is meant to be a translator, but ends up splurting out a load of racists mimics of that type of language, (in this programme this woman will say she can do anything even though she is incapable of it, in this case she happens to have to translate in an important meeting to CEO's from France, Spain, Italy, India, China and Africa so if you are from those countries and take offense easily just don't watch this clip) me having some Italian blood wasn't expecting her to include that country in her joke, and when I saw it I was shocked for a split second, and then though I laughed my ass off for the ones before Italy, so why am I slightly offended? I quickly changed my mind and accepted it's a joke, and yes you can laugh at jokes even directed towards your race, its light hearted fun, and if people can see the funny side of this 2 and a half minute clip, then I'm sure anything considered racist in DB will be laughed at. Please watch this clip and don't get offended, just laugh! It's very funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY66ZJ0TFUI

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:44 pm

You guys are getting off-topic by not addressing racism itself (ie: someone even said it's impossible to be racist towards white people).

Racism is the belief that a race is superior or inferior to another. It's also the belief that a person's personal and moral traits are predetermined by his inborn biological characteristics.

Toriyama makes caricatures of the biological charactersitics of ALL races. This doesn't mean it's racist, it means he's being a jerk. Ironically, if you feel he singles out black people, you're actually agreeing with every other race's caricatures, which would make you the racist, as you're assuming it's only black people who can be victimized in this fashion.

Deep Thought · Post by **Deep Thought** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:52 pm

Dayspring wrote:You guys are getting off-topic by not addressing racism itself (ie: someone even said it's impossible to be racist towards white people).

Racism is the belief that a race is superior or inferior to another. It's also the belief that a person's personal and moral traits are predetermined by his inborn biological characteristics.

Toriyama makes caricatures of the biological charactersitics of ALL races. This doesn't mean it's racist, it means he's being a jerk. Ironically, if you feel he singles out black people, you're actually agreeing with every other race's caricatures, which would make you the racist, as you're assuming it's only black people who can be victimized in this fashion.

How does he characterize Asians, or whites? Tell me that.

B wrote:You brought that up about two pages ago. And the fanboys defending the obviously racist image that is Popo used the same argument they did on page one. You're right, but beating it into the ground is not changing anyone's mind, it's just annoying. Same goes for people defending it.

That's because things went like this:

"PEOPLE ARE BEING FUCKING FOOLISH, SUGGESTING THAT TORIYAMA IS BEING RACIST. MR. POPO IS HARMLESS, RACISM DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE, ESPECIALLY IN ASIA. AKIRA WAS JUST MISUNDERSTOOD......." - almost everyone.

"Actually, no, there are some very racist things about Mr. Popo's design......" - Me.

Very little to no response to that from almost everyone. People keep saying the same things. Also, 3/4ths of the people who posted in this topic are too ignorant to even know what makes Sambo so bad, so I don't know why I bother, anyway.

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:12 pm

I think Stan and Token's closing words in the SouthPark "N Word" episode best describes this whole conversation. They just do not get it!

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:36 pm

Deep Thought wrote:
Dayspring wrote:You guys are getting off-topic by not addressing racism itself (ie: someone even said it's impossible to be racist towards white people).

Racism is the belief that a race is superior or inferior to another. It's also the belief that a person's personal and moral traits are predetermined by his inborn biological characteristics.

Toriyama makes caricatures of the biological charactersitics of ALL races. This doesn't mean it's racist, it means he's being a jerk. Ironically, if you feel he singles out black people, you're actually agreeing with every other race's caricatures, which would make you the racist, as you're assuming it's only black people who can be victimized in this fashion.
How does he characterize Asians, or whites? Tell me that.

Are you kidding me?

Asians are always at least one of the following: slant-eyed, fat, perverted, bumpkin. Meanwhile white people are always taken from greedy, muscular jocks, arrogant, ditzy, beautiful. Even uses the Canadian equivalent of a Blackface: they all carry axes, wear red flanel shirts and winter hats.

B wrote:You brought that up about two pages ago. And the fanboys defending the obviously racist image that is Popo used the same argument they did on page one. You're right, but beating it into the ground is not changing anyone's mind, it's just annoying. Same goes for people defending it.
That's because things went like this:

"PEOPLE ARE BEING FUCKING FOOLISH, SUGGESTING THAT TORIYAMA IS BEING RACIST. MR. POPO IS HARMLESS, RACISM DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE, ESPECIALLY IN ASIA. AKIRA WAS JUST MISUNDERSTOOD......." - almost everyone.

"Actually, no, there are some very racist things about Mr. Popo's design......" - Me.

Very little to no response to that from almost everyone. People keep saying the same things. Also, 3/4ths of the people who posted in this topic are too ignorant to even know what makes Sambo so bad, so I don't know why I bother, anyway.

But that's just it: Sambo in-of-itself isn't racist. If the caricature is supposed to mean how Sambo is a caricature of black people, THEN it's racist. Clearly Popo is not supposed to be taken exactly as Sambo, just that his facial appearance is similar to Sambo. It's no more racist than Star Trek Vulcans are racist depictions of Greek Orthodox Jews. (Although if you do find Vulcans are racist depictions, I may have worked against myself...

)

BTW, Prof: assuming we're incapable of understanding because we're not black is racist.

EDIT: Oh, fuck me. THIS ended up being my 5,000th post? What a waste. **gonk**

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:10 pm

@ Deep Thought

You really are exaggerating the defence of Akira Toriyama by members on this board.
Instead of the defect-capslock replies you are implying to I only see soft honest statements of people who really did not see any racism until people started pointing them out. It always is just a minority who finds these things offensive and they only succeed in getting these things censored because companies start shitting themselves only by the slightest implication of their name and the word racism. In the end nothing of interest was lost and no harm was done.
You keep calling people ignorant but what ignorance are you actually referring to? The society these days puts so much emphasis on racism that you have to be a caveman not knowing that it isn’t accepted by the majority. You also have to be the same caveman if you let your view on black people be influenced by a cartoon. The real ignorant ones are the ones intended to read the manga----little kids to whom racism doesn’t exist and won’t start to exist whether black cartoon people who help god have big lips or not.

B · Post by B » Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:41 pm

Holy shit.

Mr. Popo is racist. There is no other way to look at it. Akira Toriyama is not some saint for creating Dragon Ball, and is not exempted from criticism about the portrayal. HOWEVER, it doesn't take much grey matter to figure out the author had no intention of harming anyone. This ridiculous idea that not having a problem with Mr. Popo or any other racist caricature in Dragon Ball makes you a diehard fanboy that's too naive to realize it needs to stop. If YOU'RE offended, that's YOUR fucking problem. Someone lock this ass-backwards retarded thread.