Could Dabura really be as strong as Cell?

[Saiyan-Professor]

But the Daizenshû says Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2...

Where at, I never seen that or heard Herms mention that fact, if it does that settles the matter for me?

[JulieYBM]

But the Daizenshû says Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2...

Where at, I never seen that or heard Herms mention that fact, if it does that settles the matter for me?

I'm just going by what I've heard from Herms.

[Saiyan-Professor]

But the Daizenshû says Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2...

Where at, I never seen that or heard Herms mention that fact, if it does that settles the matter for me?

I'm just going by what I've heard from Herms.

Ahh, well I wish he could provide a quote and on a side issue, this means that Son Gohan could have been a Super Saiyan 2 in Movie #10 when he fought Broli.

[Wojak]

He might not have looked it, but if what the only actual source

Code: Select all

[i]says[/i] he's a SSj2, we might as well go off it.

What source? The manga clearly shows him as a Super Saiya-jin.

In any works based of any work, like the Daizenshuu is based of the manga, there may be some factual errors.
I think that we have to be a little more critical of the Daizenshuu rather than see everything that it notes as correct.

I mean, do you still believe that Nappa was 4000 in the Saiya-jin saga, when he is clearly shown to be able to fight Goku, who was over 8000?
Those errors make me to value the manga's information more, as it shows Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin.

About the Daizenshuu statement: A scan was actually shown in a thread where it was stated that Gohan was a Super Saiya-jin 2 against Dabra.

[Saiyan-Professor]

He might not have looked it, but if what the only actual source

Code: Select all

[i]says[/i] he's a SSj2, we might as well go off it.

What source? The manga clearly shows him as a Super Saiya-jin.

In any works based of any work, like the Daizenshuu is based of the manga, there may be some factual errors.
I think that we have to be a little more critical of the Daizenshuu rather than see everything that it notes as correct.

I mean, do you still believe that Nappa was 4000 in the Saiya-jin saga, when he is clearly shown to be able to fight Goku, who was over 8000?
Those errors make me to value the manga's information more, as it shows Gohan as a Super Saiya-jin.

About the Daizenshuu statement: A scan was actually shown in a thread where it was stated that Gohan was a Super Saiya-jin 2 against Dabra.

Well according to Herms, Toriyama heavily supervised the Daizenshuu and if he allowed the Son Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 in the fight against Dabra regardless of what he illustrated comment to be printed then so be it that is as official as one can get.

[The Tori-bot]

that is as official as one can get.

Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu

[Saiyan-Professor]

that is as official as one can get.

Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu

The creator of Dragonball supervised the Daizenshuu and the S.E.G. so I believe those data books trump the manga and anime.

[The Tori-bot]

that is as official as one can get.

Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu

The creator of Dragonball supervised the Daizenshuu and the S.E.G. so I believe those data books trump the manga and anime.

Creation > Direct adaptation of said creation > Supervision of information relating to said creation

I still faiil to see how a guidebook can "trump" the thing the guidebook is based on...

And, let's not forget, Toriyama neither cares or remembers. Ever.

[Wojak]

Manga > Anime > Daizenshuu

The creator of Dragonball supervised the Daizenshuu and the S.E.G. so I believe those data books trump the manga and anime.

Creation > Direct adaptation of said creation > Supervision of information relating to said creation

I still faiil to see how a guidebook can "trump" the thing the guidebook is based on...

And, let's not forget, Toriyama neither cares or remembers. Ever.

Agreed.
What he probably did was to give some of the notes he did when he was planning the story, or made up stuff when there was information that was needed for completion.

"Heavy Supervision" can easily be confused with:
Toriyama: mkay, tis luks gud to, g2g and take a dump, brb in 2mins, u go ahed.
Editor: Just one thing, was Gohan a SSJ or a SSJ2 against Dabra?
Toriyama: Gohan, whos that? Lulz. Ai discarded him as a charactr, plz. Make sumthin up, or for the lulz, write SSJ2.
Editor: Ok, SSJ2 it is (man he doesn't really care about the series anymore. I can't blame him for having to continue the series for so long after having lost interest in it).

[Saiyan-Professor]

I find it interesting that people will believe the guides except when it speaks against one of their pet beliefs. Everyone jumped for joy when the S.E.G. was introduced and Herms and the other guy (sorry I forgot your username), translated the information. Yet the data for the most part agreed with the Daizenshuu and was conveyed in the exact same mode that is from the mouth of the creator of Dragonball also known as Akira Toriyama. Now why the new guide is acceptable but the Daizenshuu are flawed and created by idiots in some people’s minds.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Was he SSJ2 in the anime? I forget. If so, the Daizenshuu could have been going off of that, since it does try to incorporate anime information too, doesn't it?

He was also Super Saiyan in the anime.

Difference there--is that he had the fierce, Cell Games like face, which resembles his Super Saiyan 2 Kid self. The manga portrayed him to look like a weak chicken.

[Adamant]

Was he SSJ2 in the anime?

Nope. He went SSJ2 against Kibito, though.

[omegacwa]

I thought it was widely excepted that Dabura was about as strong as Perfect Cell, but not Super Perfect Cell. SSJ Goku went toe to toe with Regular Perfect Cell, so I see no reason why a out of shape Gohan(who was way more powerful than Goku during the cell games) couldn't take on a fighter of Perfect Cell caliber, especially considering Dabura had the advantage the whole fight.

[Dayspring]

I find it interesting that people will believe the guides except when it speaks against one of their pet beliefs. Everyone jumped for joy when the S.E.G. was introduced and Herms and the other guy (sorry I forgot your username), translated the information. Yet the data for the most part agreed with the Daizenshuu and was conveyed in the exact same mode that is from the mouth of the creator of Dragonball also known as Akira Toriyama. Now why the new guide is acceptable but the Daizenshuu are flawed and created by idiots in some people’s minds.

Because, to our knowledge, the SEGs don't introduce errors and plotholes. The Daizenshuu was filled with them: Bra has two birth years, Raditz has two different PLs, Dore's bio pic is of a Kanassian... These are all things any factchecker should be able to spot. Just because Toriyama signed off on the daizenshuu doesn't mean they're to be taken as more official than anything he's written. The SEGs are being hugely accepted because they're sections of rehashed daizenshuu info (that doesn't cause problems) as well as sections written by Toriyama himself.

[Wojak]

Well, I can only speak for myself, so here goes.

I find it interesting that people will believe the guides except when it speaks against one of their pet beliefs.

Well, for myself, Gohan being a SSJ is not a pet belief, it's rather a fact.
And it's clear that the Daizenshuu is a good guide, but only to what we don't know.
What we do know is the information in the manga.
And guides are known to have errors.
Even medical books are proof readen and corrected, and they have errors too.
You can't tell me that it's okay to blindly believe anything you read, do you?
The basic reaction to something that doesn't seem correct is critisism and correction.

Everyone jumped for joy when the S.E.G. was introduced and Herms and the other guy (sorry I forgot your username), translated the information.

Or course, the series has been completed for about 20 years now. It's given that people will be happy to find new information to analyze and reflect upon. That doesn't mean that one agrees automatically to everything that has been given.

Yet the data for the most part agreed with the Daizenshuu and was conveyed in the exact same mode that is from the mouth of the creator of Dragonball also known as Akira Toriyama.

That hasn't need to lead to that you fully agree either. If you find incosistencies from what he said, you are free to choose whether his words are right or if the manga is right.
For some of us, the manga is always right, as it's the original work, and even if someone changes facts later, it doesn't have to mean that the manga will change for us.
An example: If Toriyama told in an interview that Krillin is a Saiya-jin, would you believe that?

Now why the new guide is acceptable but the Daizenshuu are flawed and created by idiots in some people’s minds.

That may be because of that people haven't found any flaws with the new guide so far, but that they have with the Daizenshuu?
Also, the interview was directly from Toriyama's mouth.
If the Daizenshuu was entirely worked on and written by Toriyama, maybe people would give it a higher value.

But still, if you don't agree, you don't agree.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I find it interesting that people will believe the guides except when it speaks against one of their pet beliefs. Everyone jumped for joy when the S.E.G. was introduced and Herms and the other guy (sorry I forgot your username), translated the information. Yet the data for the most part agreed with the Daizenshuu and was conveyed in the exact same mode that is from the mouth of the creator of Dragonball also known as Akira Toriyama. Now why the new guide is acceptable but the Daizenshuu are flawed and created by idiots in some people’s minds.

Because, to our knowledge, the SEGs don't introduce errors and plotholes. The Daizenshuu was filled with them: Bra has two birth years, Raditz has two different PLs, Dore's bio pic is of a Kanassian... These are all things any factchecker should be able to spot. Just because Toriyama signed off on the daizenshuu doesn't mean they're to be taken as more official than anything he's written. The SEGs are being hugely accepted because they're sections of rehashed daizenshuu info (that doesn't cause problems) as well as sections written by Toriyama himself.

Nevertheless, does that mean that the Daizenshuu was incorrect about Son Gohan and plus it is not like the manga does not have problems as well.

Well, I can only speak for myself, so here goes.

I find it interesting that people will believe the guides except when it speaks against one of their pet beliefs.

Well, for myself, Gohan being a SSJ is not a pet belief, it's rather a fact.
And it's clear that the Daizenshuu is a good guide, but only to what we don't know.
What we do know is the information in the manga.
And guides are known to have errors.
Even medical books are proof readen and corrected, and they have errors too.
You can't tell me that it's okay to blindly believe anything you read, do you?
The basic reaction to something that doesn't seem correct is critisism and correction.

Everyone jumped for joy when the S.E.G. was introduced and Herms and the other guy (sorry I forgot your username), translated the information.

Or course, the series has been completed for about 20 years now. It's given that people will be happy to find new information to analyze and reflect upon. That doesn't mean that one agrees automatically to everything that has been given.

Yet the data for the most part agreed with the Daizenshuu and was conveyed in the exact same mode that is from the mouth of the creator of Dragonball also known as Akira Toriyama.

That hasn't need to lead to that you fully agree either. If you find incosistencies from what he said, you are free to choose whether his words are right or if the manga is right.
For some of us, the manga is always right, as it's the original work, and even if someone changes facts later, it doesn't have to mean that the manga will change for us.
An example: If Toriyama told in an interview that Krillin is a Saiya-jin, would you believe that?

Now why the new guide is acceptable but the Daizenshuu are flawed and created by idiots in some people’s minds.

That may be because of that people haven't found any flaws with the new guide so far, but that they have with the Daizenshuu?
Also, the interview was directly from Toriyama's mouth.
If the Daizenshuu was entirely worked on and written by Toriyama, maybe people would give it a higher value.

But still, if you don't agree, you don't agree.

Besides Bra’s birthdates has Herms clarified that the Japanese edition contain as many mistakes as many claim. He has shown that what many call mistakes are mistranslations on the part of those posting the material on the internet.

[Onikage725]

I second Wojak. Furthermore... Toriyama supervised the manga (meaning, he wrote the damn thing). So vaguely knowing that he looked over some stuff for the Daizenshuu vs actually drawing and writing the manga... which do you give more weight to? He could have overlooked the number 2 in one instance. The daizenshuu, if you may recall, also tells us Raditz has a PL of 1500 and Saibaimen have a PL of 1200. Yet the manga tells us that A) attacks above 1300 make Raditz fear for his life and B) Saibaimen and Raditz were at the same level. So the Daizenshuu has some differing interpretations from the manga in some cases.

On this issue itself, it's tricky because of Gohan's back and forth performance. However, I would like to point out two things I haven't seen mentioned yet (unless I skimmed past them).

1- Dabura, as a Majin, had an imperative to draw out the fight. So he may have been holding back somewhat.

2- Goku gives Dabura props for being *stronger* during the fight. He initially says he's probably about as strong as Cell, and later comments that he's stronger than he thought.

3- Assuming that Gohan fought Dabura at SSJ, and that at SSJ both he and his father had enough strength to put up a fight against Perfect Cell, Dabura an a physically stronger Gohan could have gone at it exactly as shown in the manga. His supposed "weakness" could be attributed to his lackluster control over his SSJ2 form, whereas in the Cell Games he wielded it with ease.

[Wojak]

Nevertheless, does that mean that the Daizenshuu was incorrect about Son Gohan and plus it is not like the manga does not have problems as well.

About Gohan, yes. Because of that he clearly isn't a Super Saiya-jin 2.
The manga has plot-holes and mistakes too, but it is the source.
It all depends on what you want to rely on.

Besides Bra’s birthdates has Herms clarified that the Japanese edition contain as many mistakes as many claim. He has shown that what many call mistakes are mistranslations on the part of those posting the material on the internet.

There were still some mistakes, though.

I would like to remind that these are my opinions, and also that I don't disrespect you if you go by the Daizenshuu.
But, none of us should bluntly tell the other that the other is wrong.

If you think that he is a SSJ2, fine. But I think differently.

[JulieYBM]

If it's a retcon, it's a retcon supported by the author. It could very well be likely he meant for Gohan to be going all out.

[Onikage725]

We don't know if it's a retcon or a typo or an assumption made by the Daizenshuu author that Toriyama missed. Like Wojak said, I don't mind anyone swearing by that. But by the same token, there is a discrepancy with no clear word from on high about the matter. I doubt Toriyama even remembers what he intended for Gohan at tht moment anyway.

I personally go by what I see in the story itself. The same thing happened when I was talking to some people about Naruto on Wikipedia awhile back. They were restrucuring the jutsu articles alphabetically, and I objected to having Raikiri and Chidori so far apart. I said they were the sme technique, and Raikiri should have mention in the Chidori write up, or a header under it. Because that's what they tell us in the series- as Sasuke prepares it Guy tells us that it is Kakaishi's single unique attack, and that it has the nickname raikiri because Kakashi supposedly once split lightning with it. But apparently a Naruto guide book lists them as two techniques (though the entryon Raikiri lists it as Kakashi's single technique, which in and of itslef contradicts the notion of Chidori as seperate). So one school of thought is that Raikiri is a Chidori2- a new version with more power and control. The other school of thought is that Raikiri is Chidorisimply done byKakashi, who is better at it because it's his own technique (like comparing Chibi Goku's Kamehameha to one of Muten's max power one's- not a different technique, just one being done with more power and skill).