Goku + Gohan = ?

[Dayspring]

The "mystic power-up" is not a transformation.

Agreed. It's no more a transformation than Saichoru's power up is. The only difference is that it needs to be triggered. One could argue that if Gohan went SSJ a second time, he'd become an SSJ (albeit, getting no extra strength from it).

[Onikage725]

I suppose those are good ways of looking at it. Like Dayspring has been pointing out though, the SEG says that Potara fusions "are not the sum of the two people's powers, but rather a multiplication," at least that's how he interprets it. I have no idea exactly how this would work, but if a multiplication is involved in any way it could make Vegetto's base form huge.

I said "or squared" to allow for that :p
That is assuming their bases were around the same level, of course.
But that would still put them well under the level of Gohan Buu in a base form, unless one or both of their bases was near SSJ2 level pre-fusion.

[Dayspring]

I suppose those are good ways of looking at it. Like Dayspring has been pointing out though, the SEG says that Potara fusions "are not the sum of the two people's powers, but rather a multiplication," at least that's how he interprets it. I have no idea exactly how this would work, but if a multiplication is involved in any way it could make Vegetto's base form huge.

I said "or squared" to allow for that :p
That is assuming their bases were around the same level, of course.
But that would still put them well under the level of Gohan Buu in a base form, unless one or both of their bases was near SSJ2 level pre-fusion.

Boo's absorpsions more or less act as additions. If Gotenks-Boo had a PL of 100 Billion, while Gohan was in the 80 Billions, you'd end up with Gohan-Boo being at about 200 Billion tops. Meanwhile if Goku and Vegeta had base PLs in the Millions (which we know they do), potara multiplying one by the other would result in a PL in the Trillions.

[rereboy]

I do not believe the potara act as a multiplyer in the manner you suggest, Dayspring.

I believe the Potara acts by adding the power of the people fused and then multiplying it.

Example with random numbers of power levels and random multiplying factor:
( 80 000 000 + 85 000 000 ) x 100 = 16 500 000 000

If it worked as you suggest it would be:

80 000 000 x 85 000 000 = 6 800 000 000 000 000

That`s the same as having an army of 80 000 000 warriors with a power level of 85 000 000 EACH concentrated in one body. Which is clearly way too much.

How do we know its too much? Simple. Consider the fusion between Trunk and Goten.

Consider they have a power level of one million, each one (which is a small power level compared to the levels of the buu saga).

1 000 000 x 1 000 000 = 1 000 000 000 000

That`s way too much. I don`t think SSJ 3 Goku comes even close and their power levels are not that apart from each other.

We can argue that the nature of the fusions is different (one is potara and the other is not) but besides the fact that the potara doesn`t need the dance or preparations and is permanent, I don`t think they are that different.

If they were and the potara worked the way you said, the accidental fusion of the Kaioshin and his servant would have resulted in a being with tremendous power since they are both in the millions mark.

As for buu, I agree its simply adding the power of one plus the other.

[Dayspring]

What exactly do you mean by "too much?" Vegetto became insanely powerful. Multiplying one by the other implies that Vegetto would become insanely powerful. Not exactly seeing a problem here. And no evidence that Fusion Dance is even remotely similar; there's just a lot of implications that it's significantly weaker.

[rereboy]

Consider the kaioshin and his servant at 85 000 000 (85 million) and 80 000 000 (80 million), which is not very much since the kaioshin are suppose to be able to kill Freeza with one move.

If the Potara worked as you say, then:

85 000 000 x 80 000 000 = 6 800 000 000 000 000.


Now consider Goku at having 1 000 000 000 (1 billion) at his base form (which maybe its too much). As we know SSJ works as a multiplyer. SSJ1 multiplies by 50 right?
I forgot how much SSJ 3 multiplies by, but lets say it multiplies by 10 000 (which maybe its too much).

Then Goku at SSJ3 would be equal to 1 000 000 000 x 10 000 = 10 000 000 000 000

6 800 000 000 000 000 > 10 000 000 000 000

Kaioshin fused with his servant would still be way more powerfull (it would still be 680 times stronger than Goku. As in he would have the power of 680 warriors with a power level of 10 000 000 000 000 each ). Its insane how powerfull a fusion would be, even with not so strong characters if it worked that way. Doesn`t make sense to me.

Now, if it works like this:

(85 000 000 + 80 000 000) x Z = Y

That makes more sense to me.

While Buu is just: (85 000 000 + 80 000 000)

[Dayspring]

You're still assuming SSJ3 Goku is the strongest, though. He's really, really not. If he were, he would never have fused.

As for your Kibitoshin example, ok. So he's got PLs in the trillions. So what? That just means that Boo (+ Piccolo + SSJ3 Gotenks) is in the higher trillions/quadrillions/quintillions/whatever. Kibitoshin could even be stronger than Ultimate Gohan for all we know; he just needs to be weaker than Boo.

Meanwhile, since Goku and Vegeta are both greatly more powerful than Kaioshin and Kibito, their fusion would be stronger than Ultimate Boo. Even if you argue that base Goku and Vegeta aren't, note that the first thing Vegetto did was go SSJ.

I get where you're coming from, but synergy still has addition in it. The SEG says it's not addition.

[Wojak]

Rou Kaioshin even said "those that were of no use before, will not become that now" or something to Kibitoshin, when he wanted to help in the battle against Buu.

[Dayspring]

Rou Kaioshin even said "those that were of no use before, will not become that now" or something to Kibitoshin, when he wanted to help in the battle against Buu.

Which makes sense. If Fusion Dance is indeed the same as Potara, then one could easily argue that Kibitoshin is weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks. If that were the case, how could he ever hope to be of any use against Boo (+Piccolo +SSJ3 Gotenks)?

[Onikage725]

I get what you're saying Dayspring, and see how I fudged my own fake math.

But what I was getting at was meant to explain anime Vegetto. As far as manga Vegetto, I have no complaints. Afterall, he immediatley juiced himself up 50-fold from *whatever* he was at to start. So of course he'd be a Buu-stomping machine. My personal fan theory for anime Vegetto is basically that the earrings allow them to touch some of their potential without needing to alter their bodies (and SSJ is just for show, or to tap into just a little extra). Hence why base Vegetto made merry sport of Gohan-Buu.

[rereboy]

You're still assuming SSJ3 Goku is the strongest, though. He's really, really not. If he were, he would never have fused.

As for your Kibitoshin example, ok. So he's got PLs in the trillions. So what? That just means that Boo (+ Piccolo + SSJ3 Gotenks) is in the higher trillions/quadrillions/quintillions/whatever. Kibitoshin could even be stronger than Ultimate Gohan for all we know; he just needs to be weaker than Boo.

Meanwhile, since Goku and Vegeta are both greatly more powerful than Kaioshin and Kibito, their fusion would be stronger than Ultimate Boo. Even if you argue that base Goku and Vegeta aren't, note that the first thing Vegetto did was go SSJ.

I get where you're coming from, but synergy still has addition in it. The SEG says it's not addition.

I'm not trying to assume that SSJ 3 Goku is the strongest character.

I`m just trying to say that if the potara worked that way, Kibitoshin would be stronger than SSJ 3 Goku.

And if he was stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, than the final fight against Kid Buu doesn´t make any sense. Why wouldn`t Kibitoshin try to fight Kid Buu and why would he leave the fight to a SSJ 3 Goku and a SSJ 2 Vegeta?

I get what you are trying to say regarding super buu and his power ups, but it doesn`t make any sense regarding Kid buu.

The way I said it works is still multiplying. But its a multiplyer of both fighters power by a certain amount (much like SSJ works).

[Senzu_Bean]

And if he was stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, than the final fight against Kid Buu doesn´t make any sense. Why wouldn`t Kibitoshin try to fight Kid Buu and leave the fight to a SSJ 3 Goku and a SSJ 2 Vegeta?

Same reason why Gotenks or Gohan did not show up- Vegeta and Goku wanted people of Earth to handle Majin Buu.

[rereboy]

And if he was stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, than the final fight against Kid Buu doesn´t make any sense. Why wouldn`t Kibitoshin try to fight Kid Buu and leave the fight to a SSJ 3 Goku and a SSJ 2 Vegeta?

Same reason why Gotenks or Gohan did not show up- Vegeta and Goku wanted people of Earth to handle Majin Buu.

That doesn`t work either because they were dead when they started fighting kid buu and they were only brought back to life when Vegeta came up with that plan and asked to bring Earth back.

Kibitoshin was right there before they started to fight, in the kaioshin planet. Why would he leave? It was his responsability as a God to defeat Buu. Buu killed his fellow Gods. If he had power why would he not even try?

The only logical answer is that Goku and Vegeta could do a better job than him without fusing.

Thus my opinion regarding how the potara works.

[Wojak]

The only logical answer is that Goku and Vegeta could do a better job than him without fusing.

That's not the only logical answer.

Rou Kaioshin and Kibitoshin were the only Gods left. Someone had to take care of the order if Goku and Vegeta succeded.
Rou Kaioshin had only a 1000 years left to live.
Kibitoshin was the only one to watch over things later on, and having him dead was not a good idea.
With his abilities, he would be a better help as a bystander, like with his teleportation of Dende to Namek.
Plus, he never was a fighter anyways.
Goku and Vegeta would make a better job because of that they were great fighters, the only ones left.
Kaioshin and Kibito were in awe of their power.

[rereboy]

The only logical answer is that Goku and Vegeta could do a better job than him without fusing.

That's not the only logical answer.

Rou Kaioshin and Kibitoshin were the only Gods left. Someone had to take care of the order if Goku and Vegeta succeded.
Rou Kaioshin had only a 1000 years left to live.
Kibitoshin was the only one to watch over things later on, and having him dead was not a good idea.
With his abilities, he would be a better help as a bystander, like with his teleportation of Dende to Namek.
Plus, he never was a fighter anyways.
Goku and Vegeta would make a better job because of that they were great fighters, the only ones left.
Kaioshin and Kibito were in awe of their power.

If buu wasn`t stopped, the cosmos would be destroyed.

The vital task of the Kaioshins is to protect the Cosmos.

Leaving that job for someone less powerfull than you doesnt make sense at all to me.

Its just my opinion.

(And being in awe with their power implies that they are stronger than him).

[Dayspring]

And if he was stronger than SSJ 3 Goku, than the final fight against Kid Buu doesn´t make any sense. Why wouldn`t Kibitoshin try to fight Kid Buu and leave the fight to a SSJ 3 Goku and a SSJ 2 Vegeta?

Same reason why Gotenks or Gohan did not show up- Vegeta and Goku wanted people of Earth to handle Majin Buu.

That doesn`t work either because they were dead when they started fighting kid buu and they were only brought back to life when Vegeta came up with that plan and asked to bring Earth back.

Kibitoshin was right there before they started to fight, in the kaioshin planet. Why would he leave? It was his responsability as a God to defeat Buu. Buu killed his fellow Gods. If he had power why would he not even try?

The only logical answer is that Goku and Vegeta could do a better job than him without fusing.

Thus my opinion regarding how the potara works.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I guess plothole here. For an in-story answer, Goku implied he (as SSJ3) could do it and didn't want Kibitoshin's help. By the time things went to shit, maybe Kibitoshin was just too caught up in watching the action to remember he could have saved the day.

[shinaobi]

Rereboy, being in awe of someone's power implies you're much weaker than they are.

For that argument, I'd say that Kibito + Kaioshin simply wouldn't be as powerful as a Gohan + Goku, while possibly being a bit more powerful than Goku, simply guessing off the fact that Kibito half pood his pants when Gohan hit SSJ2; unless I'm mistaken the two are implied to be roughly similar in level. Therefore, I apply the logic of Freeza<Kaioshin,Kibito,<Gohan.

Since Gohan pre-Mystic stuff was weaker than Vegeta and Vegeta was weaker than Goku, and all of the aforementioned came with power-increasing transformations not present in the deities, I just don't fathom a non-transforming Kibitoshin being able to do much more than match Goku, maybe at best slightly outperforming due to the fact that stamina wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Assuming I'm dumb and enough of my postulating is wrong to make Kibitoshin>Goku, I can say that Kibitoshin wouldn't end up fighting anyhow, since neither had a particularly dominating personality; Goku probably could have talked him into leaving(and he did).

[Onikage725]

Not to throw personal bias in the mix, but Gohan and Vegeta's pre-magical enhancement levels are debatable. Gohan was out of shape and non-motivated, and aside from a brief face-off with Kibito was only in his FPSSJ state. And then theres the whole Vegeta as SSJ2 or not thing- basically did he think he was stronger because Gohan wasn't utilizing SSJ2's full potential, or did he think he was stronger because Gohan was half-assing at SSJ and he was a stronger SSJ due to actually keeping up his training? There are arguments for both. I dunno if that messes with anyone's charts for this debate, since fusion happened well after all that anyway.

[Wojak]

I would like to add that for Kaioshin and Kibito, Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were monsters compared to them in power.
They were scared of Yakon, Pui Pui and Dabra.
Goku and the gang were much stronger than them.

They fused, and got that power, if not a little bit more.
With their above average z-senshi power-analytical skills, they thought they could help in the battle.

Little did they know that they weren't stronger than anyone else in the fight that was to occur, and that they once again underestimated/overestimated other fighters/their power.

Take any statements of power coming from someone that once was the Kaioshin we know with a grain of salt.
'Cus we know he didn't know anything, even when presented with people's power.

[rereboy]

Same reason why Gotenks or Gohan did not show up- Vegeta and Goku wanted people of Earth to handle Majin Buu.

That doesn`t work either because they were dead when they started fighting kid buu and they were only brought back to life when Vegeta came up with that plan and asked to bring Earth back.

Kibitoshin was right there before they started to fight, in the kaioshin planet. Why would he leave? It was his responsability as a God to defeat Buu. Buu killed his fellow Gods. If he had power why would he not even try?

The only logical answer is that Goku and Vegeta could do a better job than him without fusing.

Thus my opinion regarding how the potara works.

Oh, I see what you mean now. I guess plothole here. For an in-story answer, Goku implied he (as SSJ3) could do it and didn't want Kibitoshin's help. By the time things went to shit, maybe Kibitoshin was just too caught up in watching the action to remember he could have saved the day.

OR the potara doesn`t work exactily by multiplying the power of one times the other.

To me it all comes down to which makes more sense. To me, personally, it makes more sense the potara issue. But of course what you suggest is indeed possible.

I would like to add that for Kaioshin and Kibito, Goku, Vegeta and Gohan were monsters compared to them in power.
They were scared of Yakon, Pui Pui and Dabra.
Goku and the gang were much stronger than them.

They fused, and got that power, if not a little bit more.
With their above average z-senshi power-analytical skills, they thought they could help in the battle.

Little did they know that they weren't stronger than anyone else in the fight that was to occur, and that they once again underestimated/overestimated other fighters/their power.

Take any statements of power coming from someone that once was the Kaioshin we know with a grain of salt.
'Cus we know he didn't know anything, even when presented with people's power.

The were monsters compared to them before they fused.

If the potara work as suggested, then, at the very lest they would be as powerfull as SSJ 3 Goku (probably more), and while Kibitoshin analysing skills are garbage, Goku`s aren`t.

If he became as powerfull or more than Goku, Goku would notice and I seriously doubt he would ask Kibitoshin to leave if that was the case when the time came to fight kid buu. Vegeta maybe, Goku no. As we had seen before, Goku had no issues leaving the buu problem to people that could do a better or similar job than him (mystic Gohan and Gotrunks). Why would he start now?

I accept all your opinions and they are all possible, but they make less sense to me than what I suggested.