Tien > Freeza?

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:36 pm

Weren`t zenkais supposed to still exist after namek but became negligeable once SSJ is introduced?

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:22 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
rereboy wrote:You think that Goku trained for 3 years for the androids and almost 2 years before that in space and didn`t improve at all compared to himself on namek?
Yeah, because almost all his power after fighting Vegeta came from the near-death powerup, which goes away after Super Saiyan.
That doesn't mean his Super Saiyan form can't get stronger.

Uhh...Super Saiyan is always fifty times the normal form.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:28 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Amigo Ten wrote:
Rocketman wrote: Yeah, because almost all his power after fighting Vegeta came from the near-death powerup, which goes away after Super Saiyan.
That doesn't mean his Super Saiyan form can't get stronger.
Uhh...Super Saiyan is always fifty times the normal form.

Then the idea of USSJ and Super Saiyan 2 came to his mind.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:30 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Amigo Ten wrote:
Rocketman wrote: Yeah, because almost all his power after fighting Vegeta came from the near-death powerup, which goes away after Super Saiyan.
That doesn't mean his Super Saiyan form can't get stronger.
Uhh...Super Saiyan is always fifty times the normal form.

I disagree. Either way they still all got stronger.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:49 pm

Well, I think that, while basic SSJ is always x50, by training they can still improve their base form strength, speed, etc. Which then gets the x50 power up in SSJ. Get it? Its just like kaioken, but without its well known disadvantages. Its a "genetic kaioken" that only sayans can do.

And thats what Goku did during his training for the androids.

However he soon realize that it wasn`t enough. So he came up with the idea of trying to also improve the transformation itself, to become stronger than a SSJ.

So he went to the room of spirit and time and there, along with the other sayans, he tried and succeeded in improving the transformation itself besides improving his basic strength, speed and etc.

Btw, USSJ, USSJ2 and FPSSJ are all between x50 and x100 power increase (x100 is SSJ2).

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:04 pm

I just think the forms always get stronger when trained, without being directly related that much. When #19 and #20 showed, Goku's SSJ could have been a 60x increase or 70x or whatever, even though his base wouldn't be much stronger.

Don't pay much heed to the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers either.

DragonBalllKaiHD · Post by **DragonBalllKaiHD** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:08 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I just think the forms always get stronger when trained, without being directly related that much. When #19 and #20 showed, Goku's SSJ could have been a 60x increase or 70x or whatever, even though his base wouldn't be much stronger.

Don't pay much heed to the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers either.

No. The SSJ multiplier is always the same, as stated in SEG. Whic means the base form has to be stronger.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:10 pm

DragonBalllKaiHD wrote:
Amigo Ten wrote:I just think the forms always get stronger when trained, without being directly related that much. When #19 and #20 showed, Goku's SSJ could have been a 60x increase or 70x or whatever, even though his base wouldn't be much stronger.

Don't pay much heed to the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers either.
No. The SSJ multiplier is always the same, as stated in SEG.

Do I have to believe what the SEG says?

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:18 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I just think the forms always get stronger when trained, without being directly related that much. When #19 and #20 showed, Goku's SSJ could have been a 60x increase or 70x or whatever, even though his base wouldn't be much stronger.

Don't pay much heed to the SSJ2 and 3 multipliers either.

And it was a increase of 60x or 70x, for example... compared to his previous base power.
What actually changed was the base form.

The SSJ is just a transformation which multiplies your power.

If you try to enhance the transformation itself, the power of the transformation itself, you will get things like USSJ, FPSSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3.

If you try to enhance your basic strength, your basic speed, etc, you just enhance your base power, which then the transformation multiplies.

We get to see this when Goku travelled to Namek. He increased greatly his strength and speed and etc, but he also improved greatly his kaioken technique which also acts just like the SSJ multiplying his power... Just with more disadvantages than the SSJ.

At least this is my opinion.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:22 pm

I just think you can train SSJ in whatever way. It's not a set multiplier that you have to either break through (USSJ, SSJ2, etc) or increase your base power to strengthen.

At least until you hit your limit of course. Then breaking through is your only choice.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:33 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I just think you can train SSJ in whatever way. It's not a set multiplier that you have to either break through (USSJ, SSJ2, etc) or increase your base power to strengthen.

At least until you hit your limit of course. Then breaking through is your only choice.

But FPSSJ (full powered SSJ. Its what Goku was at the Cell games) is supposed to be just that. Training and reaching the limit of that Transformation (SSJ 1). Any more requires a second transformation (SSJ2).

And USSJ and USSJ2 are supposed to be attempts of doing that, of mastering the form, of going beyond.

That`s why I agree with you in saying that the SSJ transformation can be trained.
But when we are talking about the x50 we are talking about just basic SSJ.

Of course we can argue that a SSJ can have a x52 increase and another one can have a x54 increase while other has a x50 increase without any of them having reached USSJ or FPSSJ... But those have those extra multipliers because they already mastered the SSJ form more than the other one. They are walking towards the FPSSJ, like Goku did.

But they are trying to train the transformation itself. Not just their speed or strength...

And Goku, when he trained for the androids, wasn`t trying to train his transformation. He was training his strength, speed, etc. He only thought of doing that when he realized that just trying to increase his strength and speed wouldn`t be enough. Not by a long shot. He had to do both.

But when he fought #19 he just had basic SSJ. Which means a 50x increase or very near that number. As did Vegeta.

And thats also why I consider #20 and #19 to be on Freeza`s level. Goku and Vegeta (since he is stated to be on Goku`s level) are stronger than Goku was in Namek, because their base is stronger, but they managed to put a good fight.

As we all know second form Cell is miles away in power from #20 or #19, and since Tenshinhan was able to hold him off, I can`t help but think that he surpassed Freeza`s power in some point in the series.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:45 pm

Well yeah, that's what I mean. You can make your SSJ form stronger with necessarily making your base form stronger.

As for the initial SSJ transformation always being 50x I dunno. All we know is that's how it was for Goku.

EDIT: Oh, you added to your post after I posted.

I don't think making the SSJ form stronger means necessarily "training the form" or increasing the base power. Just regular training, as an SSJ, could make it stronger, without the base increasing (since they seem to hit base limits).

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:47 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:That doesn't mean his Super Saiyan form can't get stronger.

Stronger how? Piccolo is less than 1% of his Super Saiyan form's strength.

rereboy · Post by **rereboy** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:51 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:Well yeah, that's what I mean. You can make your SSJ form stronger with necessarily making your base form stronger.

As for the initial SSJ transformation always being 50x I dunno. All we know is that's how it was for Goku.

I just don`t think that improving the SSJ form has a direct result in improving your base form. It improves your maximum power when you are in SSJ, but not the base power alone.

The same way, improving your base skills doesn`t improve the power of the transformation, it just makes you overall stronger because SSJ multiplies it.

And so they are separate things but both contribute to making you stronger overall. Its just like kaioken.

JulieYBM · Post by **JulieYBM** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:45 pm

Super Saiyan is commonly accepted as being 50x stronger. Now, there's nothing saying that over time their ability to make the best out of that 50x increase (not to mention their base form's own increase in strength), because that's basically what happened at the Cell Games (by training Gokû and Gohan made the absolute best of that fifty-times increase as possible, as opposed to previously where their ki was constantly being burned up).

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:01 pm

I only saw the 50x as applying to Goku's first transformation. After that they train, and then it's anyone's guess.

I think they can increase their power in Super Saiyan just through regular training as Super Saiyans. Not necessarily increasing base power, since that appears to cap off at a point, and not necessarily training the efficiency of the form either, like Goku and Gohan did in the RoSaT. Just regular training that makes them stronger. Of course training for energy efficiency and stuff is still an option. It's just not necessary to do that, or to make your base form stronger, if you want to increase your SSJ power.

Personally I think they hit limits in all their forms based on age. They'll reach a point where they can no longer get big increases just by training hard, after that all they can do is wait and get stronger over time by keeping up with regular training. Same with all forms, and obviously it'd be different limits for each individual. Sort of a growth limit, let's say.

Vegeta appears to hit his base growth limit while trying to achieve Super Saiyan. Goku and Gohan hit their SSJ growth limits while in the RoSaT. It's possible Vegeta hit his SSJ2 growth limit during the 7 years leading up to the Buu saga. Or he simply realized that his limits would always keep him behind Goku.

It's also possible that characters have an absolute limit, which, if they ever reached it, means that that's it. That's as far as they can ever possibly go. I never really decided for myself if I agree with this or not, although I suppose I would since I like think that Goku was unique in that he had no absolute limit. His growth limit would be lower than Gohan's, but then Gohan would have an absolute limit and Goku wouldn't. So for example, if Gohan had hit his absolute limit when the Old Kai powered him up, then that's the strongest he could ever possibly get. But, Goku could still surpass that with time and training because he has no absolute limit.

Why I like to think Goku uniquely has no absolute limit is just personal preference really. I like the idea. It's all pretty loose and wishy-washy, but I'm not trying to prove anything. That's just my take on pretty much the whole power/limit thing.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:27 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I only saw the 50x as applying to Goku's first transformation. After that they train, and then it's anyone's guess.

I used to think this same way, but ended up switching to the 'it's always x50' way of thinking after analyzing it more deeply than a sane person would. I can't even remember my final reasoning any more. But one point I should probably make is that Toriyama likes simple multipliers.

Take Oozaru for instance. Always x10. There's no real reason for Super Saiyajin to be different. Kaioken is flexible, but to make up for that, SSJ has a ton of other forms itself.

But hey, it's not like thinking about it a different way makes a difference, if it still fits the story.

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:35 pm

I just never went along with the "always 50x increase" because it's blatantly obvious that it gets larger throughout the Cell saga, while it's also implied the base forms hit a limit.

I just go with no set multipliers rather than picking a simple one. Much less confusing. Toriyama may have had a number in his head, but numbers are rarely consistent in DB, so the less I have to deal with them the better I say.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:16 pm

Amigo Ten wrote:I just never went along with the "always 50x increase" because it's blatantly obvious that it gets larger throughout the Cell saga, while it's also implied the base forms hit a limit.

I just go with no set multipliers rather than picking a simple one. Much less confusing. Toriyama may have had a number in his head, but numbers are rarely consistent in DB, so the less I have to deal with them the better I say.

If the base forms hit a limit, why is Goku still training his in the Buu saga?

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:19 pm

Bussani wrote:
Amigo Ten wrote:I just never went along with the "always 50x increase" because it's blatantly obvious that it gets larger throughout the Cell saga, while it's also implied the base forms hit a limit.

I just go with no set multipliers rather than picking a simple one. Much less confusing. Toriyama may have had a number in his head, but numbers are rarely consistent in DB, so the less I have to deal with them the better I say.
If the base forms hit a limit, why is Goku still training his in the Buu saga?

Like I said in my long post, they don't hit an absolute limit (or at least hadn't hit it yet), they just have a growth limit.