Gogeta or Vegetto

[Bussani]

Sorry, I guess Vegetto or Gogeta was a stupid question. Gogeta just looken so powerful, and defeated Janemba so easily. Plus, when Vegetto was fighting Buu while he was 'Super Vegetto', Vegetto got Buu mad so Buu made the sky really cloudy, and Vegetto tried to stop him but there was like a force field or something, so Vegetto had to actually try to get past it.

I'm pretty sure that was only in filler. In the manga, Vegetto only lasted a couple of chapters, tops, and the whole time was him just beating the snot out of Buu with no resistance.

Edit: Well, unless you count being turned into candy as resistance, and even then Candy Vegetto was winning.

[goku the krump dancer]

Can't we just say that Bulma or a Blacksmith made the sword for Mirai? Just because they showed Future Trunks flash backs during the credits could more or less be a small tribute to him not just saying "ok thats how he got the sword".

[Cold Skin]

If we don't consider the question about what is canon or not, the question of who's the most powerful is complicated.

Given what the Ancestral Kaio Shin says, Vegetto is surely more powerful than Gogeta when it comes to power itself (the anime version being less impressive though because of that time he seems to make efforts, they shouldn't have done that when the author's objective was specifically that Vegetto outclassed Boo to the point of NEVER having any trouble with him... even as a candy!! But I don't consider the anime version as being the real story but merely some free adaptation)

Now, the thing is also that they seem to have opposite behaviors which could possibly influence the end of a battle: Vegetto will likely play and mock his enemy, when Gogeta will go for a quick ending, he's not here to play, just to quickly end this in a few seconds if possible.
It's the kind of difference that could make him victorious when you think about Yi Shenron: SS4 Gogeta has for some reason that playful, mocking behavior of Vegetto and it turns up against him, while the Gogeta of the movie would have gone full power right away and destroyed him immediately (if he had the power to do so that is).

So if we only base ourselves on power itself, Vegetto is surely the winner (it is stated in the manga as said above). But if we take in account the kind of behavior, Gogeta might have a better one for victory. So in the end, it's hard to say who would be more inclined to win a battle against a powerful foe.

[Rory]

I'm amazed this thread is still going (3 pages??), it's a pretty open and shut case.
Vegetto is stronger. The old Kaioshin himself said that it's a stronger fusion.
/thread.

[Bussani]

(the anime version being less impressive though because of that time he seems to make efforts, they shouldn't have done that when the author's objective was specifically that Vegetto outclassed Boo to the point of NEVER having any trouble with him... even as a candy!! But I don't consider the anime version as being the real story but merely some free adaptation)

I think it's the other way around. The anime version makes him even more impressive by making him powerful enough to kick Buu around before even becoming a Super Saiyan. I don't really remember him struggling in the anime. Even when Buu started ripping holes in space, he just smacked him.

[goku the krump dancer]

I'm amazed this thread is still going (3 pages??), it's a pretty open and shut case.
Vegetto is stronger. The old Kaioshin himself said that it's a stronger fusion.
/thread.

Its a stronger fusion method it doesn't lead to a more powerful being, in the manga old Kai called Supreme Kai stupid for claiming that he didnt know the Potara were so powerful. He then correceted him by saying that the power came from both Goku and Vegeta,who he then called two of the greatest masters of both the living and the dead.

So Gogeta and Vegetto are equal.

[Bussani]

I'm amazed this thread is still going (3 pages??), it's a pretty open and shut case.
Vegetto is stronger. The old Kaioshin himself said that it's a stronger fusion.
/thread.

Its a stronger fusion method it doesn't lead to a more powerful being, in the manga old Kai called Supreme Kai stupid for claiming that he didnt know the Potara were so powerful. He then correceted him by saying that the power came from both Goku and Vegeta,who he then called two of the greatest masters of both the living and the dead.

So Gogeta and Vegetto are equal.

You're right that he implies that Vegetto's power is due to Goku and Vegeta, specifically, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Potara isn't a more powerful method of fusion. I just took it as meaning that not everyone who fuses using Potara would get such good results.

He still says "but it'll work even better than fusion," a long time before he tells them that it's permanent or anything like that, which could imply that Potara fusions produce better results.

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, the difference between Vegetto and Gotenks seems to be far more dramatic than the difference between Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks. Even with SSJ3 at his disposal, Gotenks is still a lot weaker than Vegetto. This could be a result of the way fusion multiplies the powers, I suppose, but who knows?

[goku the krump dancer]

I'm amazed this thread is still going (3 pages??), it's a pretty open and shut case.
Vegetto is stronger. The old Kaioshin himself said that it's a stronger fusion.
/thread.

Its a stronger fusion method it doesn't lead to a more powerful being, in the manga old Kai called Supreme Kai stupid for claiming that he didnt know the Potara were so powerful. He then correceted him by saying that the power came from both Goku and Vegeta,who he then called two of the greatest masters of both the living and the dead.

So Gogeta and Vegetto are equal.

You're right that he implies that Vegetto's power is due to Goku and Vegeta, specifically, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Potara isn't a more powerful method of fusion. I just took it as meaning that not everyone who fuses using Potara would get such good results.

He still says "but it'll work even better than fusion," a long time before he tells them that it's permanent or anything like that, which could imply that Potara fusions produce better results.

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, the difference between Vegetto and Gotenks seems to be far more dramatic than the difference between Goku/Vegeta and Goten/Trunks. Even with SSJ3 at his disposal, Gotenks is still a lot weaker than Vegetto. This could be a result of the way fusion multiplies the powers, I suppose, but who knows?

Maybe he was referring to the fact that it doesnt require any practice, or that the users dont have to be equal in power size etc. Vegetto is a lot stringer than ssj3 gotenks simply because Goku and Vegeta are leagues above Goten and Trunks, not to mention that he has ssj2 and 3 in his back pocket as well. Trunks and Goten are only good enough for freeza, and at their very max probably #s 19 and 20. Goku at his max was stated to be able to kill kid buu and Vegeta at his max maybe equal to super buu...

[Amigo Ten]

So you'd think a Super Saiyan 3 Goten or Trunks would be weaker than Super Saiyan Goku or Vegeta?

And isn't the line "The result is even greater than fusion!"? Why would that mean anything other than what it says?

EDIT

Goku at his max was stated to be able to kill kid buu and Vegeta at his max maybe equal to super buu...

What?

[Bussani]

And isn't the line "The result is even greater than fusion!"? Why would that mean anything other than what it says?

In the Viz version the line is; "You'll combine into one warrior. Just like fusion. But it'll work even better!" It's a bit of a stretch to say that he was referring to practice being unnecessary or equal powers.

Here's the Daizenshuu entry, translated by Kanzentai.

06 ~ Potara
The much-valued treasure of the Kaioshin. If two people take one each and fit it on their respective ears, one on the left and one on the right, in an instant they will unite together and power up. The principle is the same as the Fusion technique, but the effect is greater than Fusion. Furthermore, since this union cannot be cancelled, it doesn't have the weakness of running out of time and the two returning to normal. This union is only removed inside the body of Majin Buu.

Makes me think that the Japanese line in the manga is what you say, Amigo Ten.

[goku the krump dancer]

So you'd think a Super Saiyan 3 Goten or Trunks would be weaker than Super Saiyan Goku or Vegeta?

And isn't the line "The result is even greater than fusion!"? Why would that mean anything other than what it says?

EDIT

Goku at his max was stated to be able to kill kid buu and Vegeta at his max maybe equal to super buu...

What?

I was just trying to explain why whoever said the gap between Gotenks and Vegetto was or is larger than the gap between goten/trunks and Goku/Vegeta.. ok scratch Majin Buu lets say vegata's max is enough to swat sp Cell and ssj2 teen Gohan. Is there a way that I can read translated daizenshuu?

[Bussani]

Is there a way that I can read translated daizenshuu?

Yeah, some of it. There was a link hidden in my post.

http://www.kanzentai.com/daiz04.php?id=tech

Let's see though... We know that even after their training, Goten and Trunks were still below Piccolo, who should be below Goku and Vegeta. But even before that they were all strong enough to fight 18 decently, at least, and both of them even caught Gohan and Vegeta off guard at first. Goku and Vegeta are certainly much stronger than them, but...

Goten + Trunks = Gotenks.
SSJ3 Gotenks = Gotenks x400 (going by the numbers given in the Super Exciting Guide)

Vegeta + Kakarotto = Vegetto
SSJ1 Vegetto = Vegetto x50

And yet, the difference in power is so great that Vegetto kicked around Buu even though he had Goten, Trunks, Piccolo, and a Gohan who was apparently slightly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks adding to his strength. The difference is immense, especially when you keep in mind that Vegetto only went as high as SSJ1.

Like I said, it could just be the way fusion multiplies power, rather than just adding two people together, but the 'the result is even greater than fusion' comment seems pretty clear.

[Amigo Ten]

We know that even after their training, Goten and Trunks were still below Piccolo

How do we know that?

[Bussani]

We know that even after their training, Goten and Trunks were still below Piccolo

How do we know that?

When their fusion wore off inside Buu, Piccolo became the dominant absorption. Maybe it's just fan speculation that this means Piccolo was stronger. I can't remember now.

[Amigo Ten]

We know that even after their training, Goten and Trunks were still below Piccolo

How do we know that?

When their fusion wore off inside Buu, Piccolo became the dominant absorption. Maybe it's just fan speculation that this means Piccolo was stronger. I can't remember now.

It might just be Piccolo's nature or something. The South Kai was stronger than the... main fat one, whatever his name was, right? But the fat one affected him more.

I've always thought Goten and Trunks were about as strong as Piccolo before their training.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Okay, I'm going to try to explain this as clear as possibal. Lets say Movie 13 took place in 770AD (not saying it happened in 770AD, jut giving an example). Trunks from both timelines passed 770AD at one point. In both timelines, Trunks got Tapion's sword, but he just got it in different ways. In Movie 13, Tapion wanted someone to kill kim so Hyruddegarn would dissapear, or die. In Future Trunk's timeline (we'll call it timeline B), someone probally killed Tapion to kill Hyruddegarn. Then, the person who killed Tapion in Timeline B, (probally Gohan because he was the only Z-Fighter left) probally wanted to give Trunks the sword. In Timeline A, nobody killed Tapion because Goku stopped him because he was still alive in that timeline. Then, alive Tapion gave Trunks the sword. In Timeline B, did Trunks still have some envolvement with Tapion? In Timeline B, was Trunks as intrested in Tapion as Timeline A, so Gohan decided Trunks would be the most appropiete person to give the sword to? Nobody will know. But it could've happened in Future Trunk's timeline too, just in a different way. Besides, after Trunks recieved the sword, why did they start showing images of Future Trunks using his sword! Just use your immagination of how it could've happened, and not how it couldn't happen.

I suppose it's not entirely impossible for Tapion to have shown up in Trunks' timeline as well as the "prime" one. Though the circumstances and events that would unravel are up to anyone's imagination.

DBZ Movie 13 tries to explain that this is how Future Trunks got his sword. But this is impossible for obvious reasons the majority of this forum already knows, and which you should learn to accept, Ultimate DBZ. DBZ movies are not canon and are completely unconnected to the manga, considering they are not the original works of Toriyama and unless Toriyama has come out and said, "Yes, Future Trunks got his sword from Tapion and Hirudegarn was defeated by Super Saiyan 3 Goku (who, by the way, is DEAD)", then the events of Movie 13 did not occur in Future Trunks' timeline and this is not how Trunks got his sword. It is pointless to speculate how Future Trunks got his sword because there are many theories that may or may not be true, but have never been confirmed, and no-one will ever know how Future Trunks got his sword unless Toriyama says it himself.

On the topic, Elder Kaioshin states the Potara Fusion is superior to the Fusion Dance, therefore Vegetto is stronger than Gogeta (since the implication is that in Movie 12, Goku & Vegeta are as strong as they are in the canon timeline of Majin Boo).

[piccolo-san785]

I'd go with Gogeta just because he looks cooler

[diablo2121]

Elder Kai never explicitly said that potara was more powerful than the fusion dance. It can be interpreted that if one were to pick one, potara is the "better" of the two since its effects are permanent. Those doing the dance have only 30 minutes, and they must wait afterwards before fusing again. Also, if they mess up the dance, they are at an even larger disadvantage and forced to survive for 30 minutes before having to forgo the long wait as well.

Looking at the enemies they respectively fought is irrelevant as well since Gogeta and Janemba not being created by AT causes obvious continuity issues. Sure, Vegito had no trouble with Buu who was a powerful, tireless, healing machine. Gogeta had no trouble dealing with a powerful cross-dimensional monster either. You've seen what Janemba can do with space-time in battle. I would actually not be sure who would win Buu or Janemba. They both have very strong advantages over the other. One thing is for sure, they are both more powerful than SSJ3 Goku.

Like someone else said, Gogeta was very direct in his approach. He had to have been in existence no longer than 2 or so minutes before destroying something that can twist dimensions. Vegito was obviously outclassing Buu as well, so everything is purely speculation, but with Gogeta being the more focused, serious of the two, I would give it to him.

[Bussani]

Elder Kai never explicitly said that potara was more powerful than the fusion dance. It can be interpreted that if one were to pick one, potara is the "better" of the two since its effects are permanent. Those doing the dance have only 30 minutes, and they must wait afterwards before fusing again. Also, if they mess up the dance, they are at an even larger disadvantage and forced to survive for 30 minutes before having to forgo the long wait as well.

Again.

06 ~ Potara
The much-valued treasure of the Kaioshin. If two people take one each and fit it on their respective ears, one on the left and one on the right, in an instant they will unite together and power up. The principle is the same as the Fusion technique, but the effect is greater than Fusion. Furthermore, since this union cannot be cancelled, it doesn't have the weakness of running out of time and the two returning to normal. This union is only removed inside the body of Majin Buu.

The Daizenshuu says that the effect is greater than Fusion, in addition to saying that there's no need for the dance and that it has no time limit. It doesn't seem like the line refers to the same thing, at least as far as the Daizenshuu is concerned.

[Travis Touchdown]

I've always looked at Vegetto as standing mountains above Gogeta. It's been stated several times in several sources that Potara is a better form of fusion than the Fustion Dance. Also Potara has that rival bonus; the more intense the rivalry, the greater the outcome.

Plus, this may be speculation on my part, but in Fusion Dance, it's likely that one person will have to lower his/her power to match his/her partner, whereas you don't have to do that for Potara, which to me would be led to believe that automatically gives Potara the greater potential.

And finally, I don't think even SSJ3 Gogeta could stand against Vegetto. That crazy line of thought comes from this;

Goku > Goten
Goku < Super Saiyan Goten
Super Saiyan Goku > Super Saiyan Goten
and so on.

With a power difference like that, I don't see how or why the difference between Gogeta and Gotenks would be any different given it's the same form of Fusion with no talk of things like "rival bonuses" and such. I don't see how or why people would think SSJ Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. So, my belief has always been;
Gogeta > Gotenks
Gogeta < Super Saiyan Gotenks
Super Saiyan Gogeta > Super Saiyan Gotenks
and so on.

So judging from how insanely stronger Vegetto is shown to be than SSJ3 Gotenks, I just never saw even a SSJ3 Gogeta as any form of challenge to Vegetto.