Accuracy of the Dragonbox colors?

[BrollysKin]

IDK I haven't put the Dbox on my calibrated TV so maybe it's just the moniter I'm using.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Gohan doesn't seem to pink in your screen, though.

...did you read my post or are you just kidding around?

-Corey

[bkev]

Well, you did say it might looks different; I just don't know by how much, as I don't have the DBOX... you lucky bastard...

I'm not a tech expert; far from it. Just for the record.

[BrollysKin]

I just don't understand how you (Corey) can say the skin tones stay fairly consistent throughout the series when they start out like they did in the Saiyan saga, and end up looking like that on your Kuro.

[MajinVejitaXV]

I just don't understand how you (Corey) can say the skin tones stay fairly consistent throughout the series when they start out like they did in the Saiyan saga, and end up looking like that on your Kuro.

Shit, I wish it was a KURO. Unlike a certain webmaster, my budget doesn't allow for a newer model (I bought this TV when I was 20 after paying off my first car...I think two models later the KURO panels debuted and I smacked my head, though I love my TV very much).

In any case, let's go with Goku then since that seems to be the point of conflict here:



Note this is by no means any sort of reliable image since it's lossy and taken with a crappy digital camera, but hopefully it gets the point across that a properly calibrated display (that does not push reds, which is something a great deal of televisions have to be calibrated to eliminate since they're configured that way from the factory to emphasize flesh tones) will probably look different than a screen shot appears on your monitor.

-Corey

[ect5150]

Just to compare.

[BrollysKin]

Ok so it is a calibration issue than. I'll assume mine will look like that as I have calibrated mine as well.

Thanks Corey.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Ok so it is a calibration issue than. I'll assume mine will look like that as I have calibrated mine as well.

Thanks Corey.

It's no problem, sorry for the miscommunication. I can't judge FUNi's version since I don't have it in my hands (yet), but it should be an incredible leap over the previous releases when you see it in motion. So...enjoy.

-Corey

[bkev]

Of course Kei forgets to tell us when he shows his VHS rips in action on youtube! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdgn_Nr1XWQ . Whether these are the correct colors or not, I'm inclined to prefer them.

[Son Wukong]

Just to compare.

Aaaahh!!! The blue sky! Why did they have to screw with the sky ?!

[MajinVejitaXV]

Just to compare.

Aaaahh!!! The blue sky! Why did they have to screw with the sky ?!

Dunno, but it's green in Daizenshuu 3 as well

I'd be very interested to see what film stock type Toei used for DragonBall. I would say Fuji Color, which is actually billed per what I'm reading as fairly stable (no 'red film' syndrome, which is where the film loses greens and blues and seems to shift towards the red end of the spectrum). And I would think that by this time Toei would be using a polyester stock (not a tri-acetate). Could be wrong, though.

Lots of interesting things to speculate over. I don't trust a VHS tape with no details (i.e. - kei17 doesn't know the circumstances under which it was recorded, such as the mode or how the tape has been stored, and since magnetic tape tends to significantly degrade after 10 years...and this was almost 20 years ago...) as a perfect record of the original broadcast, nor do I think an ambiguous reply from Toei is a 'case closed' type of statement, but I do think there's a lot to uncover here.

-Corey

[alakazam^]

It looks like the VHS copy has more footage at the top, left and right...

[bkev]

Likely. Even the dragonboxes were slightly zoomed in.

[MajinVejitaXV]

It's actually about the same amount. The DragonBox masters were realigned during the remastering and restoration process. Every version of DragonBall has had some "zooming" though (to frame the cel contents properly within the 4:3 aspect ratio, and in some cases to hide film damage or misalignment before the DragonBox), it's just different amounts. Technically, the DragonBox shows the most picture overall.

-Corey

[Kendamu]

Both the VHS rips and the Dragonbox look fine to me.

[ect5150]

Both the VHS rips and the Dragonbox look fine to me.

I tend to agree with this statement a lot, but I enjoy this conversation far more than others because people are at least bringing the conversation toward something of logical thought as opposed to a lot of other conversation that ensues in any sub vs dub conversations.

So, to pose another question - because I don't remember all arguments for and against at this point - how did the colors change here?

Or, look at it this way. Is the argument either 1) TOEI's film masters had degraded colors and they changed the color of the sky to green, skin tones to red, etc. (intentionally) during the remaster process? Or is it that 2) the colors naturally faded to green & red? The blue sky fades from blue to green-ish, and the normal skin tones fades to red, etc. as the film degrades but the VHS tape may not (for whatever reasons)?

[Metalwario64]

I figured I would point this out again since it seems relevant.

I think it's obvious that the Dragon Box colors are faded, as the whites are quite literally a lavender color:

The lavender color is Vegeta's armor in the Dragon Box, and the gray is the same color, but monochrome. The white is just a pure white to compare with.

Looking at that, I don't see how anybody could argue that these are the 100% original colors we are working with here. It's not just a 1 time thing either, I could do the same thing with the above Goku image:

Just look at the "whites" of his eyes.


But the VHS captures aren't necessarily 100% accurate either:


It does look closer to a gray however, and I feel that it may more accurately represent the original colors overall, as it looks less reddish. I don't know if VHS naturally does this or whatnot, but everything else seems fine about the colors. It looks a bit un-saturated however.

[Daimo-Rukiri]

I'm sorry for confusing you by my bad English. I meant just what SSj_Rambo said. Thank you.

Well, my conclusion derived from this argument and Toei's official answer is the following:

The master films of Dragon Ball series have unfortunately deteriorated and some of them were even impossible for Toei to fix them perfectly in spite of their exertions. Thus, some (though I think most of) episodes like 30 and 31 (Goku vs. Vegeta) on DBOXes have different colours than what they were originally meant to be. Of cource, DBOXes are still the best releases ever sold in the world, however, they are not perfect in all points.

I won!

Dragon Box is the best release for dragon ball and will always be that way, I've done tampering with filters and settings to get as close to the cells as possible. It is indeed somewhat possible to get the original colors back but you will need to use your Picture settings on your HDTV(if you have one).

As for Son Goku in the Vegeta fighter I kinda like the pinkish skin, he did have a red skin tone but I don't remember it being that bright.

If the film was bad wouldn't of been easier just to re-film/animate that specific episode? yes tons and tons of work but hey woulda been cool.

I prefer the Original Colors to DBOX but I can always get them back with my tv thankfully.

[Jon Jon]

Guys, I'm late to the argument, but I can point out a few flaws in a few arguments here.

1) Some of the DVD screen shots are not being done properly. DVDs do not carry the full luma range as a computer monitor, so you need to adjust the colors on those screen shots from DVDs to adjust for this fact (I noticed a few screen shots had not had this done... I'll try to post a comparison in a minute).

I didn't know this. What is the range out of curiosity? So you mean to say that my graphics card will actually add more colors / try to add better shades of colors?

[BrollysKin]

While it is frustrating to me that the colors aren't more akin to the original broadcast, in the end I don't really care anymore. I've been holding out for the dboxes for a long, long time and I just don't want to fight anymore. I'm just gonna get the dbox and be happy with it.