Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza Battle Power Debate

[Dayspring]

I don't like the 3,000,000-base number because I hate the huge number inflation that kicks in when the Freeza fight begins (granted, part of it is Toriyama's fault).

Everything of Z beforehand had been contained between 1,200 and 120,000, with the only large jump being from Recoome and co to Ginyu. And then Freeza shows up and we start nearly five times higher. And then a few minutes later, we're at a million. A few more minutes and it's two mil, then three, then 30, then 60, then we've broken a hundred million, then a hundred and fifty million.

Yeah, that's why I don't mind if people say they're all between 1 and 1.5 million, not as high as 3. Then jump from 3 to over a hundred million is plausible because of how kaioken works and how Freeza was only at 50%, but it doesn't need to jump that high. If Freeza lost strength from getting hit by the genkidama, I could easily see a good argument for 100% Freeza vs SSJ Goku being as low as 22 and 25 mil.

[Nazi Cola]

The only way I could see 100% Freeza below 50,000,000 is when he's cut in half and after SSjin Goku's given him some ki to get off the planet with. Otherwise I'll always see 100% Freeza as at least 100,000,000. It's one of those things where the Daiz and the manga coincide with each other perfectly IMO.

[Savage68]

Freeza's damage from the GD shouldn't dictate how strong he is after powering-up. He reached 100% of his power, not '100% of his power, while factoring in the damage he took prior to reaching his max power'. It doesn't matter if he lost energy since we see him just regain it and subsequently surpass it. Same with Goku. To reach a higher level of power, they would need to first regain what they had in their lower forms.

[Dayspring]

Freeza's damage from the GD shouldn't dictate how strong he is after powering-up. He reached 100% of his power, not '100% of his power, while factoring in the damage he took prior to reaching his max power'. It doesn't matter if he lost energy since we see him just regain it and subsequently surpass it. Same with Goku. To reach a higher level of power, they would need to first regain what they had in their lower forms.

The genkidama works differently from other ki blasts, so I can see it making someone weaker. So if 50% was 50 million and he dropped 5 million, then his 100% would be 95 million. It's not my prefered theory, but I wouldn't call someone wrong for supporting it.

[Amigo Ten]

That wouldn't be 100% though would it? It'd be 95% of his power.

[Nazi Cola]

The way I see it, each time he transforms or powers up, he regains his stamina and maximum power output. For example, whatever damage he takes in his first form, he regains his full health once he transforms to his second form; rinse and repeat. It's the same for his final form, too, IMO. Each time he puts out more power (3% to 50%, etc.), he gets his full health back. So no matter what damage he took before going 100%, he still has full health when he does reach 100%.

[Rocketman]

The way I see it, each time he transforms or powers up, he regains his stamina and maximum power output. For example, whatever damage he takes in his first form, he regains his full health once he transforms to his second form; rinse and repeat. It's the same for his final form, too, IMO. Each time he puts out more power (3% to 50%, etc.), he gets his full health back. So no matter what damage he took before going 100%, he still has full health when he does reach 100%.

He didn't grow his tail back when he went 100%.

[Dayspring]

The way I see it, each time he transforms or powers up, he regains his stamina and maximum power output. For example, whatever damage he takes in his first form, he regains his full health once he transforms to his second form; rinse and repeat. It's the same for his final form, too, IMO. Each time he puts out more power (3% to 50%, etc.), he gets his full health back. So no matter what damage he took before going 100%, he still has full health when he does reach 100%.

He didn't grow his tail back when he went 100%.

Exactly: he got his tail back going from second to third form (or was it third to fourth?) but the wound opened back up once he started using tons of energy. Was it even as late as his going 100%, though? I seem to recall it being when we first see him after getting hit by the genkidama, but don't have the book with me to check.

[Amigo Ten]

It gets cut off when he's in his second form. It doesn't grow back when he transforms into this third form, but Krillin does explicitly say that the damage Piccolo did is gone after the transformation. It grows back for the final form and he loses it again when he's hits with the Spirit Bomb.

[caejones]

You know... the troubling thing isn't really that Freeza is way up there compared to everyone else, so much as that the heroes are exactly at the power that they need to be for the story to progress, whether it makes much sense or not.
Not that there's an obvious way around that... :-/

[Godo]

I think that it was clear that Freeza managed to maintain his full 100% power. But he did manifest signs of damage that he got from Goku nevertheless. I think that's why his ki burned out faster than Goku's (and also he tried to keep up with Goku's pace). Their difference wasn't that great to begin with; wether they were at 12,000,000 and 15,000,000 or 120,000,000 and 150,000,000 doesn't matter in that case. Their difference in power wasn't that great.
In the end, Goku's stamina was a tad bit higher.

It may work like this:

1. Goku's base powerlevel is 3,000,000.
2. He gets beaten and now is only capable of using like one third of his power - 1,000,000.
3. Then he goes SSJ.
4. SSJ looks for Goku's original base powerlevel, which is 3,000,000, and makes his current powerlevel 50 times higher than his original base one.
5. Goku's injuries don't disappear, it's just Goku is too powerful (his body is) to feel these injuries, thus allowing him to use all of his power.
6. When he descends, his injuries should have the same effect as before ascending.

Which basically was my point earlier. This post was nevertheless more elaborate and describes my theory more accurately.

[Nazi Cola]

The way I see it, each time he transforms or powers up, he regains his stamina and maximum power output. For example, whatever damage he takes in his first form, he regains his full health once he transforms to his second form; rinse and repeat. It's the same for his final form, too, IMO. Each time he puts out more power (3% to 50%, etc.), he gets his full health back. So no matter what damage he took before going 100%, he still has full health when he does reach 100%.

He didn't grow his tail back when he went 100%.

Read: Piccolo's statement.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It gets cut off when he's in his second form. It doesn't grow back when he transforms into this third form, but Krillin does explicitly say that the damage Piccolo did is gone after the transformation. It grows back for the final form and he loses it again when he's hits with the Spirit Bomb.

Actually, I think that was Vegeta and Gohan who stated that in the manga. At least, in Viz's version.

[Akira]

There is a key piece of evidence that has somehow gone un-noticed in the Manga that explains the gap in Goku's Power. That is the fact that he never even went anywhere NEAR his max until he fought Freeza. Commander Ginyu and the Ginyu force were shown only a fraction of his power, and twice such is hinted at and stated, but never actually shown.

Evidence 1 - Goku completes his training on the approach to Namek, he turns off the Gravity machine and tests himself under normal Gravity conditions. After such intense training, he states that he is now capable of a Kaioken x10 as his max battle Power. This means two things, first that Kaioken x10 would now be his safety barrier, and that the basic use of the technique, Kaioken x2 would be child's play and sustainable much easier and for longer periods of time.

(Example: Fight with Vegeta, Kaioken x2 was the safety barrier for max power boost in bursts without damaging himself in the process, with Kaioken x3 and x4 being pushing himself past the limits into the realm of self damage. This is shown in that fight. This has changed after the Gravity x100 training, allowing Kaioken x10 to be the safety "In bursts" move for combat, and anything higher the "Danger zone" of self damage if used)

Regardless of your "School of thought" at this point, everyone agrees at least that Goku was at a 90,000 base max (Without use of Kaioken) when he arrived on Namek, with the ability to suppress down to 5,000.

Evidence 2 - Ginyu demands to see Goku's "True Power" so, after sensing Ginyu powered up to max, and still wanting to hold back for the inevitable conflict with Freeza, he merely needs to use the easily sustainable Kaioken x2 to overwhelm Commander Ginyu (Not knowing the jerk had Body switch in mind). 90,000 x 2 = 180,000 Goku which was greater than Ginyu's 120,000 maximum. Goku states that this is his max, but that it is only "The Tip of the iceberg" and that he can "Go even higher if he uses his power in bursts". This is alluding to his ability to use Kaioken x10, which he never gets a chance to do, because Ginyu body snatches him.

90,000 x10 = 900,000 which is Goku's true maximum power, even if only usable in bursts. Well within his "Safety zone" of Kaioken use at this point. His body could already go to 900,000 safely, and who knows what else if he went into the Danger zone of Kaioken use.

So, after the Ginyu fight, after the body switch back, after Healing tank, Goku has a base (Non-Kaioken) battle power of 3,000,000, which is NOT that far fetched. Technically just a little over 3x his previous maximum safely achievable battle power.

Here are the Battle powers for the fight, it makes sense. Freeza said when he was fighting Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan and Krillin in his final form that he was only using 1% of his true power against them.

1,200,000 – Freeza (Final Form 1%)
30,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 25%)
60,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 50%)
84,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 70%)
120,000,000 – Freeza (Final Form 100%)

3,000,000 – Son Goku (Post Healing Tank and Zenkai)
30,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10)
60,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)
150,000,000 – Super Saiyan Son Goku

Freeza tries to tango with Goku (Whom he cannot sense or scan with a scouter) and underestimates him and gets kicked in the face. What Goku's power was suppressed to or how much his weighted shirt brought him down to under 3,000,000 is uncertain, but it is clear that after their warmup, he removes the weighted shirt, and they agree to get serious. Freeza says 25% of his max should be sufficient to beat Goku. Goku uses Kaioken x10 and matches 30,000,000 for 30,000,000, then Freeza gets mad and uses 50% of his max, and Goku still thinks he is bluffing, but has to go well beyond that to Kaioken x20 and again matches Freeza 60,000,000 for 60,000,000. Then, when Freeza realizes that Goku is still putting up a fight he goes to 70% of his max (all stated in the manga) and Goku finally gets wide eyed and realizes that his enemy isn't bluffing, and that's when Goku begins to lose.

So Freeza wounds Piccolo, and kills Krillin, invoking Goku's rage and his Super Saiyan Transformation. Goku then totally dominates 84,000,000 with 150,000,000. When Freeza says he is going to 100%, Goku's saiyan pride has to see what Freeza is really capable of, and he comes to 120,000,000 and ultimately falls short.

The numbers add up, and if you take into consideration Goku's previous true max that went unseen, it all makes perfect sense. That should just about sum it up. This is all manga facts and simple math my friends, Hopefully it clears it up for you once and for all.

[jackjack]

I have no idea where 1% and 25% of Freeza are coming from

[rereboy]

Freeza never stated he was at 70% before Goku transforms.

In fact, the moment when Goku starts to lose is when Freeza states that he will be using 50% of his power. When he says this, Goku initially thinks he is bluffing, but a moment later, just before Freeza attacks, he realizes he is not bluffing, and starts losing hard.

After that, Goku uses Kaioken x20, but that power is matched by Freeza who, the last we heard of, was at 50%.

The only time Freeza states he is at 70% is when he starts fighting SSJ Goku. The most logical assumption is that Freeza began using 70% of his power to resist the giant Genki Dama. That probably saved his life.

Also, Goku never again used weighted clothes after the training with Kaio.

But those numbers can work indeed, even though I wouldn`t think that there was such a large power difference between 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku.

[Rocketman]

1,200,000 – Freeza (Final Form 1%)

Freeza's Second Form is 'over a million'. Two power-ups by Second Form, Piccolo, Third Form, and Vegeta is a little much to cram in there, don't you think?

[Terra-jin]

I'd like to add something to the debate around Goku's final zenkai from 90k to 3M if I may. I think it's somehow an unnatural zenkai. Remember that after Goku's 100G training, a narration box states that Goku has the ability to become a Super Saiyan? On top of that, Goku feels "weirdly calm" given the amount of strong enemies he was about to face. This seems to indicate he was ready to transform.

My argument is this: according to his Saiyan nature, he had now achieved the very pinnacle of power. 90k is the unheard of battle power that warrants the transformation into a Super Saiyan. In other words, Goku should have achieved SSj while at 90k.
However, because of the incredible powers of Ginyu coupled with his body-switching technique, Goku went down even with his SSj-ready powers. This shouldn't have happened: Goku's Saiyan biology didn't know what to do when he was beaten near death at 90,000, so the last Zenkai was kind of a freak accident. A normal SSj should be around 90k x 50 = 4,5M, but because of these things he was at 150M.

[Adamant]

The only time Freeza states he is at 70% is when he starts fighting SSJ Goku. The most logical assumption is that Freeza began using 70% of his power to resist the giant Genki Dama. That probably saved his life.

After his "blow-up-the-planet" attack, Freeza says he's going all out, showing Goku 100% of his power, then immediately launches an attack he says "was 70% of his power". So most likely, in his final form, Freeza is normally capable of using 70% of his absolute max power if he doesn't hold back while attacking. He is then able to focus his ki further, reaching 100% of his potential power for a short while.

So yeah, since he was fearing for his life when attacked by the Genki Dama, he would logically not hold back while trying to repel it, but wouldn't have the time to focus his ki any further either. Ergo, using 70% of his max potential power.

[Akira]

I guess these battle power discussions really ARE pointless. You lay it out, and everyone wants to go on what "They think" or what "They feel" rather than ever back anything up with facts from the manga.

if 120,000,000 is 100%, then yes, 1% is 1,200,000. So even if it somehow doesn't make sense to you, Form 2 "Over a million" is probably between 1,000,001 - 1,060,000 or so, and Form 3 would be somewhere between 1,100,000 - 1,190,000. Simple math, can't be denied, yet it consistently is, I don't get it.

I'm not pulling numbers out of thin air based on what I think, it's simply the way the manga presents it. My opinion has nothing to do with it.

Goku's Zenkai to 3,000,000 isn't that farfetched when you consider he was already comfortably capable of 900,000 prior to that. I presented the evidence stating this, go get out your manga volumes if you think I'm wrong. I'll readily change what I say when I'm proven wrong, it has happened before. I just want accuracy on things for the fanbase as a whole, my ego or being "right" has nothing to do with it.

I'll readily accept manga volume and page references as evidence to be considered, as I will also consider Daizenshuu references, but please refrain from what you "think it ought to be". You're free to have your opinion, but that's all it is without facts, an opinion.