Super Saiyan Goku and Freeza Battle Power Debate

[Dayspring]

I'd like to add something to the debate around Goku's final zenkai from 90k to 3M if I may. I think it's somehow an unnatural zenkai. Remember that after Goku's 100G training, a narration box states that Goku has the ability to become a Super Saiyan? On top of that, Goku feels "weirdly calm" given the amount of strong enemies he was about to face. This seems to indicate he was ready to transform.

My argument is this: according to his Saiyan nature, he had now achieved the very pinnacle of power. 90k is the unheard of battle power that warrants the transformation into a Super Saiyan. In other words, Goku should have achieved SSj while at 90k.
However, because of the incredible powers of Ginyu coupled with his body-switching technique, Goku went down even with his SSj-ready powers. This shouldn't have happened: Goku's Saiyan biology didn't know what to do when he was beaten near death at 90,000, so the last Zenkai was kind of a freak accident. A normal SSj should be around 90k x 50 = 4,5M, but because of these things he was at 150M.

Supporting this is Goku's statement about how he was convinced that prior to the zenkai he had reached his limit. So at 90,000, he wasn't a Super Saiyan yet and could still have zenkais, but any power derived from one would put him in the strength levels of an SSJ. It's possible he ended up getting an SSJ equivalent of a zenkai here.

Regarding 70% Freeza: he becomes more muscular after blocking the Kamehameha of Kaioken x20, as well as after we see him take the Genkidama. Most likely he powered up to block those attacks and just didn't point that out verbally.

[rereboy]

Goku's Zenkai to 3,000,000 isn't that farfetched when you consider he was already comfortably capable of 900,000 prior to that. I presented the evidence stating this, go get out your manga volumes if you think I'm wrong. I'll readily change what I say when I'm proven wrong, it has happened before. I just want accuracy on things for the fanbase as a whole, my ego or being "right" has nothing to do with it.

What? I purposely didn`t comment on this earlier but now I will.
You are comparing his previous base power level multiplied by 10 to his new base power level. That doesn`t make sense. The only thing that makes sense is to compare both base power levels (90 000 and 3 000 000) or both base power levels multiplied by 10 (900 000 and 30 000 000). Only then we are truly able to compare his capabilities and how much he gained with the zenkai. And just how much did he gain? His power became about 33 times larger than it was before.

But that doesn`t really matter.

Look, all numbers after the last one that appeared in the manga (1 million) are non canon. The guides aren`t the "bible" and they are not really from Akira Toriyama. Its OK to disagree with them sometimes when there are reasons to disagree with them, since the manga often is able to support more than one theory. And this last sentence of mine is the key to everything. As long as it can be supported by the manga, its OK.

[jackjack]

I guess these battle power discussions really ARE pointless. You lay it out, and everyone wants to go on what "They think" or what "They feel" rather than ever back anything up with facts from the manga.

Do you mind telling me where in the the manga did you get the 1% Freeza from?

[Dayspring]

I guess these battle power discussions really ARE pointless. You lay it out, and everyone wants to go on what "They think" or what "They feel" rather than ever back anything up with facts from the manga.

Do you mind telling me where in the the manga did you get the 1% Freeza from?

It's not in the manga. Freeza makes some random claim in the dub about only needing (or using?) 1% of his power to defeat everyone.

[jackjack]

Then I don't get it, too. I don't get the purpose of this paragraph below.

if 120,000,000 is 100%, then yes, 1% is 1,200,000. So even if it somehow doesn't make sense to you, Form 2 "Over a million" is probably between 1,000,001 - 1,060,000 or so, and Form 3 would be somewhere between 1,100,000 - 1,190,000. Simple math, can't be denied, yet it consistently is, I don't get it.

[Savage68]

"1%" was a dub line, but for Freeza to be fooling around with base Goku for as long as he did, his power had to have been somewhere close to that percentage. Like 3-4%.

[Akira]

50% Power - DBZ Volume 10, Chapter 118 Title "50% Maximum Power", Page 159 Freeza Quote "I Estimate that if I use just about half of my maximum power I'll be able to turn you into cosmic dust."

70% Power - DBZ Volume 11, Chapter 126, Page 109 Freeza States that the last attack wasn't even quite three quarters of his power. (Which would be 75% for those of you who paid attention in math class) so That would be roughly around 70%. Following that, as Freeza powers up to to 100% he mentions that he us at 85%, then 90%, as he is powering up. 85% being the first number mentioned seems to indicate that it was not too far below that from which he was already at before starting his final bulk up.

I concede that the 1% was Anime. Just for reference, I read through two manga volumes and fast forwarded through about 3 discs of Anime to confirm this. It is not mentioned in the Manga directly, yet it would seem that Freeza was suppressed to somewhere between 1-10% or so when the first start fighting, or why else would Goku be so confident early on that he stood a chance. If that's not enough, you'd have to expect that he was suppressed to somewhere around 1-5% for Vegeta to think he stood a chance after Dende healed him.

Point is, he was suppressed to some extensive extent below 50% early on. If anything, use my 1% just as a reference point number, and that the early fighting is somewhere between there and 25% most likely.

And the point of that one paragraph you pointed out in particular was pointing out WHAT 1% would be. I gladly step aside and say use that as a reference point, and that beyond the Anime, there is no clear evidence stating that he was ever suppressed that low, but merely that 1,200,000 IS 1% of 120,000,000. And also that Goku's powerups along the way are concurrent with Freeza's power increases to try and keep up.

[Dayspring]

He's definitely lower than 25% of his power prior to Goku using Kaioken. After the first use of Kaiokens, Freeza guesses that Goku still hasn't used all of his strength and Goku says he's right. If 50% is equal to Kaioken x20, then we know Kaioken x10 is equal to 25%. Since Goku, using less than Kaioken x10 was on par with Freeza prior to going 50%, we know Freeza was below 25%. At the dead beginning of the fight, Freeza stops and notes how strong Goku is, then kicks things up a notch. That means Freeza was even lower than that unknown ''less than 25%'' when he tortured Vegeta. Added to all this, when Vegeta fires his most powerful attack, Freeza lets out a loud shout of effort to kick it away, implying he was weaker still when he first transformed. So if I had to guess:

First transforming = 5%
Torturing Vegeta/First fighting Goku = 5-10%
After realising Goku's much stronger than Ginyu = 10-15%
Fighting Goku w/Kaioken (less than 10) = 20%
Fighting Goku w/Kaioken x10 = 50% (confirmed in manga)
Fighting Goku w/Kaioken x20 = 50-70% (closer to 50%)
Post-Genkidama = 70%
Full-power = 100% (redundant, but confirmed in manga)