Plotholes of GT. What exactly are they?

[Bussani]

That was the best phrasing I could come up with, but it really doesn't work since I don't really think something in the DBverse could be considered alive until it has a soul. Sentience and life aren't the same thing, for instance. The arrival of the soul, the spark of life, would occur at the moment the organic components that will become the being are able to support the soul. With an entirely artificial construct like 19 there is no such point because if there was then all artificial things, toasters, cars, planes, and so on, would have souls.

Comparing 19 to a toaster seems like comparing a person to a hand or a kidney. Or another way of putting it, if you genetically engineered an organic toaster, would it have a soul?

19, however, is not. He's a machine, purely robotic with no organic components at all. He shouldn't have a ki.

Well, actually No.19 quite demonstrably does have ki: the ki he sucks out of other people to use as his own. Why nobody ever seems able to sense that ki except here in Gt is probably a topic for another thread though.

Hmm, that's a point. Unless you go with the idea that the absorbed ki is converted into their same form of energy, and thus couldn't be sensed either.

That's what I'd assume. Ki attacks are like kinetic blasts. Converting it into some kind of mechanical energy--whatever the Androids use--makes more sense than somehow storing it as ki, to me.

This is all theory, of course, but I'd figure the soul would enter at the first instant the biological mass was sufficient for containing it, and thus it would be alive. The simple nature of organic life 'summons' a soul to it as soon as it's able to hold one. 19 is really no different than the computers we're sitting at right now, only he looks like a person. Unless your computer has a soul I wouldn't expect 19 to have one either. It's hard to put into words beyond that.

For the reasons mentioned above. He's just a PC that can walk and talk and fight.

There's a big difference between a sentient android and a PC. A PC doesn't "think" at all. It's a calculator that runs through commands, very quickly and in order. I don't see why an artificial version of a human brain shouldn't be able to "summon" a soul when it's "sufficient for containing it" while an organic one can. In a purely physical sense, humans are just complicated machines themselves.

Also, while on this subject, if 19 has a soul and is thus 'alive' how would you determine when he's dead, and thus crosses over to Otherworld? An Android can be rebuilt and repaired, like 16 was. Fully restored to their original condition from damage that would have killed an organic being.

If you reanimate someone's corpse, what happens then? Do they get the same soul back if it's available? A different one? None at all?

[Puto]

Oh yeah, another plothole/inconsistency I just noticed.

When someone dies and gets sent to hell, if they had cybernetic implants done to them, do their otherworld bodies keep those cybernetic implants? This is inconsistent in GT, as Dr. Gero remains a cyborg, but Freeza does not.

[Xyex]

That was the best phrasing I could come up with, but it really doesn't work since I don't really think something in the DBverse could be considered alive until it has a soul. Sentience and life aren't the same thing, for instance. The arrival of the soul, the spark of life, would occur at the moment the organic components that will become the being are able to support the soul. With an entirely artificial construct like 19 there is no such point because if there was then all artificial things, toasters, cars, planes, and so on, would have souls.

Comparing 19 to a toaster seems like comparing a person to a hand or a kidney. Or another way of putting it, if you genetically engineered an organic toaster, would it have a soul?

In the DBverse, quite probably yes. It seems that all living things in the DBverse have them.

This is all theory, of course, but I'd figure the soul would enter at the first instant the biological mass was sufficient for containing it, and thus it would be alive. The simple nature of organic life 'summons' a soul to it as soon as it's able to hold one. 19 is really no different than the computers we're sitting at right now, only he looks like a person. Unless your computer has a soul I wouldn't expect 19 to have one either. It's hard to put into words beyond that.

For the reasons mentioned above. He's just a PC that can walk and talk and fight.

There's a big difference between a sentient android and a PC. A PC doesn't "think" at all. It's a calculator that runs through commands, very quickly and in order. I don't see why an artificial version of a human brain shouldn't be able to "summon" a soul when it's "sufficient for containing it" while an organic one can. In a purely physical sense, humans are just complicated machines themselves.

I wouldn't really say that 19 does, either. 16, maybe, but 19 follows his programing to the letter with no indication of a will of his own. 16 is able to act independent of his programing, so he's more than just a calculator running a program. 19 is merely executing lines of code and following the results through to their conclusion. Thus he's no more than a PC that can walk and talk. Asimo on steroids.

Also, while on this subject, if 19 has a soul and is thus 'alive' how would you determine when he's dead, and thus crosses over to Otherworld? An Android can be rebuilt and repaired, like 16 was. Fully restored to their original condition from damage that would have killed an organic being.

If you reanimate someone's corpse, what happens then? Do they get the same soul back if it's available? A different one? None at all?

You reanimate a corpse, you get a zombie. Even Dragonball agrees with that, just look at movie 12.

Oh yeah, another plothole/inconsistency I just noticed.

When someone dies and gets sent to hell, if they had cybernetic implants done to them, do their otherworld bodies keep those cybernetic implants? This is inconsistent in GT, as Dr. Gero remains a cyborg, but Freeza does not.

Haha. Hmm. Well, maybe the difference is in nature? Freeza's cybernetics were the result of severe injury. Gero's cybernetics were intentional.

Actually, if you think about it, that's about the only thing that makes sense when you consider 17 and 18 as well. The two of them were killed in the Buu Saga along with the rest of the Earth's population. I don't think anyone here would argue that they were revived as full humans, despite the fact that a resurrected Ti­en earlier came back with his hand restored, and Freeza came back fully organic in movie 12 after his escape from Hell.

So if the cybernetics are considered 'part of you' by way of being 'your new body' as it were, as opposed to being 'replacements' and nothing more than prosthetics, really, you'd keep them when dead, since you're not 'injured'. But, otherwise, your body would be healed and restored to normal.

[Puto]

K, more plotholes:

- Z showed that Gokû *can* teleport in and out of the afterlife. He did so in canon to Kaiô's planet, and in filler he teleported in and out of Hell itself. So why didn't he just teleport himself out of Hell after Gero and Mu locked him there? On that note, why didn't Cell do that after he died?
- Puipui has a Majin crest on his head. Those should have disappeared either after he died, or after Babidi died, like with Vegeta.
- Piccolo says he can't get out of Hell along with Gokû because if he moved, the gate would close. Then Hell Fighter #17 would have the same issue, yet he clearly left with Gero and Mu.
- Piccolo shouldn't have to pull that "wahaha I'm evil" shit to get into Hell, he just has to jump off Snake Way.
- Taking into account Z filler, Gokû *knows* how to get out of Hell, there's a pathway leading to Enma's desk.
- I still have no explanation as to why Baby used the Black Star Dragon Balls to create Planet Tsufuru as opposed to the regular Dragon Balls. The end of the Boo arc showed that regular DBs *can* create planets, as they called on Porunga to restore the Earth.

[Xyex]

K, more plotholes:

- Z showed that Gokû *can* teleport in and out of the afterlife. He did so in canon to Kaiô's planet, and in filler he teleported in and out of Hell itself. So why didn't he just teleport himself out of Hell after Gero and Mu locked him there? On that note, why didn't Cell do that after he died?

Maybe Gero and Myu screwed around with the 'controls' to Hell and changed the rules, thus stopping him from teleporting out? As for Cell, as long as you ignore filler (and GT) he's just cloud, so he can't teleport.

Or maybe Goku's teleporting around the afterlife all willy-nilly made the Kais go "Oh, geez, that's not good. We could have mass break-out if Cell does that with everyone down there holding on to him" and they changed the rules to prevent it.

- Puipui has a Majin crest on his head. Those should have disappeared either after he died, or after Babidi died, like with Vegeta.

Maybe Babidi re-majinized him after he died, too? Wouldn't be surprised. Part of a failed "let's all get out of here!" plan (likely cooked up by Freeza).

- Piccolo says he can't get out of Hell along with Gokû because if he moved, the gate would close. Then Hell Fighter #17 would have the same issue, yet he clearly left with Gero and Mu.

I've not actually seen these bits and it sounds like I would have to make some sort of solid idea for them. Though... isn't Hell Fighter 17 supposedly stronger than the original one? Maybe he's also stronger than Piccolo and it's his strength that lets him hold the gate open and leave at the same time?

- Piccolo shouldn't have to pull that "wahaha I'm evil" shit to get into Hell, he just has to jump off Snake Way.

Piccolo just wanted to cut loose and have some fun.

Or maybe when the Kai's updated Hell's locks they fixed that little "fall through the clouds and you're in Hell and stuck there, even if you're a good person" problem.

- Taking into account Z filler, Gokû *knows* how to get out of Hell, there's a pathway leading to Enma's desk.

Cell and Freeza, in one of their numerous escape attempts, found the path and tried to use it to get out. Pik­kon (and Goku, if he were still dead at the time) subsequently blasted it into oblivion. No more exit.

- I still have no explanation as to why Baby used the Black Star Dragon Balls to create Planet Tsufuru as opposed to the regular Dragon Balls. The end of the Boo arc showed that regular DBs *can* create planets, as they called on Porunga to restore the Earth.

Well, Porunga was shown to restore a planet. He put the pieces back together. He didn't make a full planet out of nothing, which is what Bebi wanted. So that could be something that takes more power than Shenron has. Maybe even more than Porunga, thus being something only Redshenron can grant.

[Puto]

K, more plotholes:
- Z showed that Gokû *can* teleport in and out of the afterlife. He did so in canon to Kaiô's planet, and in filler he teleported in and out of Hell itself. So why didn't he just teleport himself out of Hell after Gero and Mu locked him there? On that note, why didn't Cell do that after he died?

Maybe Gero and Myu screwed around with the 'controls' to Hell and changed the rules, thus stopping him from teleporting out? As for Cell, as long as you ignore filler (and GT) he's just cloud, so he can't teleport.

I can't ignore GT when we're discussing plotholes in... GT.

[Bussani]

In the DBverse, quite probably yes. It seems that all living things in the DBverse have them.

I find it hard to swallow that a mindless meat toaster would go to the afterlife and a thinking machine wouldn't, but okay.

I wouldn't really say that 19 does, either. 16, maybe, but 19 follows his programing to the letter with no indication of a will of his own. 16 is able to act independent of his programing, so he's more than just a calculator running a program. 19 is merely executing lines of code and following the results through to their conclusion. Thus he's no more than a PC that can walk and talk.

I dunno... I agree that it's more likely with 16, but the way 19 got scared and ran from Vegeta seems like more than just simple programming to me. Maybe Gero programmed him that way as a survival instinct? But then again, you could argue that humans have that sort of thing hard wired into their minds as well, so that's not really proof of a lack of a soul either. Nor is it proof that he had one, of course, but yeah.

[Tsukento]

- Piccolo shouldn't have to pull that "wahaha I'm evil" shit to get into Hell, he just has to jump off Snake Way.

As simple as that sounds, I thought Piccolo was in Heaven at that point, which is not close to Enma's station or Serpentine Road since spirits are flown there by a plane. Hell (no pun intended), Goku had to use the Instantaneous Movement to go directly to Hell with Paikuhan.

Here's something worth noting: How the HFIL did the Red Ribbon Army get all of their vehicles, especially Black with his plane suit? I also don't mean to further the debate whether #19 should be in Hell or not, but even Sgt. Metallic somehow wound up breaking out of jail.

Considering how many years the series has acknowledged has passed by, how in the world is it that all of the villains had stayed in Hell, never having their spirits cleansed, yet Majin Boo is reincarnated as a good person in no time flat?

[SilverPlaqueVII]

More "plotholes":

- Even going by Z anime rules, dead people in Hell had halos in Z filler. No such halos are there in GT, and Piccolo's halo even disappears when he's sent to Hell.

I love it. Recoom, Jhees, Ghurd, Burta, Freeza, King Cold, and Cell were seen with halos on of episode 195. Apule, Babidi, and Dr. Gero were seen later with it. IMO, Good people have halos, while the bad don't.

[Dayspring]

That was the best phrasing I could come up with, but it really doesn't work since I don't really think something in the DBverse could be considered alive until it has a soul. Sentience and life aren't the same thing, for instance. The arrival of the soul, the spark of life, would occur at the moment the organic components that will become the being are able to support the soul. With an entirely artificial construct like 19 there is no such point because if there was then all artificial things, toasters, cars, planes, and so on, would have souls.

Personally, I would argue that sentience is proof that a body has the necessary components to house a soul, especially since it's impossible for Gero to control that sentient process, even though he's the one creating it "from scratch." I see it as instead of landing in an organic body, the soul reincarnated into a mechanical one.

[Tsukento]

Considering #16 didn't come back after Cell killed him...I'm not sure whether to chalk that up under machines not being affected by the life restoration wish of the Dragon Balls, or Toriyama just not giving a damn.

[Bussani]

How do we know #16 didn't come back? We wouldn't even know if #17 had come back if it hadn't been for his brief appearance at the end of the manga.

[Conan the SSJ]

K- Z showed that Gokû *can* teleport in and out of the afterlife. He did so in canon to Kaiô's planet, and in filler he teleported in and out of Hell itself. So why didn't he just teleport himself out of Hell after Gero and Mu locked him there? On that note, why didn't Cell do that after he died?

It was already emphasized in the series that with his child body, Goku can't teleport, at least not anymore than a few feet. Watch episode 4, the start of it pretty much explains why we never see him teleport as such in GT. He can teleport when at SSJ4 because he has his adult body back for that form, but again, not as a kid, though there is the rare exception if he's given enough life energy to tap into the SSJ4 power (as happened when Earth went kaboom). For further in-universe explaining, here's why he couldn't teleport out of Hell; 1) he was stuck as a child, 2) he had no full planet's brutz/blutz waves to utilize transforming to SSJ4 (I think it's assumed Planet Tuffle is still offsreen in Earth's solar system), and 3) he couldn't get any life energy support since Piccolo was already dead.

- Taking into account Z filler, Gokû *knows* how to get out of Hell, there's a pathway leading to Enma's desk.

Getting out of Hell wasn't necessarily the problem, it was getting out of the afterlife in general. Certainly Goku could go to Enma's office, but he was more focused on getting to Earth to save everyone from Super 17 and probably let "just leaving" through the desk slip his mind, since he could do no better good in Enma's office than in Hell.

- I still have no explanation as to why Baby used the Black Star Dragon Balls to create Planet Tsufuru as opposed to the regular Dragon Balls. The end of the Boo arc showed that regular DBs *can* create planets, as they called on Porunga to restore the Earth.

Well, he already had the Black-Star Dragonballs, he probably just wanted to use those and not have to trouble collecting the regular Dragonballs. Earth be damned, it meant he could get back his planet sooner than later. Baby was a crazy hypocrite nut, he clearly didn't care about Earth, as long as he could get back his own soil.

[Puto]

He wasn't stuck as a child. He was at full power and was perfectly capable of going SSj4 at any time he felt like it -- he did so during the battle against Super 17 that took place immediately after he left Hell. Try again. And he flat out stated a few episodes early that after his first transformation, he is now fully capable of turning SSj4 at any time he desires.

Well, he already had the Black-Star Dragonballs, he probably just wanted to use those and not have to trouble collecting the regular Dragonballs. Earth be damned, it meant he could get back his planet sooner than later. Baby was a crazy hypocrite nut, he clearly didn't care about Earth, as long as he could get back his own soil.

It took quite a long time for Gokû, Trunks and Pan to get back to Earth after Baby took it over. With Bulma's Dragon Radar and literally the entire population of Earth at his command, he could have easily tracked down and used the regular Dragon Balls way before those three got back home.

[Travis Touchdown]

Oh yeah, another plothole/inconsistency I just noticed.

When someone dies and gets sent to hell, if they had cybernetic implants done to them, do their otherworld bodies keep those cybernetic implants? This is inconsistent in GT, as Dr. Gero remains a cyborg, but Freeza does not.

I ignore stuff like this because there's some glaring plotholes concerning the afterlife even in Z. For example, when Tien died, his arm was restored. So shouldn't Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan have had their tails restored when they died and were revived as it is a limb of their body that had been severed just like Tien's arm? Also, despite having his arm restored, Tien's scar didn't heal, and neither did Yamcha's, yet in filler Frieza's did.

[Cipher]

It took quite a long time for Gokû, Trunks and Pan to get back to Earth after Baby took it over. With Bulma's Dragon Radar and literally the entire population of Earth at his command, he could have easily tracked down and used the regular Dragon Balls way before those three got back home.

You're assuming it took him, like, no time to actually subjugate the entire planet? He knew Goku and company would be showing up with a fresh set of Dragon Balls gathered for him. He had other things to attend to in the meantime.

[Conan the SSJ]

He wasn't stuck as a child.

Yes, he was, at least in Hell. If I remember right, it was explained by Bulma at some point in the series (I believe episode 55) that in order for Goku to transform to and maintain SSJ4, a full planet needed to be in orbit. This is why he was willing to teleport Baby-Vegeta to the Kaioshin planet, because there were full planets in that realm which could maintain his Brutz Waves absorption. Thus why he was unable to transform in Hell, nothing but clouds above that part of the afterlife realm to provide the required Waves.

He was at full power and was perfectly capable of going SSj4 at any time he felt like it -- he did so during the battle against Super 17 that took place immediately after he left Hell. Try again.

He transformed against Super 17 because he was back on Earth and had the (offscreen) Tuffle planet to rely on. If he could've gone SSJ4 in Hell, he would've in order to teleport, but he didn't and this clearly supports the idea that he needed the presence of Brutz Waves to go level 4. Try what exactly, in-universe explaining? Just did.

And he flat out stated a few episodes early that after his first transformation, he is now fully capable of turning SSj4 at any time he desires.

Yeah, on Earth.

It took quite a long time for Gokû, Trunks and Pan to get back to Earth after Baby took it over. With Bulma's Dragon Radar and literally the entire population of Earth at his command, he could have easily tracked down and used the regular Dragon Balls way before those three got back home.

Apparently you forgot that we never saw normal-Shenlong grant such a wish to restore a planet, only Porunga and that was after his power was increased to revive millions/billions of people in a span of three wishes. Maybe Shenlong couldn't grant such a wish, he did have more obvious limitations than Porunga (at least till the end of GT when he went 'Screw it' in regards to reviving Kuririn). So that could be why Baby wanted to use Black-Star Shenlong; with Dende under his control, he could've been informed that it was beyond the normal-Shenlong's power to create/restore a planet, simple as that.

[Puto]

Yes, he was, at least in Hell. If I remember right, it was explained by Bulma at some point in the series (I believe episode 55) that in order for Goku to transform to and maintain SSJ4, a full planet needed to be in orbit. This is why he was willing to teleport Baby-Vegeta to the Kaioshin planet, because there were full planets in that realm which could maintain his Brutz Waves absorption. Thus why he was unable to transform in Hell, nothing but clouds above that part of the afterlife realm to provide the required Waves.

The only thing Bulma said was that Bruits waves caused Gokû to turn into an Ôzaru. Nothing about "maintaining SSJ4" in there.

I might as well note that the entire Earth was covered in a negative energy fog during the evil dragon arc that would prevent anything from coming in or out of it, including Bruits waves.

[caejones]

All the little details that are being brought up make GT sound a lot more epic than it seems at first glance.
Maybe Gero built another 19 in Hell as well? I mean, if he could build a #17...

[SilverPlaqueVII]

All the little details that are being brought up make GT sound a lot more epic than it seems at first glance.
Maybe Gero built another 19 in Hell as well? I mean, if he could build a #17...

I doubt he can build Hell's version of #13, #14, and #15?