GokoU

[Puto]

As I said before, this isn't a case where four different spellings have appeared officially, like Goku or Krillin (Goku, Gokuu, Gokuh, GOKOU, Kuririn, Kulilin, Klilyn, Krillin). One spelling has always been consistently used, not only by the creator, but by pretty much everyone. If you were romanizing the Kanji for "Game King" outside the context of the series, it would be okay to use "Yuugiou", but if you were referring to the series, it just simply wouldn't be right to use anything other than "Yu-Gi-Oh!".

But all those different spelling are from different sources. If you were just reading Toriyama's comic, and nothing else, you'd see Gokuh, Kulilin, etc. The one case where he used "Goku" was probably as accident, considering he uses "Gokuh" nine different times.

There were cases of "Goku", "Gokuh" and "Gokuu" throughout the manga and anime. It's not consistent. Whereas "Yu-Gi-Oh!" is written in the logo itself.

[Olivier Hague]

Also, 孫悟空 is a Chinese name, not Japanese. It SHOULD be romanized as Sun-Wukong

Not really, no... It's not like that "shenron" thing where the furigana actually try to emulate the Chinese pronunciation, and a good case could be made for the romanization "shenlong". "Son gokû" is just on'yomi.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

All these Chinese and Japanese stuff making me dizzy, so why exactly they use GokoU?

[linkdude20002001]

The reason for using Son Gokou, is the same reason for using Cha-la Head-cha-la: because it looks good (in the eyes of whoever got to decide).

There were cases of "Goku", "Gokuh" and "Gokuu" throughout the manga and anime. It's not consistent. Whereas "Yu-Gi-Oh!" is written in the logo itself.

I'm talking about just the comic, though. I don't recall Toriyama ever using Gokuu or Goku, but apparently he did use Goku...once. He also colored Gokuh GREEN once. He does random things like that occasionally, but 99% of the time, he uses Gokuh, and 99% of the time he's wearing orange.

Also, 孫悟空 is a Chinese name, not Japanese. It SHOULD be romanized as Sun-Wukong

Not really, no... It's not like that "shenron" thing where the furigana actually try to emulate the Chinese pronunciation, and a good case could be made for the romanization "shenlong". "Son gokû" is just on'yomi.

That's not my full quote. I said "孫悟空 is a Chinese name, not Japanese. It SHOULD be romanized as Sun-Wukong, but it's not pronounced that way, so...". I know perfectly well it wouldn't make sense to actually write it as Sun-Wukong, but I was pointing out to Piccolo Daimaoh that it's not Japanese. Not really.

[Olivier Hague]

That's not my full quote.

'Doesn't change what I said above, really...

[linkdude20002001]

What I meant was, it should be written Sun-Wukong...if it wasn't supposed to be pronounced Son Gokuh. So, in Journey to the West, Sun-Wukong is correct, and in Dragon Ball, Son Gokuh is correct.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

"Ou" = long o sound? Not necessarily, no.

In most cases, yes.

'Depends on the context and the romanization system you're using (if you're using an actual system at all: I don't believe Tôei was, here).

They weren't. I don't know of any romanization system that romanizes long "u" as "ou".

But all those different spelling are from different sources.

Exactly. Every source > One source.

Gokuh isn't really a transliteration; it's just a different style of romanization.

No it isn't. Do you know of any romanization system that romanizes long "u" as "uh"? Japanese romanization is all systematic.

Again, to "transliterate" is to write out a word or name as it sounds, using the Latin alphabet.

Exactly, and that's why the "GOKOU" spelling is incorrect. "Ou" in English, (apart from 3 words or so), is pronounced as "ow". "GOKOU" to the lay person, would be pronounced as "Gokow". Team Four Star even makes fun at this. In both English and Japanese, "GOKOU" would be incorrectly pronounced.

Also, 孫悟空 is a Chinese name, not Japanese. It SHOULD be romanized as Sun-Wukong, but that's not how the Japanese pronounce, so...

Yes, in Chinese. But we're talking about Japanese here, so...

... but I was pointing out to Piccolo Daimaoh that it's not Japanese. Not really.

Well, not originally. But then again, so is most Kanji. Every part of Goku's name is commonly used in Japanese. "孫" is the Kanji for "granchild" and is commonly used to write the word "子孫" (Shison) -- "decendant" or "offspring". "悟" is used to write the verb "悟る" (Satoru) -- "to understand". "空" is the Kanji for both "sky" and "emptiness".

All these Chinese and Japanese stuff making me dizzy, so why exactly they use GokoU?

Because they're Japanese toy producers who don't know better.

[Olivier Hague]

"Ou" = long o sound? Not necessarily, no.

In most cases, yes.

Like many people, I use revised Hepburn. "Ou" never stands for a long "o" sound, in revised Hepburn.
Anyway, my point was that you can't argue that "ou" = long "o".

that's why the "GOKOU" spelling is incorrect.

*facepalm*

In both English and Japanese, "GOKOU" would be incorrectly pronounced.

There are no absolute rules telling you how an alphabet word is supposed to be pronounced in Japanese. You're not making sense. Seriously.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

There are no absolute rules telling you how an alphabet word is supposed to be pronounced in Japanese. You're not making sense. Seriously.

I'm talking about in romanized Japanese, "GOKOU" would be pronounce "Gokoh". I know whenever I see "GOKOU", I mentally pronounce it that way. It's just natural to me.

[Olivier Hague]

I'm talking about in romanized Japanese

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. There's no such thing as "romanized Japanese", because there are no absolute rules for the romanization of Japanese. You should know that, "Piccolo Daimaoh".

I know whenever I see "GOKOU", I mentally pronounce it that way. It's just natural to me.

That's just because you're used to wāpuro rōmaji.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about. There's no such thing as "romanized Japanese", because there are no absolute rules for the romanization of Japanese. You should know that, "Piccolo Daimaoh".

Well, yes. There are no absolute rules. There are different systems with their own sets of rules. Romanized Japanese exists, however.


孫悟空 (Japanese) ------> Gokû (Romanized Japanese - using the Kunrei-shiki system)


Oh, and the "Piccolo Daimaoh" thing was an old handle I used to go by before I learnt about romanizations and all that jazz.

That's just because you're used to wāpuro rōmaji.

I'm used to seeing it, but I don't really use it that much myself.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

The answer already given! why the damn bloody fuck you guys arguing!?

[Olivier Hague]

There are different systems with their own sets of rules. Romanized Japanese exists, however.

There are as many "romanized Japanese" as there are ways of romanizing Japanese. Which is to say, a whole bunch. So you can't argue that "xxxx in romanized Japanese would be pronounced yyyy". That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

The answer already given! why the damn bloody fuck you guys arguing!?

We're debating the accuracy of the "GOKOU" spelling. You know, 'coz that's what the topic is about.

[linkdude20002001]

They weren't. I don't know of any romanization system that romanizes long "u" as "ou".

As I said, Gokou ISN'T a romanization, but a transliteration.

No it isn't. Do you know of any romanization system that romanizes long "u" as "uh"? Japanese romanization is all systematic.

Why, yes. Long "u"s can be written uu, uh, û, or ū. Long "o"s can be written oo, oh, ô, ō, and if the "o" is elongated by an "u" rather than an "o", then it can also be written ou. See Romanization of Japanese.

Son Gokuh, Kaioh, Piccolo-Daimaoh, Yu-Gi-Oh!... They all use... No, wait. I've got a better example...

In The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, there are a wide variety of different romanization styles used for character names. You've got Gohma (GOH-MAH), Nabooru (NAH-BOH-ROO), Koume (KOH-MEH), and Ingo (IN-GOH), all of which contain a long "o" in Japanese. There are also cases of transliterations rather than romanizations. For example: Poe instead of Poh, Poo, Pou, or Po. Are you going to tell me that "Poe" is not a transliteration, too?

Exactly, and that's why the "GOKOU" spelling is incorrect. "Ou" in English, (apart from 3 words or so), is pronounced as "ow". "GOKOU" to the lay person, would be pronounced as "Gokow". Team Four Star even makes fun at this. In both English and Japanese, "GOKOU" would be incorrectly pronounced.

Again, you are someone with knowledge of Japanese, so you're an exception. My mom was trying to write "Goku" (without having seen it written before) and ended up writing out "Gokou". Then my friend sees is and pronounces it GOH-KOO. Lately I've been teaching that same friend Japanese, and now he sees words that look like they could be Japanese, and he automatically thinks to pronounce them as such. This would be your problem right now; you automatically see things as a Japanese person would.

Because they're Japanese toy producers who don't know better.

Well, it's technically Bandai's spelling. They use it on toys and their games and such.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

The Dragon Book on DB Kai Blu-Ray also use it!

[Olivier Hague]

Gokou ISN'T a romanization, but a transliteration.

When you're transliterating into the Roman/Latin alphabet, you're romanizing, by definition.

[linkdude20002001]

Yes, technically. But though all transliterations are romanizations, not all romanizations are transliterations. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible. I guess we should say "rōmaji" and "transliteration" then? Or would calling it "rōmaji" be the exact same thing as calling it "romanization"?

[TripleRach]

Yes, technically. But though all transliterations are romanizations, not all romanizations are transliterations.

That's backwards. As Olivier said, romanization is a form of transliteration, from one language's writing system into the Latin alphabet. Not all forms of transliteration involve the Latin alphabet. If someone wanted to write Chinese words in Cyrillic or Hangul, that has nothing to do with the Latin alphabet at all.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Long "o"s can be written oo, oh, ô, ō, and if the "o" is elongated by an "u" rather than an "o", then it can also be written ou. See Romanization of Japanese.

Again, Japanese romanization is systematic. There are systems to it, and romanizing long "o" as "oh" and long "u" as "uh" does not fall into any of them. Yes, they are technically romanizations, but they're archaic and incorrect by today's standards. I only see them nowadays in a few Japanese people/character names and seldom in series names. Those paricular romanizations mostly stem from Japanese people not knowing correct romanization systems (hence Toriyama using "Gokuh").


Yes, I know what I just said may seem hypocritical, since I have used the "oh" romanization on many occasions and it's in my username. But I obviously have learnt from then and do don't do it currently.

Again, you are someone with knowledge of Japanese, so you're an exception. My mom was trying to write "Goku" (without having seen it written before) and ended up writing out "Gokou". Then my friend sees is and pronounces it GOH-KOO. Lately I've been teaching that same friend Japanese, and now he sees words that look like they could be Japanese, and he automatically thinks to pronounce them as such. This would be your problem right now; you automatically see things as a Japanese person would.

I would agree with you that I automatically see things as a Japanese person would, that's why I've tried to see the "GOKOU" spelling as a layperson. Yes, I can sort of see how someone might pronounce "GOKOU" as "Gokuu", through words like "you" and "caribou". But these types of words are rare and 90% of the time, "ou" is pronounced as "ow" in English. Don't believe me? Here's a whole list of them.