DragonBall Z Kai TV Network Version (CW4Kids\Toonzai\Vortex)

[batistabus]

He's a blackface, has terrible teeth, is a servant, and speaks like an idiot in the Japanese version. As hilarious as I find this edit, I get it.

[Hao_Kaiser]

They just don't want to Jynx things.

I see what you did there.

I all honesty, I think Blue Popo is hilarious, just because of how poorly it is done. FUNi should get a pass. Clearly, they're in on the joke here.

[Budogenkai]

Omg I just saw this edit and holy crap i've lost all hope in humanity.

[jjgp1112]

They just don't want to Jynx things.

I see what you did there.

I all honesty, I think Blue Popo is hilarious, just because of how poorly it is done. FUNi should get a pass. Clearly, they're in on the joke here.

I can just imagine them in the studio trying to make the edit as hilarious as possible.

[SaiyamanMS]

I'm vaguely reminded of "Citramon" in Digimon Data Squad. He was originally a giant bomb named "BomberNanimon" attacking an amusement park, but the dub turned him into a giant orange instead.

[Gozar]

I think the disgust for this edit is going a little too far. It's a stupid edit for ONE OF the TV Broadcasts. It's not really a big deal. Seriously..."Losing all hope in humanity"? Because something that was potentially offensive was made to be unoffensive? This edit means absolutely nothing. It's just something fun to laugh at, nothing to take so seriously.

Remember, DragonBall IS a kids show. So it's a good thing that they want to market towards young kids here in the states. But people have to realize that the US and Japan have different standards and certain edits have to be made to make the series acceptable for the same demographic it's aimed towards in Japan. Is it stupid that America feels it must baby its youth so much? Of course it is. But this just gets the series out there to a larger demographic, which is a good thing.

Again, remember, Japan and the US and two totally different cultures. America is very diverse, while Japan has like 1 black guy living in the whole country. So it breaks down like this:

USA: I hope this content doesn't offend the Black demographic.

Japan: I hope this content doesn't offend Steve.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

He's a blackface, has terrible teeth, is a servant, and speaks like an idiot in the Japanese version.

Thank you.


Whether any of you guys will admit it or not, there is a lot of potential for someone to see Mr. Popo as a racist stereotype. I don't think Toriyama was necessarily going for that, but that's unfortunately how it is.

[G1Ravage]

What's most odd is that it took 15 years for somebody to edit it for a television broadcast. It clearly wasn't an issue before Toonzai, and it still isn't an issue for Nicktoons.

While I understand the connotations about what the image represents from the old days, it should be seen as what it is, and not taken beyond that. Frankly, I don't see why black people are so offended by *this*, and not by how they're currently being portrayed in today's hip-hop world, as pants-drooping, women-abusing, drug-pushing, foul-mouthed gangbangers. That's MUCH more offensive to me. Not that you would be seeing images like that in a children's show, but it's out there in the media, on television, radio, and the Internet for everyone to see. But it's a double standard, because the rap music and videos are being produced by black people themselves, and sadly, it's been accepted by society to simply sit back and let them publicly degrade themselves.

[dan2026]

So other TV shows (Little Britain) and movies (Tropic Thunder) can have humourous Blackface characters but in Dragonball its suddenly highly racist?

[Tsukento]

Honestly, most of us saw him as just a genie and not a walking/talking racial stereotype. :s

[Cipher]

So other TV shows (Little Britain) and movies (Tropic Thunder) can have humourous Blackface characters but in Dragonball its suddenly highly racist?

D- ... do you not understand demographics? Tropic Thunder is an R-rated movie. The Toonzai version of Kai is airing Saturday mornings on a syndicated children's block.

Secondly, in both examples you mentioned the racist aspects of the characters is the joke. They're intended for audiences who are old enough to understand that the characters are funny because they're so offensive. There's no joke with Mr. Popo; he's just an egregiously Sambo-esque design because of the time and place he came from. And that's okay. No one's saying there's anything malicious about him. But his design is potentially offensive, has always been potentially offensive, and they're just taking steps to assure that his potential offensiveness doesn't come back to bite them in the ass while they run the show on a syndicated children's block.

I'm beginning to think the "reality check" comment wasn't at all uncalled for. Do I find Mr. Popo personally offensive? No. And I'm sure there are plenty of black people who don't either. Hell, anyone who follows the show knows there's no ill intent there. But do I understand why he might be? Boy, do I ever.

Anyone who still doesn't get it, go to the Wikipedia entry on "Sambo" and go down to the section labeled "Sambo imagery," which discusses the frequency with which the image is still used in Japan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_%28racial_term%29

Or here, for the entry on blackface, particularly "Darky imagery": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface (Oh hey, look at all the Mr. Popos!)

This is where the controversy comes from, so if anyone was lacking in their Vaudevillian history, I can see how they might not have picked up on it. Mr. Popo is a complete Sambo image. Which is fine and inoffensive in Japan, with their completely different racial demographics, but has all sorts of racial stigma attached to it in in its native U.S. It's this really bizarre case of cultural reinterpretation.

If you still don't get it, do a test. Picture yourself dressing up like Mr. Popo, walking into an NAACP meeting, and then try to imagine yourself not getting your ass kicked. If you can't do that, then you should be able to sympathize with why they might have thought it prudent to change his design for this specific airing.

*some tired argument about rap music*

I don't see how that applies to Mr. Popo inadvertently being a racist caricature at all, which should be the only thing on the table here. I personally agree with you on "taking it for what it is," kind of like watching the "Why is the red man red?" song in Disney's Peter Pan. It wouldn't fly now, but you understand that it came from a different time and place, and wasn't meant in a malicious way. The problem is that the average parent who watches two minutes of Kai has no idea that it comes from 1980s Japan, or what that imagery means there. All they know is that there's blackface in a children's cartoon, and they're the ones who would complain to and attack 4Kids/Funimation. So that's the idea.

[Tanooki Kuribo]

but in Dragonball its suddenly highly racist?

Mr.Popo's character design is crazy racist. It always has been. As DragonBall fans though we are so used to seeing him, we don't really think about it. Someone who isn't a fan, or better yet, a parent of a child watching this, you might actually be taken back by his design.

If I had a Mr.Popo figure on my desk at work, I'm sure I'd get a call from HR.

I don't see why black people are so offended by *this*, and not by how they're currently being portrayed in today's hip-hop world, as pants-drooping, women-abusing, drug-pushing, foul-mouthed gangbangers

I think it's just that, Mr.Popo's particular design is pretty much the icon for black stereotypes.

[omegacwa]

It is my personal opinion that all of these edits are absolutely ludicrous. Even the "unedited" Kai Dvd/blu ray are still edited. I know they edited it in Japan, but why? Why?

I know this has already been discussed to death, but Dragon Ball Z and Db and DBGT never needed to be edited in the first place.

When I was a kid, I grew up watching shows like the Simpsons and the X-files and all kinds of Fox shows. Not only do these shows show people being shot, but also blood, sex, sexual humor and innuendo, alcohol consumption, tobacco use, drug use, violence, and nudity. And I, and all of my friends, watched these shows. AND IT WAS FINE.

IMO the only logical edits are nudity. Dragon Ball is a kids show. It was designed for kids. The show does have some bloody moments, but it's far from a grotesque blood bath. No one is ever showed having sex, hell, there is barley any kissing.

The show is relatively tame over all. And it's not like kids of my generation didn't watch power rangers and other shows depicting people beating the shit out of each other. Why is it such a problem now, why was it a problem in 96 with the ocean dub? It doesn't make sense.

If you don't like something don't watch it. If you don't want your kids watching something, don't let them. END OF STORY.

If someone finds Mr. Popo offensive, then don't watch the show. Don't buy your kids the Manga and so on. It's not hard. If you want to shelter your kid form violence and so on, that's your priority as a parent, Don't fuck everyone else over who isn't afraid to show their kids some mild cartoon violence.

Has anyone seen Mr. Popo and then gone out and made fun of black people as a direct cause and effect? I don't think so. Also Mr. Popo isn't even human, he is a deity, far from a demeaning position. When I look at Popo, I see a genie looking dude. I never once thought of him as racist until someone pointed it out, and even so I could care less. As someone else said, Mr. Popo is far less offensive then most of the black images in the current media, which often depict black people as ignorant, money grubbing, drug dealers who are unemployed gang members who beat their girlfriends and have dog fighting rings in their backyards. I, as a white person, am far more offended by that depiction of black people then Mr. Popo. Sure Mr. Popo looks somewhat like Sambo and Black face depictions, but those are outdated stereotypes that have basically died out. I am fairly certain the majority of the current black generation don't even know what sambo or black face is.

And since when has showing the contact of a punch or kick been offensive? I don't get it. Are kids supposed to think "Oh he didn't punch him, his fist moved so fast that wind knocked him back!" Ridiculous.

Also, I know this is old news, but the whole HFIL thing. I have always found that stupid. I was raised Catholic and went to an after school Catholic program for many years. The fact that they needed to cover up hell, as in the place, not as in the "cuss word" makes no sense. Hell is a place you don't want to go, Grand Duke Enma explains to Goku that it is a bad place, Goku doesn't want to get trapped there. So... Goku doesn't want to go to Hell, where is the bad moral in this?

I'm not really that pissed, because like I said, I can choose not to watch it, and not support it. I will continue to not watch Kai on Nicktoons and especially not 4kids. I will buy the "uncut(well as uncut as the Japanese version)" dvds because my interest in the new English dub compels me, but honestly it's the only thing that holds my interest at all, if they just reused the old dub, I don't even think I would give Kai a second look.

Remember guys, this is just my opinion. I have no intent on offending anyone. Maybe 4kids can come and edit my post

[Cipher]

*whoo boy*

Go take up issue on an FCC message board then. Whether the demands made of children's programming are right or wrong have nothing to do with Kai. Kai is being edited to broadcasting specifications because it needs to in order to air. End of story. 4Kids wanted Popo re-colored so they wouldn't have a sea of complaints on their hands, which is understandable. End of story.

And if you think it's anything new, remember how the '90s Spider-Man cartoon couldn't even show punches, and how damn hard Bruce Timm had to work to get things like actual guns into Batman: The Animated Series. None of us work for the FCC, Funimation doesn't work for the FCC, 4Kids doesn't work for the FCC. We're all tired of hearing about it. Some of it's stupid, but the companies have no control over it.

I, as a white person, am far more offended by that depiction of black people then Mr. Popo.

Hahaha, oh man. Not even going to touch this one.

[Zep]

I would mostly agree with what you said... Except this part:

Has anyone seen Mr. Popo and then gone out and made fun of black people as a direct cause and effect? I don't think so. Also Mr. Popo isn't even human, he is a deity, far from a demeaning position. When I look at Popo, I see a genie looking dude. I never once thought of him as racist until someone pointed it out, and even so I could care less. As someone else said, Mr. Popo is far less offensive then most of the black images in the current media, which often depict black people as ignorant, money grubbing, drug dealers who are unemployed gang members who beat their girlfriends and have dog fighting rings in their backyards. I, as a white person, am far more offended by that depiction of black people then Mr. Popo. Sure Mr. Popo looks somewhat like Sambo and Black face depictions, but those are outdated stereotypes that have basically died out. I am fairly certain the majority of the current black generation don't even know what sambo or black face is.

Just because something is inoffensive to you doesn't mean that other people won't be offended by it. When I saw Mr Popo, I IMMEDIATELY knew he was a black caricature, at least in his design. Just because there are indeed worse depictions of black people in a lot of media doesn't mean that this isn't potentially offensive to people. I dunno where your idea of "outdated stereotypes" comes from... At least here in the UK, references to "The Black and White Minstrel Show" tend to get thrown around whenever a show that's particularly offensive comes out. The reason they're "outdated" is because no-one uses them anymore, and no-one uses them anymore because they're offensive. Bringing back something that was deemed offensive in the past and has become taboo doesn't miraculously make it okay again.

Also, whether they're aware of what sambo or black face is or not, it's not too hard for the current black generation to look at a character like Mr Popo and connect the dots; he's still a big-lipped, black-skinned, pale-palmed servant.

[omegacwa]

*whoo boy*

Go take up issue on an FCC message board then. Whether the demands made of children's programming are right or wrong have nothing to do with Kai. Kai is being edited to broadcasting mandates because it needs to in order to air. End of story. 4Kids wanted Popo re-colored so they wouldn't have a sea of complaints on their hands, which is understandable. End of story.

And if you think it's anything new, remember how the '90s Spider-Man cartoon couldn't even show punches, and how damn hard Bruce Timm had to work to get things like actual guns into Batman: The Animated Series. None of us work for the FCC, Funimation doesn't work for the FCC, 4Kids doesn't work for the FCC. We're all tired of hearing about it. Some of it's stupid, but the companies have no control over it.

I, as a white person, am far more offended by that depiction of black people then Mr. Popo.

Hahaha, oh man. Not even going to touch this one.

I didn't know that Bruce Timm had to work hard to get guns into the Batman Animated series. That seems pretty ridiculous to me. I mean Batman doesn't use guns, he fights the people who use guns, guns are bad, Batman stops the bad guys. Not a bad moral for kids IMO. I don't understand the FCC's issues.

Also I never said that funimation, Toei, and so on edited the show just for fun. I understand that they are being cut due to the standards of television broadcast. I find the standards themselves to be out of control.

As for the second part, I am just saying that when I see a trailer for a movie like "Soul Plane" or the recent "Lottery Ticket" I get offended by the depiction of black people in those movies, because I know plenty of Black people who are nothing like that, and I am disgusted by the mass media depiction of black people as ignorant people. I think it puts out a bad image, and is probably doing more harm then good.

This isn't a racial debate, I stated my reason for why I don't find Mr Popo as offensive as other media depictions of Black people and that's it. If you think a white person can't be offended by the depiction of another race, then I don't know what to say. I get offended when I see Asians depicted in a racist way also. Also a while ago on WWE there was a team of Hispanics that wrestled as a mexicools, they came out dressed as day laborers. That's offensive as well. I find these things offensive but I am not going to tell people to not watch it, just don't support it if you are a offended.

[Cipher]

As for the second part, I am just saying that when I see a trailer for a movie like "Soul Plane" or the recent "Lottery Ticket" I get offended by the depiction of black people in those movies, because I know plenty of Black people who are nothing like that, and I am disgusted by the mass media depiction of black people as ignorant people. I think it puts out a bad image, and is probably doing more harm then good.

Also a while ago on WWE there was a team of Hispanics that wrestled as a mexicools, they came out dressed as day laborers. That's offensive as well. I find these things offensive but I am not going to tell people to not watch it, just don't support it if you are a offended.

I see where you're coming from, but it's generally a good practice to avoid telling other groups which of their own products they should find offensive. Especially when you have movies like that actually made by and for black people themselves, or the Hispanic wrestlers making the joke themselves. It opens up a huge can of worms. There's a reason a white person asking "How come you can use the n-word, but we can't? Should it offend you?" is such a classically ridiculous scenario. You just don't go there. It's up to each group to decide where their own boundaries are, and that doesn't mean everyone's invited in on the joke.

Long story short, yeah, if you're not Mexican, you don't have a right to be offended by them joking about their own stereotype. It's a fairly accepted rule of life.

But all this is waaaaay off point. I think we can all agree that, whether or not we personally find Mr. Popo offensive, or whether or not he even should be, 4Kids has every right to be nervous about featuring him on their block.

In my day to day life I have never been exposed to sambo characters, and I only came across it after I read a discussion about Mr. Popo.

Then you're glib. You don't know the history of Vaudevillian racism. That, or you never read Invisible Man in high school, which is a shame.

[omegacwa]

Just because something is inoffensive to you doesn't mean that other people won't be offended by it. When I saw Mr Popo, I IMMEDIATELY knew he was a black caricature, at least in his design. Just because there are indeed worse depictions of black people in a lot of media doesn't mean that this isn't potentially offensive to people. I dunno where your idea of "outdated stereotypes" comes from... At least here in the UK, references to "The Black and White Minstrel Show" tend to get thrown around whenever a show that's particularly offensive comes out. The reason they're "outdated" is because no-one uses them anymore, and no-one uses them anymore because they're offensive. Bringing back something that was deemed offensive in the past and has become taboo doesn't miraculously make it okay again.

Also, whether they're aware of what sambo or black face is or not, it's not too hard for the current black generation to look at a character like Mr Popo and connect the dots; he's still a big-lipped, black-skinned, pale-palmed servant.

Well, I accidentally sparked a debate....

Anywho, I understand what is offensive to some might not be offensive to others, I am not a moron.

What I am saying is that Sambo and black face and so on are outdated stereotypes that don't appear in media anymore. I feel like the only way you could find these things is if you purposefully went looking for them. The internet has made it too easy, but let's ignore that for now. In my day to day life I have never been exposed to sambo characters, and I only came across it after I read a discussion about Mr. Popo.

I am not saying it is ok to have a racist character on a show. But it is ok to have a genie like character who is a servant to god and helps the heroes learn how to become better fighters. His appearance might be slightly offensive, But I think his attributes as a character more then cancel out his vaguely racist appearance. I would prefer him be the way he is, then have him look like a stereotypical alien, and have him do black stereotypical racist things which I don't feel like mentioning.

Look guys, I am sorry if I offended anyone, and I know this isn't the FCC board, I was just stating my opinion on the matter as it pertains to Kai and Z.

[omegacwa]

I see where you're coming from, but it's generally a good practice to avoid telling other groups what they should find offensive. Especially when you have movies like that actually made by and for black people themselves, or the Hispanic wrestlers making the joke themselves. It opens up a huge can of worms. It's the equivalent of a white person complaining to BET that they're perpetuating their own stereotypes. There's a reason a white person asking "How come you can use the n-word, but we can't? Should it offend you?" is such a classically ridiculous scenario. You just don't go there. It's up to each group to decide where their own boundaries are, and that doesn't mean everyone's invited in on the joke.

But all this is waaaaay off point. I think we can all agree that, whether or not we personally find Mr. Popo offensive, or whether or not he even should be, 4Kids has every right to be nervous about featuring him on their block.

Yeah, I get what you're saying.

Mr. Popo may be offensive, but why is his image all of a sudden taboo? He has appeared in DB media for over 2 decades, why does he suddenly now have to be the genie from Aladdin. It just an odd double standard. It's like if someone suddenly felt the old show "Martin" was offensive, so they recolored Martin Lawrence blue when it runs in syndication.

[Soul]

http://www.youtube.com/user/lseths#p/u/1/Dgv6G_uH7TM
Towards the end of the video, they mention something interesting..