Dragonball Kai (FUNimation English) Dub: General Discussion

[Zionist]

But DBZ to him isn't DBZ.

Is there something wrong with you? Because I am pretty damned sure that everyone here has watched the same FUNimation dub in English that I have, and I am sure that it's called Dragon Ball Z. You're just being a strictly for Canon fan right now. Supposedly anything that isn't correct isn't DBZ? pfft....You must be out of your mind

[RazorX]

pfft....You must be out of your mind

I find your "defense" of Funi's Z dub scene more "out of your mind" than penguintruth's statements. Vegeta was not the way he was because of Freeza, as Funi's dub incorrectly portrayed, nor is he that good of heart to ask Goku to not let Freeza do to anyone else what he supposedly did to him. The Funi Z dub scene's script was incorrect to the character, the Kai scene is an improvement in script and acting.

[Kaboom]

Knock it off, guys.

[batistabus]

Sometimes you guys just validate what people on other boards say about this place.

"Your most authoritative DragonBall discussion board"

The original Z dub representation of this scene was disrespectful to the original material. The changes weren't made for that purpose, but it's what ended up happening.

So is it okay to disrespect someone who respects a separate instance of disrespect?

[ohaimynameiserik]

If what other people say about this place is being validated by an instance like this, then let it be validated. The original English treatment of this scene was not DBZ.

Sure, I could take footage of The Lord Of The Rings, and dub over Saruman's dialog saying that he was just a bad guy because Sauron killed his daddy and Frodo should should destroy the ring so he couldn't do it to anyone else.

But would that be The Lord Of The Rings? Hell no.

You can like it as much as you want, but if you tell me that the butchering they did to this scene before is better, I will simply tell you as if it were factual; "No." I would not go on and on and say how much I respect your opinion, because I personally would find your opinion outrageous.

[Zionist]

It's sad the way some people think. I highly doubt you would be talking trash of the scene I speak of if Kai never came into existence. In fact, I'd bet money that those of you who think this way once thought that it was a sad scene and one of the best Vegeta moments. Now that Kai has come out you've changed the way you think. You most definitely became a fan of the Dub I speak of (if not, then you're a Japanese voices fan or some other language), because from what everyone says about the 4kids dub, it's sh** compared to everything else. And that includes the dub I'm talking about. So to call the DBZ FUNi dub I like NOT DBZ is blasphemous. That's just being close minded.

[Gaffer Tape]

Not that I don't respect your preference to the dub scene, but I think you're off base saying that Kai has changed people's opinions. Fans of the original version have been complaining about the mishandling of Vegeta's death since it first aired in 1999. Kai has nothing to do with it. The only thing the Kai dub is doing for those people is making them happy that the scene is actually being translated properly for the first time. I do think people might be acting a little overzealous toward you, and I'm sorry that's happened, but don't misinterpret their motives. Vegeta's death in the dub has been a highly contentious scene for over a decade now.

[KaiserNeko]

Not that I don't respect your preference to the dub scene, but I think you're off base saying that Kai has changed people's opinions. Fans of the original version have been complaining about the mishandling of Vegeta's death since it first aired in 1999. Kai has nothing to do with it. The only thing the Kai dub is doing for those people are making them happy that the scene is actually being translated properly for the first time. I do think people might be acting a little overzealous toward you, and I'm sorry that's happened, but don't misinterpret their motives. Vegeta's death in the dub has been a highly contentious scene for over a decade now.

What he said.

And what in the world does 4Kids have to do with any of this? They never even once touched the show.

BTW, I should note that even Sabat and Schemmel have admitted to their earlier performances being under-par. Which, from an acting stand-point, they -really were-. These new performances are leagues better and more believable, the script is far more accurate. All in all, without regards to the music and pacing, this is significantly better than the original... if you consider a FAITHFUL SCRIPT to be better.

[Ashy-kun]

It's sad the way some people think. I highly doubt you would be talking trash of the scene I speak of if Kai never came into existence. In fact, I'd bet money that those of you who think this way once thought that it was a sad scene and one of the best Vegeta moments. Now that Kai has come out you've changed the way you think. You most definitely became a fan of the Dub I speak of (if not, then you're a Japanese voices fan or some other language), because from what everyone says about the 4kids dub, it's sh** compared to everything else. And that includes the dub I'm talking about. So to call the DBZ FUNi dub I like NOT DBZ is blasphemous. That's just being close minded.

Actually, I never really thought the Vegeta scene was too sad, from Funimation's original dub of the scene. And I actually "most definitely became a fan" of the dub with the Ocean voice actors. So please don't generalise all us fans and lump us into one group. Some of us had more choice (if you can call it choice that we kept getting constant back and forth of which voice cast we got) in what voices we heard and could make our own decisions. I liked the Ocean cast, for both the first two seasons, and then the episodes from the Jinzouningen episodes onwards.

However, here's where I have to point out the problem in how overzealous you are acting towards some of us who just like the fact that the scene in question here was translated accurately and keeping in character to Vegeta (i.e. keeping in character as to how Toriyama wrote Vegeta, and the dialogue he gave Vegeta).

I can understand you have an affinity for the version you grew accustomed to. It's human nature too. I defend the dub I grew up most with, when the overdone "This sux! Sabat is best lol" comments come. However I can acknowledge the acting does have its bad points, and the dialogue (essentially just Funimation's scripts) is not always accurate. The acting comes out as a case of rushed production, so I forgive it a little more easily, but it's still got its bad acting parts, or phoned in performances.

Does that mean I'm wrong for liking the dub? No. Does it mean that if people tell me it's not accurate to the original, they're wrong, because I like it and that's all that matters? No. Definitely not.

Now people have been a bit overzealous in reaction to you, but only because you originally started and just stated that a more faithful adaptation sucked in comparison to a version you preferred, and that you then declared that accuracy and faithfulness to the original source material could be dismissed for all you care.

In short, if you want to say YOUR version of DragonBall Z is DragonBall Z and that's that, then fine. More power to you. But to some people who have been fans of the original, it's not DragonBall Z. It's an adaptation that gets parts genuinely wrong, with very little reason, for them at least. Neither side is wrong for PREFERRING a version of the show. But it cannot be denied that the dialogue in the original dub scene is inaccurate, because it isn't a translation of what Toriyama originally wrote. It's a script-writer embellishing the genuine idea for something they felt should be there instead.

That is actually fact. That cannot be denied. Hell, I actually TRANSLATED dialogue from that scene in the topic highlighting the edits, just to show how the line of "killed by a Saiyan hand" is an embellished, not entirely true line, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about when the dialogue in the Vegeta death scene was not translated accurately. However, whether one version is better than the other, or is "really DragonBall Z" is all dependent on the person. To you, it is DragonBall Z. That's fine and dandy. However, it's not DragonBall Z for other people. Neither side is wrong for their opinion though. So don't cry blasphemy because people don't agree with your opinion.

[ohaimynameiserik]

So to call the DBZ FUNi dub I like NOT DBZ is blasphemous. That's just being close minded.

You do understand how ironic it is having these two sentences right next to each other?

[RazorX]

There's also the factor of this scene in terms of Vegeta's character development. Vegeta, who swore revenge against Goku and the others is swallowing his pride and begging Goku to defeat Freeza by a Saiyan's hand. Funi's Z dub is just someone alterting the script thinking it would be a good idea to make a cliche situation, it wasn't.

I should add though that I'm not satisfied with Sabat's acting, he did a better job than before but he doesn't convey the emotions strongly enough, Horikawa did a much better job.

Overall I'd say that JPKai version of Vegeta's death scene is slightly better than JP Z. Horikawa did a much better job in Kai, that's very evident to me. Kai also has a touching piece play while Vegeta is talking, then switches to an emotional piano piece after Vegeta dies, which combined help make the viewer feel sad at the loss of Vegeta. Z didn't have music until Vegeta died, when it came, it too was emotional.

[penguintruth]

Horikawa only did a better job sounding like Vegeta's dying in Kai because Horikawa himself sounds like he's dying. Why a guy who voice acts for a living would smoke is beyond me. Especially after his colleague Hirotaka Suzuoki died of lung cancer not too long ago.

[RazorX]

Horikawa's in his 50s isn't he? Too young to be thinking about death.

I enjoy Horikawa's Vegeta in Kai, he's doing a good job, liked his powerup to Super Vegeta.

But yea he should take concrete steps to stop smoking, for obvious reasons.

[Mewzard]

Yeah, from Shiryu and Shun to Tien and Vegeta, they worked together for quite a long time. It was a shame losing Suzuoki, and would also be such losing Horikawa.

As for the original dub vs Kai Dub...I have to go with the Kai dub, it was better in every single conceivable manner. Superior acting (then new actors vs decade long experienced actors, plus the improved voice direction), accurate scripts, more fitting music, it's excellent. I love the work Sabat put in as Vegeta, and can't wait to hear it uncut.

And I've seen my fair share of dubs too. From Ocean's first two seasons, to Funi's very rough season three and gradually improving later seasons. It was enjoyable as a kid, but I can push aside my nostalgia to see the better scene when I see it. I'm glad to finally get good versions of these scenes with the voices I love (which are now better than ever).

[SonEric84]

I actually happened upon the episode right before Freeza gave Vegeta the death-blow (I forgot to watch it when it aired, and haven't got around to catching it online yet) earlier and I wondered if they would accurately portray this moment. While it wasn't word for word, it was pretty darn close and gave the intended meaning of the speech. Sabat's delivery was leagues better this time around, but I still don't think I enjoyed it as much as some others here. I don't know, the crying just didn't work for me...maybe I need to rewatch it. Still, this is far more awesome than what we got many years ago.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

If what other people say about this place is being validated by an instance like this, then let it be validated. The original English treatment of this scene was not DBZ.

Sure, I could take footage of The Lord Of The Rings, and dub over Saruman's dialog saying that he was just a bad guy because Sauron killed his daddy and Frodo should should destroy the ring so he couldn't do it to anyone else.

But would that be The Lord Of The Rings? Hell no.

No, it would just be an alternate version of The Lord of the Rings, where Saruman's backstory was changed.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

If what other people say about this place is being validated by an instance like this, then let it be validated. The original English treatment of this scene was not DBZ.

Sure, I could take footage of The Lord Of The Rings, and dub over Saruman's dialog saying that he was just a bad guy because Sauron killed his daddy and Frodo should should destroy the ring so he couldn't do it to anyone else.

But would that be The Lord Of The Rings? Hell no.

No, it would just be an alternate version of The Lord of the Rings, where Saruman's backstory was changed.

Yeah... now, pretend that he dubbed over the entire movie, and messed with all of the dialogue. Is it still Lord of the Rings? Just because the footage is the same? I would say no, it's not. It's a bastardized version. Especially because Lord of the Rings is a series of books, I'd say the script is the most important part. At least with FUNi's dub of DBZ, the footage still matched the pictures of the manga panels, so it was kinda semi-DBZ. (The script was still unfaithful to Toriyama's story, however.)

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

If what other people say about this place is being validated by an instance like this, then let it be validated. The original English treatment of this scene was not DBZ.

Sure, I could take footage of The Lord Of The Rings, and dub over Saruman's dialog saying that he was just a bad guy because Sauron killed his daddy and Frodo should should destroy the ring so he couldn't do it to anyone else.

But would that be The Lord Of The Rings? Hell no.

No, it would just be an alternate version of The Lord of the Rings, where Saruman's backstory was changed.

Yeah... now, pretend that he dubbed over the entire movie, and messed with all of the dialogue. Is it still Lord of the Rings? Just because the footage is the same? I would say no, it's not. It's a bastardized version. Especially because Lord of the Rings is a series of books, I'd say the script is the most important part. At least with FUNi's dub of DBZ, the footage still matched the pictures of the manga panels, so it was kinda semi-DBZ. (The script was still unfaithful to Toriyama's story, however.)

I think ohaimynameiserik nailed it, honestly. Granted the DBZ was at least for the most part telling the same story as the Japanese (an alien boy grew up on Earth thinking he was human and gets embroiled in a series of evil plots to destroy the world/universe which he and his super-powered friends have to power up to fight and defeat), when it comes to moments like this where they're completely rewritten, no. It's not the same series. Consider much, much earlier Anime series' that were brought over to America - I'm talking 60's-80's, and even some of the 90's stuff. The English versions of these series' are irrefutably different than their originals. Take, for instance, Battle of the Planets or whatever it's called. Sure, it's got the same footage as the Japanese series, but is it the same show? Is Power Rangers the same as the Japanese series from which it gains its footage? The answer is a factual NO, and there's no arguing about it. No opinions. It's fact. You watch the two side by side and they're genuinely different series' despite using the same footage. As I said, DBZ is a far less extreme case than this, because for the most part the script is loosely telling the same basic story. Nonetheless, you lose nuances in things like character development or how certain scenes are viewed through a changed script and occasionally the altered music and voice portrayal. I wouldn't go as far as to say the FUNimation dub is 'not DBZ', but it's certainly not the same DBZ, or an accurate DBZ.

Let's all bear in mind that this is a cartoon based on a comic. The comic is the original in this situation, and the portrayals should be faithful to what the original author created. FUNimation can do certain things that might annoy some people and be enjoyed by others as long as it doesn't violate the characters created by the original author - for instance, the 'people popcorn' line I saw referenced in the 'scenes the dub did better' thread over in General Discussion. I admit I never liked lines like this because I'm loyal to the original and none too fond of FUNi's old habits of inserting corny jokes in wherever they could for the lulz. But does a line like that really desecrate the characters? No. Gokou is a childlike simpleton, and it's not out of character for him to say something like that. Vegeta's reaction is no less out of character; if Gokou said something so mind-blowingly stupid, I can totally see him reacting like that. So yeah, if you like the FUNi dub and certain little additions like that? Good for you. That's fine. It doesn't ruin the characters or change major elements of the story. But Vegeta's death? I'm sorry, but no. Zionist, I apologize if I started off a series of several posts that may have been harsher than necessary, but you are being incredibly stubborn. This is the type of moment that cannot be argued against - Kai dubbed it faithfully, while Z didn't. Z changed the script completely, fundamentally changing a core aspect of a main character that arguably comes to contradict how he is when he comes back to life - think about it.

"Freeza made me evil. Freeza's dead. Even though I hate him, Kakarotto is the one who killed Freeza, as I myself asked him to before I died. I'm magically alive again. SWEET, I'LL JUST GO BACK TO BEING EVIL, EVEN THOUGH I DIED CRYING OVER HOW I WISH I NEVER TURNED OUT THIS WAY, WOOT!!"

It makes no sense, because they changed his death scene. Vegeta stays evil because he's an evil bastard, period. Freeza didn't make him that way, and that makes their original version of this scene fundamentally and irrefutably wrong. You can prefer it if you wish - we have no right to disrespect your opinion on what you grew up on, are used to, and even if you prefer the altered version of the character to the original. I might think someone is off their rocker if they prefer M Night Shyamalan's The Last Airbender to the original cartoon, but if that's their opinion, I can't take that away from them. The thing is, they need to be able to recognize that even if they prefer the altered version, it is an altered portrayal, and isn't faithful to the original. Both in Japanese and English, Kai has one main goal - making more money off the franchi...I mean, being more faithful to the original material (this board needs a strikethrough tag). In the case of the Japanese, this means the editing of the footage to suit the Manga more closely. For the English, it's FUNimation making an effort to right the wrongs they've made over the past ten years. And they did that with this scene. You can say something like 'I prefer the original Z version because that's what I grew up with, and to me, that version of Vegeta's backstory is better than the original one.' But you cannot speak as though it's objective that Kai sucks, and Z was 'better'. 'Better' isn't a good word to use for opinions. Z is not 'better' because it's unfaithful to the original script and therefore alters a core aspect of a main character. That's a pretty grievous offense. I'm sorry if my previous post and those of others have started a flame war and we've insulted you, but please understand that you're being hypocritical and stubborn, and - perhaps most importantly - doing a poor job of backing up your opinions. Most of us against you are providing our reasons for why we think you're out of line. You seem to be doing little more than lashing back at us and contradicting your own statements (such as calling Kai Gokou's lines 'OOC' when they are, in fact, the original lines, yet defending the incorrect rewritten version just because you prefer it).

Could we all be a little more civil to one another when debating these things? Certainly. Are we capable of it? I'd like to think so, since most of us here are adults and we are 'the most authoritative Dragonball discussion board', with strict rules regarding spelling and grammar that, frankly, most (if not all) other DB boards I've seen just do not care about at all. We need to be able to discuss and debate without flaming each other - sometimes we slip up, but we're only human. However, it's been pointed out enough now that we should be more aware of ourselves and what we write, and be more mature than apparently some other communities perceive us over arguments like these. It's a valid argument to be had, and as Gaffer said, it is over an argument that's been going on since 1999 - long before Kai - so it's understandably going to be a heated one. Let's just try to be a bit more civil about it from here on out (I'm not trying to minimod or anything here; I feel partly responsible for setting things off and being personally addressed by Mike for my insensitive comments).

Anyways...new episode tonight, so hopefully this whole argument will fizzle out when we have new material to talk about.

[RazorX]

- for instance, the 'people popcorn' line

Goku: "Look Vegeta, people popcorn!"
Vegeta: "I can't believe he's a Saiyan."

I chuckled at that scene. Vegeta knows Goku's personality by now but still scoffs at the idea that a Saiyan can be like that.

[dbgtFO]

- for instance, the 'people popcorn' line

Goku: "Look Vegeta, people popcorn!"
Vegeta: "I can't believe he's a Saiyan."

I chuckled at that scene. Vegeta knows Goku's personality by now but still scoffs at the idea that a Saiyan can be like that.

FYI, Vegeta's line is :"What is he on?"