Killi System

[painfuldeath]

The Killi system could mean anything since we only have 2 accurate readings. If I were to put numbers to things I'd say that 1 Killi is closer to 2000 units in regular readings. The reasoning here comes from Babidi's statement that 300 killis are necessary to destroy a planet. Considering that Freeza destroyed planet Vegeta on his first form at about 500,000 units; 500,000 / 300 ~= 1667 units.

Still, I don't think it really means anything significant.

Actually that is a filler. In the filler Dabura also said that not even 4,000 Kiri would defeat him.

If Goku has 3,000 Kiri, certainly 1 Kiri is enough to destroy planets.

Good point. Sounds to me like kiris are like dB (decibels) then. In the dBu scale (used to measure sound pressure levels) for every 6dB increase the loudness doubles (likewise for every 6dB decrease the SPL drops by half). What makes this even more interesting is the dBu meters in analog audio equipment has a needle that moves from left to right and looks similar to what those kiri meters look like, just the other way around. I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama took the idea of a kiri system and a kiri meter from looking at audio equipment.

[p123]

I don't know about that. Why not just use some crazy random numbers? Like 800 and 56,000 or something like that? I think the implication is that SSJ is not as big of a boost as it was before. As we can see , the meter cannot read more than 3000 killi, so he still left a window for debate. Which sucks, but it's hard, it seems AT purposefully made the Buu Saga a read between the lines kind of mentality. Great for debating, terrible for trying to figure out what's right and wrong.

I think the implications of SSJ being smaller greatly outweigh the zero implications it stayed the same. The Buu Saga is truly a guessing game though, so I see why some argue the other way.

[Bussani]

I think the implications of SSJ being smaller greatly outweigh the zero implications it stayed the same. The Buu Saga is truly a guessing game though, so I see why some argue the other way.

If the increase had gotten that small, wouldn't Kaioken start looking quite appealing again?

[p123]

I think that's partly the reason AT doesn't flat out say SSJ is a small boost, and he leaves room for arguement. I think AT is using a smaller SSJ boost, but with the obvious problem occuring with Kaioken possibly being stronger, opted to not even try to confirm it.

I think Kaioken is just like out of ATs mind here, I don't think he wants Kaioken to effect his story, so he just like doesn't even accept it's existence anymore. Like it had been retconned out or something in his mind.

Obviously this is just a wild guess, no way to truly know, but that's the best I could do, trying to play mind reader and all.


I mean do you guys really think that Vegetto is using a 50x boost for his SSJ? Vegetto could possibly use KKx20, and IMO that would just be retarted powerful.


I don't even see SSJ3 Gotenks beating KKx20 Gotenks. On the fusion aspect, I think people are more likely to agree that Kaioken > SSJ. But that's as far as most will go, even though that POV isn't realistic because hey if fusion could do it like that, why not unfused? But, I've been rambling on enough. Definiltey something going on there with AT , the way he did everything I would think.

[Senzu_Bean]

I mean do you guys really think that Vegetto is using a 50x boost for his SSJ?

Of course. Well, actually no, since he is a Full Power SSJ his boost should still be larger.

On the fusion aspect, I think people are more likely to agree that Kaioken > SSJ.

I don't, but maybe that is only because I believe norm Gotenks and Vegetto are weaker than Piccolo.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't know about that. Why not just use some crazy random numbers? Like 800 and 56,000 or something like that? I think the implication is that SSJ is not as big of a boost as it was before. As we can see , the meter cannot read more than 3000 killi, so he still left a window for debate. Which sucks, but it's hard, it seems AT purposefully made the Buu Saga a read between the lines kind of mentality. Great for debating, terrible for trying to figure out what's right and wrong.

I'd like to quote Kanzentai on this one:

Incidentally, the numbers given for Yakon and Goku, 800 and 3,000, are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying "an enormous amount", similar to the way the number 40 is used throughout the Christian Bible. For instance, the 800 temples of Kyoto are proverbial, as are the 8 million gods of Shinto (8 million being 800 man in Japanese, that is 800x10,000), while in Buddhism the phrase "3,000 worlds" signifies all of creation.

Toriyama may pull out some crazy ideas, but most of them seem to have a bit of reasoning behind them even if we the readers don't actually catch on. I agree with Bussani that the system is probably nonlinear, as you can tell Toriyama dropped battle powers for a reason. I believe he went to an entirely new system was to try and keep people from comparing them to battle powers and the transformation boosts. The idea that he gave very few readings in the kiri system and the fact that the ones he did give actually have a meaning rather than being just random numbers seems to symbolize that he didn't want to complicate things. Comes off as a typical Toriyama way of saying "these guys are strong, and Goku is still REALLY strong". You guys are over-analyzing a system that was never meant to be anything extremely important, and knowing Toriyama he didn't think about the actual multiplier and picked the numbers for their meaning.

Of course. Well, actually no, since he is a Full Power SSJ his boost should still be larger.

Why would it be larger? SS and Full Power SS are the exact same form and have the exact same multiplier. Goku's boost before reaching Full Power SS is x50, its just that some of that power is used to maintain the transformation and isn't usable in battle. Afterward the full x50 boost can be used as desired in combat because the transformation has no stressors and is basically their natural form, so no ki is used to maintain it.

I don't, but maybe that is only because I believe norm Gotenks and Vegetto are weaker than Piccolo.

Sorry, but that is kinda laughable. Piccolo is useless before the power of Super Buu, while he thinks that base Gotenks might actually stand a chance against the Majin after the boys trained in the RoSaT. That alone proves that Piccolo acknowledges Gotenks' base form as being stronger than himself, and i'm sure no one doubts that Vegetto's base form is stronger than Gotenks'.

[Senzu_Bean]

Why would it be larger?

Full Power Super Saiyan = Maximum of Super Saiyan form = SSJ 3rd Grade w/o flaws. I'm not going to argue about it. You might not agree, fine.

... while he thinks that base Gotenks might actually stand a chance against the Majin after the boys trained in the RoSaT.

But he doesn't. Neither in Super Saiyan. And there is proof Super Saiyan Gotenks is even with Fat Buu after trained in the RoSaT.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Full Power Super Saiyan = Maximum of Super Saiyan form = SSJ 3rd Grade w/o flaws. I'm not going to argue about it. You might not agree, fine.

You're right, I don't agree because it is said that the grade forms are achieved by forcing more ki into the body while in the Super Saiyan state, which causes the the muscle mass to increase. Thus the regular Super Saiyan form shouldn't be able to hold more ki than the initial multiplier without that extra ki expanding the muscles which would bring us a cycle of returning back to the graded forms.

But he doesn't. Neither in Super Saiyan. And there is proof Super Saiyan Gotenks is even with Fat Buu after trained in the RoSaT.

You're right, Gotenks doesn't even come close to standing a chance until Super Saiyan 3. But if Piccolo was indeed more powerful than base Gotenks as you think, why did he think base Gotenks may still stand a chance? If he saw them fuse into their base form and was still under the impression that they couldn't become Super Saiyans unless they fused that way, then why did Piccolo let the boys fight if he was more powerful than them? Surely he would be a much better choice to fight Majin Buu than some kids that are weaker than him with unpolished skills. Yet he just watched Gotenks make a fool of himself and made no attempt to fight, he was just ready to destroy the RoSaT' door if Gotenks were to fail.

[Senzu_Bean]

You're right, I don't agree because it is said that the grade forms are achieved by forcing more ki into the body while in the Super Saiyan state, which causes the the muscle mass to increase. Thus the regular Super Saiyan form shouldn't be able to hold more ki than the initial multiplier without that extra ki expanding the muscles which would bring us a cycle of returning back to the graded forms.

That only happens cause they aren't used to the form. It is the same case as Freeza. He only increases in muscle mass when powering-up cause he isn't used to his true form.

But if Piccolo was indeed more powerful than base Gotenks as you think, why did he think base Gotenks stood a chance?

Same reason why he believed they stood a chance but in fact they didn't. It doesn't matter really. Trunks before said they would be even with Buu without Super Saiyan 3. Since they didn't sensed Buu's new power and aren't in fact even with this new Buu one can conclude Trunks was referring to Fat Buu.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

That only happens cause they aren't used to the form. It is the same case as Freeza. He only increases in muscle mass when powering-up cause he isn't used to his true form.

There is absolutely no evidence to support that.

Same reason why he believed they stood a chance but in fact they didn't. It doesn't matter really. Trunks before said they would be even with Buu without Super Saiyan 3. Since they didn't sensed Buu's new power and aren't in fact even with this new Buu one can conclude Trunks was referring to Fat Buu.

You are completely ignoring the other half of my argument, the side that is most important in the discussion. This isn't really about which form of Buu Gotenks stacks up against, its about Piccolo compared to Gotenks, and you haven't countered any of my statements or questions on the subject. Its faily simple:

Piccolo watches the boys fuse as base Gotenks and is unaware that not only can he transform after fusing now, but has also obtained Super Saiyan 3. Yet after watching their fusion, he still thinks Gotenks can beat Buu and doesn't step in to fight himself. Why would Piccolo be willing to let Gotenks fight in base form against Buu without stepping in if he is more powerful than the brat's current level?


If Piccolo is forced to resort to this, I can almost guarantee that he would have stepped in already if he though he was more capable than base Gotenks.

[Senzu_Bean]

There is absolutely no evidence to support that.

There is no evidence for what you believe yet that doesn't seem a problem to you.

Anyhow both Goku and Vegeta states this to Freeza and Trunks, when explaining FPSSJ, respectively.

Why would Piccolo be willing to let Gotenks fight in base form against Buu without stepping in if he is more powerful than the brat's current level?

I already posted above. Not to mention Piccolo couldn't even know Gotenks' full power until the boy attacked.

Anyways, I'm tiring of arguing.

[p123]

Base Vegettto and Base Gotenks weaker than Piccolo? Jesus.


I have


Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre


So we definitley won't agree.


Also, Gokan is suggested to be able to beat Buutenks in base form if he had been able to fuse.


Base is implied to be uber strong in the Buu Saga, the only way to make that happen would be a decreasing multiplier caused by MSSJ.

But, you don't have to take those implications seriously, but I think it's odd not to take them seriously. But perhaps that's just me.

[Senzu_Bean]

But perhaps that's just me.

I believe that is only you, indeed. Most of those implications you mention are ridiculous in my own opinion and they aren't necessarily popular in here.

[p123]

Agreed, most people here favor 50x boost or varying boosts. And yes a lot of your opinions seem ridicolous to me as well. We are on opposite ends of the spectrum it appears.

[rereboy]

When Trunks and Goten fused the first time and formed base Gotenks, besides everyone being amazed at their power, they actually survived a battle with Fat Buu, even though it wasn`t shown in the manga.

So, it wouldn`t shock me if they were stronger than Piccolo at base.

But base Vegetto was definitely stronger than Piccolo since SSJ Vegetto was much stronger than Super Buu with the powers of Piccolo, Mystic Gohan, Trunks and Goten.

[p123]

Base Gotenks Pre Rosat being weaker than Majin Vegeta doesn't make sense. Trunks/Goten are well aware of their power and Vegeta's power. Sure they are cocky, but they aren't stupid. Kuririn thinks that Gotenks has a chance. He also watched Vegeta get his butt whooped.


Base Gotenks being weaker than Majin Vegeta would require some ridicolous logic to make it realistic. It's just not an option IMO.

[rereboy]

Base Gotenks Pre Rosat being weaker than Majin Vegeta doesn't make sense. Trunks/Goten are well aware of their power and Vegeta's power. Sure they are cocky, but they aren't stupid. Kuririn thinks that Gotenks has a chance. He also watched Vegeta get his butt whooped.


Base Gotenks being weaker than Majin Vegeta would require some ridicolous logic to make it realistic. It's just not an option IMO.

Now, that is exaggerating. That would mean that Gotenks in his base is stronger than an SSJ2, and not a simple SSJ2, but a SSJ2 that was stated to be stronger than Cell games SSJ2 Gohan.

If Gotenks was that powerful at base then his SSJ3 would simply be overkill.

Base Gotenks might be stronger than Piccolo, who was a good deal stronger than basic SSJs and weaker than mastered SSJs, but making him stronger than SSJ2 (Majin) Vegeta, is exaggerating, I think.

[Fox666]

I don't really see from where "Base Gotenks > X character" come from. For me that's way too vague and meaningless.

The manga doesn't tell anything about base Gotenks, except that he is completely useless against Majin Buu, however he is cocky enough to fight without actually transforming.

Either way, want a proof that Piccolo is stronger than the base saiyans? After Gotenks fusion times out, Buu takes the form of Piccolo, and I believe Goku even commented that Piccolo's power overcome that of the kids.

And it should be the combined power since it's Piccolo x 2 saiyans and yet Buu take the form of Piccolo.

[rereboy]

And it should be the combined power since it's Piccolo x 2 saiyans and yet Buu take the form of Piccolo.

I agree that Piccolo is stronger than any of the kids individually but not necessarily their combined power.

Buu wouldn`t have half of his body with Goten`s clothes and the other with Trunks`s clothes if their combined power was stronger than Piccolo.

Buu just takes the clothes of the strongest fighter he absorbed, the dominant power.

[p123]

It's called common sense. Unless you want the manga to use ZERO logic, Gotenks must be that strong. Unless you endorse this line of thinking.....

Hey I think I can beat Fat Buu. Even though I can sense that my power is far weaker than Vegeta's who was nothing to Buu, I am still confident! Also, Kuririn can sense that my power is far below Vegeta's as well, and he is convinced by my utter confidence, despite how weak everyone is aware of. I am so confident in my power for no apparent reason and Kuririn is as well ! Yes!


Hey I think I can take Super Buu! Previously my SSJ form was nowhere a match for him. But now, for no apparent reason, I am utterly confident in my newfound base power. Which is way weaker than my SSJ power, yet I'm still confident! Piccolo also notices that my new base power is nowhere near my previous SSJ power and is convinved as well bny my confidence. I am so confident in my power for no apparent reason and Piccolo is as well!