Gohan and Goku

[uzuni]

I'm currently reading through the Cell Games in the manga, and I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely no way FPSSJ Gohan > FPSSJ Goku. Whenever Goku states that his "successor" would be stronger than both him and Cell, he's simply referring to Gohan's potential in the SSJ2 state, not his Full Power SSJ. Even after Gohan reveals his power, there's not one comment about him surpassing Goku or the like. There are simply comments about how much he's grown (understandable when they're comparing him to what he was before) and Cell's comment about Goku not entirely bluffing, which only implies that he's much stronger than Cell thought he would have been.

[Savage68]

Whenever Goku states that his "successor" would be stronger than both him and Cell, he's simply referring to Gohan's potential in the SSJ2 state, not his Full Power SSJ.

There would be no way for you to prove that, and it sounds like grasping at straws, to be honest. Gohan's latent power was distinguished from his accessible power.

There are simply comments about how much he's grown (understandable when they're comparing him to what he was before) and Cell's comment about Goku not entirely bluffing, which only implies that he's much stronger than Cell thought he would have been.

No it doesn't. It implies that Goku was correct in hyping up Gohan as the strongest opposition to Cell. After only two or three pages, Cell declares that Gohan was incredible and later on says that he was stronger than calculated. After being smacked around by Cell for a bit, it's revealed that Gohan hadn't even lost any ki, whereas Goku was expending his ki left and right with multiple attacks, and to no avail.

[dbgtFO]

I'm currently reading through the Cell Games in the manga, and I've come to the conclusion that there's absolutely no way FPSSJ Gohan > FPSSJ Goku. Whenever Goku states that his "successor" would be stronger than both him and Cell, he's simply referring to Gohan's potential in the SSJ2 state, not his Full Power SSJ. Even after Gohan reveals his power, there's not one comment about him surpassing Goku or the like. There are simply comments about how much he's grown (understandable when they're comparing him to what he was before) and Cell's comment about Goku not entirely bluffing, which only implies that he's much stronger than Cell thought he would have been.

Don't forget the fact, that Gohan was far from impressed by Goku's 100% power and thought, that he was holding back.

[uzuni]

Whenever Goku states that his "successor" would be stronger than both him and Cell, he's simply referring to Gohan's potential in the SSJ2 state, not his Full Power SSJ.

There would be no way for you to prove that, and it sounds like grasping at straws, to be honest. Gohan's latent power was distinguished from his accessible power.

There are simply comments about how much he's grown (understandable when they're comparing him to what he was before) and Cell's comment about Goku not entirely bluffing, which only implies that he's much stronger than Cell thought he would have been.

No it doesn't. It implies that Goku was correct in hyping up Gohan as the strongest opposition to Cell. After only two or three pages, Cell declares that Gohan was incredible and later on says that he was stronger than calculated. After being smacked around by Cell for a bit, it's revealed that Gohan hadn't lost any ki at all, whereas Goku was expending his only ki left and right with multiple ki attacks, to no avail.

Sure there is. Vol 18/34 Chapter 210 pg 122:

Cell: "You couldn't kill me in a hundred years. Am I wrong?"

Gohan: "I'm...beginning to understand...why dad said only I can defeat you. Ever since I was little...when I get mad, I lose control and go berserk...I think...that's what dad's counting on...

And there are plenty more examples of that if you still need me to further prove my point.

No, it doesn't imply that. Otherwise Cell would have stated that. Instead, he says how much of a joke it is to think that Gohan could kill him, and that "he'll kill him before he can land a blow." Rather a lot of confidence to be fighting someone stronger than Goku wouldn't you think? Not to mention none of the Z fighters state anything about his supposed superiority to Goku.

And please tell me where Cell declares Gohan was incredible? I think calling him a "quick little rodent" and incredible are two entirely different things.

First of all, Goku never got smacked around by Cell, like Gohan. Secondly, all the Z fighters thought he had died, so surely his Ki must have wavered significantly. And lastly, don't you think Cell would treat a stronger opponent with more respect than Goku? I don't think calling him a "conceited whelp" really proves much of your point.

Also, forgive me, being new to this forum, I couldn't really figure out how to divide your quotes. However, up to "And there are plenty more examples..." is the answer to your first quote, and the rest after that is the answer to your next one.

[Savage68]

Vol 18/34 Chapter 210 pg 122

This isn't significant to me, because I'm not citing Viz.

Gohan: "I'm...beginning to understand...why dad said only I can defeat you. Ever since I was little...when I get mad, I lose control and go berserk...I think...that's what dad's counting on...

I'm unsure of what this is a response to, but "defeating Cell" is not tantamount to "performing better against Cell than Goku did." Foes with regenerative capabilities always require an overwhelming amount of force to truly kill.

Instead, he says how much of a joke it is to think that Gohan could kill him, and that "he'll kill him before he can land a blow." Rather a lot of confidence to be fighting someone stronger than Goku wouldn't you think?

Yes, because it's the typical villain arrogance that we've come to expect from the most arrogant and moronic villain that there is: Perfect Cell. He also believed that he was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, despite an utter godstomp while at 100% of his power and even attempted to go beyond that in the hopes of victory, yet was still crushed. Since when do we take obvious neck-talking from baddies to mean anything significant? If anything, it's the opposite that counts most, because for a jerk like Cell to compliment another's power -- you can bet that it was a sincere compliment.

And please tell me where Cell declares Gohan was incredible? I think calling him a "quick little rodent" and incredible are two entirely different things.

I don't even know when anyone was called a "quick little rodent."

First of all, Goku never got smacked around by Cell, like Gohan.

My point. Gohan got smacked around by Cell because he could afford to, and took no damage. Goku tried his hand at killing Cell, fought tooth-and-nail, took heavy damage, and still surrendered because he was outclassed.

[dbgtFO]

First of all, Goku never got smacked around by Cell, like Gohan. Secondly, all the Z fighters thought he had died, so surely his Ki must have wavered significantly. And lastly, don't you think Cell would treat a stronger opponent with more respect than Goku? I don't think calling him a "conceited whelp" really proves much of your point.

1. Gohan didn't want to fight Cell and basically took a beating, since we later see he was capable of dodging one of Cell's blows and then counter with a kick to the head, which made Cell drop to the floor, without instantly recovering a feat Goku was incapable of doing. Also Goku got smacked around by Cell in the chapter, where Cell fired that Kamehameha at Goku.
2. They weren't concentrating, since Goku called out Cell on it and Piccolo being an excellent ki senser was unable to feel it as well, since he was biased.
3. Neither Piccolo, Vegeta or any other than Goku had confidence in Gohan's power, before he powered up.
Even though, they all have seen Gohan surpass them, when he gets angry enough.
And Cell does state, that Goku wasn't total bluffing, but Cell is just as biased, as the other characters, since he won't believe in a child being that strong, just look at him, when he faced SSJ 2 Gohan.

And still Gohan was NOT impressed by Goku's full power, and actually thought he wasn't fighting at his MAX, implying he was stronger, than that.

[uzuni]

Vol 18/34 Chapter 210 pg 122

This isn't significant to me, because I'm not citing Viz.

Gohan: "I'm...beginning to understand...why dad said only I can defeat you. Ever since I was little...when I get mad, I lose control and go berserk...I think...that's what dad's counting on...

I'm unsure of what this is a response to, but "defeating Cell" is not tantamount to "performing better against Cell than Goku did." Foes with regenerative capabilities always require an overwhelming amount of force to truly kill.

Instead, he says how much of a joke it is to think that Gohan could kill him, and that "he'll kill him before he can land a blow." Rather a lot of confidence to be fighting someone stronger than Goku wouldn't you think?

Yes, because it's the typical villain arrogance that we've come to expect from the most arrogant and moronic villain that there is: Perfect Cell. He also believed that he was stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, despite an utter godstomp while at 100% of his power and even attempted to go beyond that in the hopes of victory, yet was still crushed. Since when do we take obvious neck-talking from baddies to mean anything significant? If anything, it's the opposite that counts most, because for a jerk like Cell to compliment another's power -- you can bet that it was a sincere compliment.

And please tell me where Cell declares Gohan was incredible? I think calling him a "quick little rodent" and incredible are two entirely different things.

I don't even know when anyone was called a "quick little rodent."

First of all, Goku never got smacked around by Cell, like Gohan.

My point. Gohan got smacked around by Cell because he could afford to, and took no damage. Goku tried his hand at killing Cell, fought tooth-and-nail, took heavy damage, and still surrendered because he was outclassed.

And that's exactly the reason why I'm citing specific pages and chapters. Because you're giving me completely contradicting arguments.

That first quote is a response to you saying there would be no way for me to prove that Goku was referring to Gohan's SSJ2 potential to beat Cell. I just did.

Typical villain arrogance? And why did he only show this through Gohan and not Goku? Could it be because he was unsatisfied with Gohan's powers in comparison to Goku's? Yes, I think that's it. When did he ever compliment Gohan's power?!?!?! You're driving me nuts here!!! The only one he complemented was Goku. And if you'd like, I'll give you direct quotes from the manga for that as well.

As for the rodent comment, I could give you the page, panel, and bubble it's spoken in.

Could afford to? Cell tried smacking Goku around many times, and with no avail, as you would put it.

[Godo]

Cell: "You couldn't kill me in a hundred years. Am I wrong?"

Gohan: "I'm...beginning to understand...why dad said only I can defeat you. Ever since I was little...when I get mad, I lose control and go berserk...I think...that's what dad's counting on...

Of course! When Gohan wasn't even trying, it would make sense that he wouldn't be able to defeat Cell in one hundred years.

No, it doesn't imply that. Otherwise Cell would have stated that. Instead, he says how much of a joke it is to think that Gohan could kill him, and that "he'll kill him before he can land a blow." Rather a lot of confidence to be fighting someone stronger than Goku wouldn't you think?

Again, Gohan didn't have fighting spirit. And it's not like he ever thought of even Goku to defeat him.
Much of this also lies into Cell's preconception that Gohan, a kid, would never be able to defeat him.
And also, Goku was a fun opponent to fight, since he was experienced and also quite the fighter.

Not to mention none of the Z fighters state anything about his supposed superiority to Goku.

Only Goku knew of Gohan's full power. And he didn't bring it forth in his fight with Cell.
And everyone's reaction of Gohan claiming that Goku wasn't probably even trying hard indicates that due to his high power, Goku and Cell's fight seemed like child's play.
Even Vegeta reacted to Gohan's comment.

And please tell me where Cell declares Gohan was incredible? I think calling him a "quick little rodent" and incredible are two entirely different things.

Cell mentioned several times that Gohan was getting stronger and stronger, but that it wasn't enough (a mere taunt if you will) to defeat him. He was impressed with Gohan's rise in power and encouraged him into bringing it all out. Which was the reason for why he released the Cell Jrs.

First of all, Goku never got smacked around by Cell, like Gohan.

Gohan wasn't trying to fight. Goku was.

Secondly, all the Z fighters thought he had died, so surely his Ki must have wavered significantly.

I think that it was merely because of Cell's ki rather than Gohan's ki. Everyone expected (from the previous fight) that Gohan wasn't able to take it, since Goku wouldn't be able to.
Aaaand, again, Gohan wasn't even near his full power yet.

And lastly, don't you think Cell would treat a stronger opponent with more respect than Goku? I don't think calling him a "conceited whelp" really proves much of your point.

Did any villain ever in Dragonball treat a mere kid with respect? Even though they were strong?
Freeza sure didn't, even though Gohan was a threat to his 2nd and possibly his 3rd form.
Tao Pai Pai didn't see Goku as a threat, and neither did Piccolo Daimao.
It's all about him being a kid, which is shown both on the commentator's comments, and also everyone's reaction when he is sent out to fight Cell. Even Piccolo says that Gohan is "just a kid".

[uzuni]

First of all, Goku never got smacked around by Cell, like Gohan. Secondly, all the Z fighters thought he had died, so surely his Ki must have wavered significantly. And lastly, don't you think Cell would treat a stronger opponent with more respect than Goku? I don't think calling him a "conceited whelp" really proves much of your point.

1. Gohan didn't want to fight Cell and basically took a beating, since we later see he was capable of dodging one of Cell's blows and then counter with a kick to the head, which made Cell drop to the floor, without instantly recovering a feat Goku was incapable of doing. Also Goku got smacked around by Cell in the chapter, where Cell fired that Kamehameha at Goku.
2. They weren't concentrating, since Goku called out Cell on it and Piccolo being an excellent ki senser was unable to feel it as well, since he was biased.
3. Neither Piccolo, Vegeta or any other than Goku had confidence in Gohan's power, before he powered up.
Even though, they all have seen Gohan surpass them, when he gets angry enough.
And Cell does state, that Goku wasn't total bluffing, but Cell is just as biased, as the other characters, since he won't believe in a child being that strong, just look at him, when he faced SSJ 2 Gohan.

And still Gohan was NOT impressed by Goku's full power, and actually thought he wasn't fighting at his MAX, implying he was stronger, than that.

1. Goku was incapable of doing? How about blowing off Cell's torso and then dropping him to the floor? I think that's slightly more impressive.
2. You can't argue with that. Not a strong enough point. Merely an excuse.
3. They still didn't show confidence. Piccolo was ready to jump in the fight.
4. The point about Gohan not being impressed is a strong one, and difficult to argue against. However, I can counter it by saying that Gohan was always used to seeing his father fighting at a level leagues beyond his own. And now, being almost toe-to-toe with him, and not realizing how much stronger he's gotten, has a hard time believing that he's so close to his dad's power.

[Savage68]

Post.

Alright, well, I can see where this is headed and I don't have any ibuprofen on hand, so I'll just my end my part of this discussion before things get any more convoluted.

[dbgtFO]

1. Goku was incapable of doing? How about blowing off Cell's torso and then dropping him to the floor? I think that's slightly more impressive.
2. You can't argue with that. Not a strong enough point. Merely an excuse.
3. They still didn't show confidence. Piccolo was ready to jump in the fight.
4. The point about Gohan not being impressed is a strong one, and difficult to argue against. However, I can counter it by saying that Gohan was always used to seeing his father fighting at a level leagues beyond his own. And now, being almost toe-to-toe with him, and not realizing how much stronger he's gotten, has a hard time believing that he's so close to his dad's power.

1. Yeah only by using Kamehameha, Goku didn't do it with his physical strength like Gohan.
2. I don't care about that anyway, since it doesn't say anything about his strength and Savage68 already stated what there is to say.
3. This has been covered by Godo.
4. Godo covered this.
Face it noone is going to get convinced, that Gohan is less, than his father at the Cell Games. All implications and statements point toward Gohan being significantly stronger, than Goku.
And with that I'm out.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I don't even see how this is being discussed.

Toriyama drops hints about Gohan being stronger than Goku from the moment they walk out of the RoSaT, mostly from Gohan's point of view (though we also have Goku's "it will be okay somehow" moments). Gohan has grown up with his dad being the unbeatable hero and he automatically assumes that his father is stronger than him. So when Goku shows off half his max to Karin and and even after Goku finishes fighting Cell, Gohan is left in a "WTF,...that's it?! You weren't trying!" stupor. Toriyama even goes as far as to make sure that almost all of Gohan's expressions during Goku's displays of power are those of a fighter who is unimpressed, leaving Gohan thinking "Dad, why are you holding back?".

And this is without even bringing up SS2/RAGE BOOSTz.

[uzuni]

I dunno, seems to me like there's more evidence supporting Goku's stronger than Gohan, rather than the other way around.

And I'll post one more point I haven't brought up yet. After Cell trashes Gohan around, he says, "Son Goku!! Enough of these games! Eat your senzu and fight me once more!!" This clearly implies that Cell doesn't consider Gohan a worthy enough opponent for his power, in comparison to Goku.

[the_abberration]

I dunno, seems to me like there's more evidence supporting Goku's stronger than Gohan, rather than the other way around.

Piccolo, Gohan has more power than I can believe.

By Goku's own admission, it seems to me like that's clear cut proof from Goku himself, stating without any doubt that Gohan is stronger than him.

[Nazi Cola]

And I'll post one more point I haven't brought up yet. After Cell trashes Gohan around, he says, "Son Goku!! Enough of these games! Eat your senzu and fight me once more!!" This clearly implies that Cell doesn't consider Gohan a worthy enough opponent for his power, in comparison to Goku.

Because Goku actually fought while Gohan was being a pacifist.

[uzuni]

I dunno, seems to me like there's more evidence supporting Goku's stronger than Gohan, rather than the other way around.

Piccolo, Gohan has more power than I can believe.

By Goku's own admission, it seems to me like that's clear cut proof from Goku himself, stating without any doubt that Gohan is stronger than him.

Please feel free to explain how that quote has anything to do with Gohan being stronger than Goku? In what possible way could you have interpreted it to have come to that conclusion?

Also, when exactly did Goku say that?

[Savage68]

Why are you being so defensive?

[Senzu_Bean]

Goku: I did the best I could against Cell. It is your turn Gohan.

Gohan: You really went full power against Cell? LOL! You're weak, dad.

That is basically Gohan's reaction when Goku said he went all out against Cell, so...

[dbgtFO]

Goku: I did the best I could against Cell. It is your turn Gohan.

Gohan: You really went full power against Cell? LOL! You're weak, dad.

That is basically Gohan's reaction when Goku said he went all out against Cell, so...

Pretty much.
Also Goku asked Gohan, if he just saw Goku do something he himself wouldn't be capable of. In my version the dialouge is like this:

Goku: "Have you just seen me do something, you couldn't have done?"
Gohan: "..." "No, but none of you were fighting at full power right?"
Goku: "Perhaps Cell didn't. But I did. You thought I was holding back?"
Gohan: "..."
Piccolo: "Did you really Gohan?"
Gohan: "..Yes."
This pretty much seals the deal for me, if it didn't already...

[the_abberration]

Please feel free to explain how that quote has anything to do with Gohan being stronger than Goku? In what possible way could you have interpreted it to have come to that conclusion?

Also, when exactly did Goku say that?

Uhh..How did you just finish reading it and not see it?? It's in volume 18(DBZ) / 34(DB)

He says it, right after he surrenders to Cell. You know after he admits to Cell that he was no match for him. Then he asks to select the fighter that will beat him (implying that this fighter is stronger). Then he says:

Because if he loses, there'll be nobody else who can beat you

Now he's outright saying that Gohan is stronger. I mean otherwise it would be "If he loses then I'll fight you again because I'm stronger", wouldn't it??

Cell then asks point blank:

Do you mean to tell me there's someone stronger than you and me?!

Now if Goku is stronger than Gohan we know the answer right?

Yup.

See Goku says n..err yup. So he's admitting that someone is stronger than the both of them.

Cell wants to know who this guy is and Goku says a name:

You're up...Gohan!!

So Goku calls his own nam...oh wait it's Gohan...So Gohan was the one who is stronger than Goku and Cell. Gohan was the one that Goku told Cell was stronger than the both of them.

Piccolo however, doubts this by saying:

He's grown remarkably, but this is Cell-against whom not even you stood a chance!!

Hmm. so why again, would Goku pick Gohan to fight Cell when Goku himself admitted defeat.

Piccolo, Gohan has more power than I can believe.

Oh yeah..For some odd reason Goku knows that Gohan is stronger than him. But how could he? It's not like they trained in some room for a long period of time where Goku could get a glimpse of the mysterious power that Gohan has and then decide that the fate of the world would rest on Gohan. Oh wait..HE DID!!

In all seriousness though. This is not like an issue where their statements are ambiguous and there are hints dropped (like Vegeta & SSJ2). Goku comments on it directly. Cell directly asks the question and Goku gives a straightforward answer. Piccolo even questions it and Goku explains how and why he knows Gohan is stronger.