Kaioshin

[Senzu_Bean]

He held back a Super Saiyan 2 with his magic...

He didn't.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He held back a Super Saiyan 2 with his magic...

He didn't.

Yes, he did. He paralyzed him, with the same (or similar) kind of magic that Gurd did to Gohan and Kuririn, who were far stronger than him, or the same kind of magic Chaozu used to paralyze Goku.

[Senzu_Bean]

He held back a Super Saiyan 2 with his magic...

He didn't.

Yes, he did. He paralyzed him, with the same (or similar) kind of magic that Gurd did to Gohan and Kuririn, who were far stronger than him, or the same kind of magic Chaozu used to paralyze Goku.

Yet Chaozu couldn't paralyze Nappa because the gap between their powers was huge.

And Gurd doesn't use magic.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Yet Chaozu couldn't paralyze Nappa because the gap between their powers was huge.

And Gurd doesn't use magic.

But when Chaozu paralyzed Goku, there was still a gap nonetheless, wasn't there? Same with Gurd against Gohan and Kuririn. You could just say that the gap between Kaioshin and SSj2 Gohan was smaller than the one between Chaozu and Nappa, or Kaioshin has more advanced magic abilities than Chaozu (considering he's a god).

And how do you know Gurd doesn't use magic? His, Chaozu and Kaioshin's psychic abilities looked virtually the same. And psychic abilities to me mean magic. You don't have to call that, but my point still stands.

[Senzu_Bean]

But when Chaozu paralyzed Goku, there was still a gap nonetheless, wasn't there?

Chaotzu didn't hold Goku. He merely stopped him for a split second, far different than what Kaioshin did.

Same with Gurd against Gohan and Kuririn.

Gurd doesn't use magic. He is a mutant. He was born with the ability, like fishes are born with the ability to breath underwater.

[Piccolo Daimao]

But when Chaozu paralyzed Goku, there was still a gap nonetheless, wasn't there?

Chaotzu didn't hold Goku. He merely stopped him for a split second, far different than what Kaioshin did.

He was able to hold Kuririn for longer than a split second--what makes you think he couldn't do that to Goku? Especially since all it needed was to paralyze Goku momentarily so Tenshinhan could hit him, especially when one hit could send Goku flying out the ring. It's not any different to what Gurd or Kaioshin did. Nothing was implied that Chaozu ever had any trouble paralyzing Goku for longer than he needed to because of the gap in their strength.

Same with Gurd against Gohan and Kuririn.

Gurd doesn't use magic. He is a mutant. He was born with the ability, like fishes are born with the ability to breath underwater.

Baseless assumption. And besides, it doesn't make it any different from Kaioshin. Kaioshin could've been born with the ability too, since he's a god. We don't know anything about Gurd other than the fact that he has low battle strength, but uses psychic powers.

And I'll re-iterate my previous argument: Kaioshin believes that Gohan can beat Boo and tells Kibito that he hasn't seen what the Saiyans can do. Now, I know you or someone else will say "But he's seen Gohan as a SSj2, it's an inconsistency!" That's different from actually seeing someone fight, especially when you consider Kaioshin saying that it was hard to paralzye Gohan when he wasn't even at full power. It's quite possible that the ki Kaioshin felt from SSj Gohan fighting was stronger than the ki he felt from SSj2 Gohan, just standing there and not even at full power. And we know that someone fighting is stronger than just someone standing there (or not even fighting seriously), because Gohan only sensed Videl when she started fighting that thug and Yamcha was astounded at SSj Goku's ki, when he was "not even fighting".

And this is a bit controversial, but also the fact that no-one has been able to pull out the Z-Sword, until Gohan does as a Super Saiyan. Now, I also know someone will say "That's different, Kibito was suggested to be a challenge to base Gohan, but he couldn't hold the Z-Sword", but I think that's bullshit. 9/10 ki always goes hand-in-hand strength. This isn't a "SSj-G3" situation--we have no reason to assume that Kibito somehow has strong ki, yet is far weaker than Gohan.

Whether you like it or not, everything in the story points to SSj Gohan being stronger than Kaioshin.

[Senzu_Bean]

Nothing was implied that Chaozu ever had any trouble paralyzing Goku for longer than he needed to because of the gap in their strength.

I never said he did.

Baseless assumption.

The Daizenshuu does classify the technique as special. It isn't magic just like Kaioshin technique.

Whether you like it or not, everything in the story points to SSj Gohan being stronger than Kaioshin.

Definitely no.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Nothing was implied that Chaozu ever had any trouble paralyzing Goku for longer than he needed to because of the gap in their strength.

I never said he did.

You were saying that Chaozu only held Goku for a split second, which I took as you saying that he couldn't hold him for longer (like he did with Kuririn) because of a gap in strength.

Baseless assumption.

The Daizenshuu does classify the technique as special. It isn't magic.

OK then.

Whether you like it or not, everything in the story points to SSj Gohan being stronger than Kaioshin.

Definitely no.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. I hope you read my points and see why I think that the story points to SSj Gohan being stronger than Kaioshin.

[Senzu_Bean]

You were saying that Chaozu only held Goku for a split second, which I took as you saying that he couldn't hold him for longer (like he did with Kuririn) because of a gap in strength.

I never said it. I was merely correcting you about what Chaotzu did.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. I hope you read my points and see why I think that the story points to SSj Gohan being stronger than Kaioshin.

Yes, I understand your view point.

[Piccolo Daimao]

You were saying that Chaozu only held Goku for a split second, which I took as you saying that he couldn't hold him for longer (like he did with Kuririn) because of a gap in strength.

I never said it. I was merely correcting you about what Chaotzu did.

OK. I just saw it as the same thing since Chaozu paralyzed Kuririn, and when Chaozu did it to Goku, it was just for a shorter time.

[Fox666]

Chaozu did not hold Goku because everybody in the tournament would have noticed

However, I don't think that all paralyzing technique is the same. Gurdo can do some good effect on Kuririn and Gohan despite being of lower power

In other words, Kaioshin does not necessary need to be near Gohan's level to paralyze him

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chaozu did not hold Goku because everybody in the tournament would have noticed

I don't understand what you mean. Chaozu paralzyed Goku for a split second, when Goku and Tenshinhan was rushing at each other to attack, so of course nobody would've noticed.

[Senzu_Bean]

In other words, Kaioshin does not necessary need to be near Gohan's level to paralyze him

Nobody here thinks that.

Chaozu did not hold Goku because everybody in the tournament would have noticed

I don't understand what you mean. Chaozu paralzyed Goku for a split second, when Goku and Tenshinhan was rushing at each other to attack, so of course nobody would've noticed.

He is saying if Chaotzu have done what he did against Krillin, which is holding him for more than one second, everybody would notice, contrary to what actually happened.

[Piccolo Daimao]

He is saying if Chaotzu have done what he did against Krillin, which is holding him for more than one second, everybody would notice, contrary to what actually happened.

Well, obviously. But Chaozu paralyzed Goku for a split second when Goku and Tenshinhan were rushing at each other. Since the two of them are so fast, everyone else would've just said, "Oh, Tenshinhan was just faster than him". Chaozu was putting his hands out on the arena and paralyzing Kuririn for a considerably longer time, so, of course, everybody would notice.

[dbgtFO]

And about taking hits from Buu, I agree that the same amount of power was used, but he isn't doing better, than Gohan in any way.

He recovered and began attempting his counterattack faster than Gohan, after being smashed with three attacks. Gohan was only smashed with one. And he dispersed a big "meant-to-kill" ki blast that was COMPLETELY overwhelming while heavily injured. If that doesn't constitute "doing better," what does?

You know what, you're right, he did perform better in that fight.
How strong he is in my mind:
10 times stronger, than Freeza at least.
He is also stronger than Piccolo(although he first gave up, when he found out Kaioshin could read his mind, let's just take it as fact).
Weaker, than SSJ Gohan. Here he admits, that he if he had known, that the Super Saiyans were far above him he would have used another way. fith panel
The other way is shown to be the Z-Sword.
This would mean, that he is in fact weaker, than SSJ Gohan, and Kibito is weaker, than base Gohan, since it was all about power/strength anyways, unless both the VIZBIG version and Danish version are wrong...

[Senzu_Bean]

Kaioshin never attempted to released the Z sword and he never, ever used anything but Super Saiyan to describe what Goku and co. do when turning blond.

[dbgtFO]

Kaioshin never attempted to released the Z sword and he never, ever used anything but Super Saiyan to describe what Goku and co. do when turning blond.

If Kaioshin was just as strong, as Gohan don't you think he would have tried himself?
And yeah you're right about the second part.

[Senzu_Bean]

I don't think so. It is not like every Kaioshin that existed tried to release the Z sword, specially the younger ones.

[dbgtFO]

I don't think so. It is not like every Kaioshin that existed tried to release the Z sword, specially the younger ones.

True, but he thought SSJ Gohan could do it and didn't think he himself could.
Even though he never tries to hold it or release it, I think that should be enough proof.

[Senzu_Bean]

Even though he never tries to hold it or release it, I think that should be enough proof.

If Gohan can hold it in his base then for sure Kaioshin can spin it like nothing.