deleted

[p123]

It's spotty on both ends.

Dabura being anywhere near Perfect Cell is just crazy. Then being way way stronger than Perfect Cell makes less sense. Especially when Dabura's initial strength is not too far off Kibito's strength who is not too far off from Base Gohan's strength.

Then you would have to think, that a Kibito level attack would make one estimate his power with perfect Cell? Why would the power he used against Kibito and Goku's estimate be off by so far?


How come Kaioshin seemingly forgets that SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai surpassed him, and doesn't seem to think so until Goku's BUrst?

[Rocketman]

How come Kaioshin seemingly forgets that SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai surpassed him, and doesn't seem to think so until Goku's BUrst?

He can't sense ki for shit. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan all sense Buu's power when he's still a gas released from the ball. Babidi, Dabura and Supreme Kai do not.

[p123]

Kaioshin seemed to sense Gohan's power at the Budokai no problem though. He was utterly astounded.

[lash]

Now check this out, Vegeta implies that Kibito could have managed something against Dabura. More so that Kibito was just a bumbling idiot than being totally inferior.

Maybe Vegeta meant... you know...Kibito could have dodged Dabra 's half assed Base saiyan leveled blast instead of being so clumsy?

I think you're way over analyzing here.

Dabura's Initial Power ~ Imperfect Cell's power
Dabura's Full Power Estimate ~ Semi Cell's power
Dabura's True Power ~ SSJ Gohan who is probably somewhere in the general range of MSSJ Goku at the Cell Games, perhaps a bit weaker...

What do you guys think about that?

Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…”

That doesn't sound like Dabra's at a measly Semi-perfect Cell level. Vegeta doesn't even say they'd get a clear easy win if they fought him.

Note he did not tell him to get angry like he did at the Budokai.

Of course he wouldn't, Gohan didn't get angry enough and lose his reasoning there. He simply went SSJ2.

Not to mention Kaioshin's implication that

SSJ Gohan Kamehameha Buu Blast > SSJ2 Gohan

Simple. It means Gohan wasn't a SSJ1 at the moment he fired his Kamehameha. He was SSJ2. The art doesn't contradict this either...
Refer to the beam struggle of Cell after his near fatal powerup and SSJ2 Gohan.

Gohan's rage is separate from Super Saiyan and unique to him. I say that when Gohan went to destroy Buu's ball, he didn't go SS2, but did have a Rage Boost (much as he's had rage boosts in base without going Super). The Rage pushed him higher than his SS2 strength, but goes away after firing.

Gohan has to lose his reasoning to get power from anger. General anger alone won't do anything for him. Considering he says he's angry...but not like the last time(Cell games, when he lost his reasoning), he likely isn't getting any power from anger.

Also, Kaioshin implies that all 3 saiyans are beyond belief and that Kibito couldn't imagine their power.


How silly is that? Arhhh, this is agravating..

I see no problem with that. Kaioshin had found out they all have access to SSJ2. While Kibito has only felt the strength of a non full power SSJ2 Gohan.

One question. If SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament have been shown to be much weaker than he had been against Cell, why did Goku in Babidi's ship expect to see how Gohan had progressed over those 7 years?

Like Kaioshin implied.
Gohan likely wasn't outputting full power there, even though he was a SSJ2.

Which further supports that Gohan had to have used full strength (SSJ2) sometime in his battle with Dabra for Goku to make the firm conclusion that Gohan really did slack off.

[Savage68]

What do you think Savage?

Nothing personal, but I think this topic is only going to hell in a handbasket as of late.

[p123]

Vegeta goes on later to call Gohan pathetic, seeing how Dabura is nearly even with him Dabura should be considered pathetic as well. Vegeta also goes on to say that he will finish him, implying it wouldn't merely be Vegeta managing to do something.


At the end of the day

Dabura is around SSJ Gohan's strength. Who is pathetic in comparison to his SSJ Kid Gohan self. Goku's says that this Dabura who is about equal with SSJ Gohan is way stronger than he first thought. Which would mean Dabura's estimate can't possible be about Perfect Cell's full power.

[Senzu_Bean]

What do you think Savage?

Nothing personal, but I think this topic is only going to hell in a handbasket as of late.

It already has been, since the moment everybody just repeat themselves over and over hoping that will make their thinking more correct.

[p123]

Really? I never heard anyone attempt a SSJ2 Gohan at the Budokai retcon. You are an experienced man Sensu Bean!

[Savage68]

Which would mean Dabura's estimate can't possible be about Perfect Cell's full power.

Of course it wasn't; the point of it being an estimate was that Goku wasn't trying to be specific. The problem stems from SSJ supporters that treat Cell as: PC at arbitrary % of his power #1, PC at arbitrary % of his power #2, PC when at full-power, PC when even stronger, etc. When Goku was only equating Dabura to the Saiyans' last general enemy; the guy that proved to be the most troublesome for everyone. The guy that required nothing less than a Super Saiyan 2 to defeat. Later on, Goku says that Dabura's stronger than what he first guessed, and after placing two and two together, we have a statement that indirectly says Dabura is stronger than Cell.

[Senzu_Bean]

It isn't that hard to acknowledge the whole point of comparing Dabura to Cell is to show how weak Gohan is compared to 7 years ago. And since Gohan is only weaker than he was at Super Saiyan 2 the logical conclusion can't be that hard to grasp.

[p123]

Yea Gohan is literally stated to be pathetic by Vegeta. Dabura fighting evenly with SSJ Gohan, is more about showing that Gohan's an idiot, and his power has dropped off so much that , Vegeta a power below Kid Gohan's thinks of Gohan/Dabura as pathetic.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

I still say that it wasn't an even battle. Sure, Gohan managed to piss Dabra off for a bit, but for the most part, he seemed like he was having a good time. Gohan, on the other hand, looked pretty mad the entire time, because he wasn't able to gain the upper-hand. (Vegeta even thinks that Gohan can't win, so he should step in and finish Dabra off. Goku says that Gohan isn't totally losing.)

And of course, when Gohan's about to have his rematch with Dabra, Dabra says that, based on their last battle, Gohan is complete trash.

[Kaboom]

Since Kaioshin and Kibito are evidently so bad at judging Ki (beyond "it's big and/or scary"), I wouldn't put much faith in Kaioshin's "you didn't see how amazing Gohan was" line. Obviously SSj1 Gohan isn't going to be anywhere near as strong as his SSj2 self, no matter what he does. But since neither of them would be able to tell the difference anyway, then it can probably be taken as something like, "you never saw Gohan in action."

[p123]

I think Gohan wasn't completely losing. Will check that though...


Vegeta's whole Gohan is pathetic I will finish off Dabura statement is something overlooked IMO. I am pretty sure Vegeta is talking about his own SSJ at this point.

One could presumably think that SSJ Kid Gohan > SSJ Vegeta not by huge measures but still should stand if you believe in correlating boosts.


That would make...


SSJ Kid Gohan > SSJ Vegeta >> Dabura ~ SSJ Gohan

Vegeta would be on a different level than Dabura/Gohan as a SSJ. One could definitley plausibly use this line of reasoning. Which would also suggest Gohan dropped off perhaps more power than most think. Originally I have Teen Gohan at 75% of Kid Gohan, but the gap may be even bigger than that IMO.

[Savage68]

Since Kaioshin and Kibito are evidently so bad at judging Ki (beyond "it's big and/or scary"), I wouldn't put much faith in Kaioshin's "you didn't see how amazing Gohan was" line.

You can't really question their ability to sense Gohan's power, because they outright comment on Gohan's power every time it's worthy of being commenting on. They can sense Gohan's ki, there's no argument. Even if Kaioshin is only capable enough to utter out, "Gohan's potential power is big and / or scary," that's rock-solid proof that Gohan's strength at the Budokai was only scratching the surface of what was to transpire after ward, because the statement itself requires it.

[p123]

Anyone else thought it was interesting that Piccolo only thinks that Perhaps Vegeta surpassed Gohan?

That definitley makes Majin Vegeta/SSJ2 Goku >= SSJ2 Kid Gohan, and not by a huge margin either. I know many have felt that way as well.

Vegeta flat out says Goku is greater than Gohan, but with Piccolo in there, I would think that would mean not by much you know?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Um, what? Piccolo said Vegeta was "more powerful than Gohan when he fought Cell", and left it at that.

[p123]

Not according to Herms translation. Piccolo only says perhaps surpassed Gohan...

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yep, you're right.

Well, that's interesting. I never thought they were way above Kid Gohan, anyway, so that's cool.

[p123]

I know me too. But now it's even more awesome since we have more evidence to back up that line of thought. Awesome indeed.