How strong is Kid Trunks and Goten?

[jackjack]

Bullshit.

First of all, bullshit right back at ya! It's simply my opinion that they're around Piccolo's level. If you want to prove me wrong, go right ahead.

"Impressed" does not equate to "stronger than me". I'd like to see you argue that base Goku was stronger than Freeza because he was impressed by him.

Impressed doesn't equate to way weaker than me, either. I'd like to see you argue Goku being nowhere near Freeza.

Piccolo was impressed by the kids' power the same way Vegeta and Trunks were impressed by their power.

Too bad, that wasn't Piccolo's first time seeing their power.

The only thing you can say for sure about their power is that they're strong enough to give #18 trouble in a tournament.

Are you saying they aren't stronger than her or what?

[painfuldeath]

The way I see it Trunks and Goten are about as strong as the initial Super Saiyan forms shown when transformed. Theres nothing to say 18 was fighting at full potential. She only started to take the fight seriously when the kids started showing their real power and then when they transformed she quickly ended the match. I find it hard to believe that she would be scared of fighting them because they would cause her significant injury. I think she was more worried with what would happen if they got carried away and started using their powers irresponsibly. Considering they are at least as strong as Frieza's final form, either one could easily cause some damage to their surroundings.

As for Vegeta and Gohan's reactions to their power I believe its more of a surprise reaction than anything. Sure they are strong enough to cause both of them to have more trouble than expected, but their power is at best 1/4th of Vegeta or Gohan. In both occasions, neither were fighting at full power and both were holding their powers back because they realize they are kids. Furthermore, if we take Gotenks into account we can determine that they are only as strong as Goku when put together and in the SS3 transformation. Given that fusions don't work as A + B = A + B manner, its possible to assume that they are less than half as strong as Goku individually. Finally, considering that neither can achieve SS3 transformation on their own (or even SS2 for that matter), this would put their power well below 1/4th of Goku's SS3.

Here's my attempt to explain my thoughts:

Assuming Gotenks SS3 = Goku SS3
Then Goten SS3 = Goku SS3 / 2 and Trunks SS3 = Goku SS3 / 2
But since they can't reach SS3 we substitute that for a multiplier. SS3 is roughly 4 x SS2, so:
Goten SS2 x 4 = Goku SS3 / 2 and Trunks SS2 x 4 = Goku SS3 / 2
Neither can they reach SS2 which we once again substitute for a multiplier. SS2 is roughly 2 x SS so
Goten SS x 8 = Goku SS3 / 2 and Trunks SS x 8 = Goku SS3 / 2
Finally, we can deduce that Goten and Trunks at their full power individually is roughly 1 / 16th of Goku's full power.

So, there it is. In my logic, Trunks and Goten are not as powerful as 18, but stronger than Frieza.

[hleV]

Assuming Gotenks SS3 = Goku SS3

You have got to be kidding me, sir.

[Fox666]

The way I see it Trunks and Goten are about as strong as the initial Super Saiyan forms shown when transformed. Theres nothing to say 18 was fighting at full potential. She only started to take the fight seriously when the kids started showing their real power and then when they transformed she quickly ended the match. I find it hard to believe that she would be scared of fighting them because they would cause her significant injury. I think she was more worried with what would happen if they got carried away and started using their powers irresponsibly. Considering they are at least as strong as Freeza's final form, either one could easily cause some damage to their surroundings.

As for Vegeta and Gohan's reactions to their power I believe its more of a surprise reaction than anything. Sure they are strong enough to cause both of them to have more trouble than expected, but their power is at best 1/4th of Vegeta or Gohan. In both occasions, neither were fighting at full power and both were holding their powers back because they realize they are kids. Furthermore, if we take Gotenks into account we can determine that they are only as strong as Goku when put together and in the SS3 transformation. Given that fusions don't work as A + B = A + B manner, its possible to assume that they are less than half as strong as Goku individually. Finally, considering that neither can achieve SS3 transformation on their own (or even SS2 for that matter), this would put their power well below 1/4th of Goku's SS3.

Here's my attempt to explain my thoughts:

Assuming Gotenks SS3 = Goku SS3
(... [Goten & Trunks base = 1/2 of Goku base power)

So, there it is. In my logic, Trunks and Goten are not as powerful as 18, but stronger than Freeza.

First of all, Gotenks is clearly much stronger than Goku.


Second, #18 is much weaker than the Full-power Super Saiyans.

• #18 is a bit inferior to #17.
• #17 is muuuch weaker than Imperfect Cell.
• #16 who was equal to Imperfect Cell, can't made a scratch on Semi-perfect Cell.
• Yet semi-perfect Cell was useless against Super Vegeta.
• As if that was not enough, Goku after using just half or his power, scare the hell out of Vegeta.

In other words, the difference in strength beetween #18 and Goku SSJ is sooo absurdo, it surely is well over 10 times.

If you assume that Fusion mean the sum of both parts, Trunks shouldn't have less than 10 times the power of #18.

They never "gave her trouble" before transforming. They were completely on the defensive, and never landed a single hit on her. #18 was in complete control of the fight and showed absolutely no signs of stress or considerable effort. The most they ever got out of her was thinking to herself, "he's strong, despite his weird appearance."

At least, that's how it was in the manga (lookin' at it right here). I don't know if or how the anime "embellished" things though.

Agree. The manga is clear.

#18 is superior to them in their base form. However after Trunks turned SSJ and shot a supressed blast from his fingers, she was very scared.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Bullshit.

First of all, bullshit right back at ya! It's simply my opinion that they're around Piccolo's level. If you want to prove me wrong, go right ahead.

You were implying that being impressed by someone's power meant that they're on the same level. Which isn't true, and there have been examples of characters who've been impressed by others' power, but still been more powerful than them.

"Impressed" does not equate to "stronger than me". I'd like to see you argue that base Goku was stronger than Freeza because he was impressed by him.

Impressed doesn't equate to way weaker than me, either. I'd like to see you argue Goku being nowhere near Freeza.

Piccolo was impressed because Goten and Trunks were that strong, at only age 7 and 8.

Piccolo was impressed by the kids' power the same way Vegeta and Trunks were impressed by their power.

Too bad, that wasn't Piccolo's first time seeing their power.

Piccolo had only seen Goten and Trunks temporarily transform at the Budokai. He saw their full power on the Lookout.

The only thing you can say for sure about their power is that they're strong enough to give #18 trouble in a tournament.

Are you saying they aren't stronger than her or what?

#18's stronger than them in their base forms. She's probably not in their SSj forms. #18 was under the impression that she was fighting an Earthling, and as such, would be holding back. After SSj Trunks shot a suppressed ki blast at her, she narrowly dodged it and decided it was better to end the match by exposing them rather than risk getting beaten.

[jackjack]

You were implying that being impressed by someone's power meant that they're on the same level.

Nope, I said "they can't be that weak", hence the "Semi Cell" bit (FYI, I think Piccolo is much stronger than this version of Cell).

Which isn't true, and there have been examples of characters who've been impressed by others' power, but still been more powerful than them.

Doesn't contradict my placement of their power around Piccolo, and if it were true, it wouldn't be just my opinion; it would be a fact, wouldn't it?

Piccolo was impressed because Goten and Trunks were that strong, at only age 7 and 8.

Nothing indicates such, considering Piccolo actually had a better look at their power than Goku, yet Goku wasn't impressed simply because they were young.

Piccolo had only seen Goten and Trunks temporarily transform at the Budokai. He saw their full power on the Lookout.

Piccolo was also present during the entire time Vegeta fought Boo.

#18's stronger than them in their base forms. She's probably not in their SSj forms. #18 was under the impression that she was fighting an Earthling, and as such, would be holding back. After SSj Trunks shot a suppressed ki blast at her, she narrowly dodged it and decided it was better to end the match by exposing them rather than risk getting beaten.

So you do think they are stronger than her as SSJs, cool, no problem there.

[lash]

Anyone have an explanation for this quote?:

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Context: this is before Fusion is even mentioned


To me it supposedly means Goten and Trunks(preferably as SSJs) > Piccolo. Which I'm not too thrilled about...
But I'm interested in any other interpretations.

[Bussani]

Anyone have an explanation for this quote?:

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Context: this is before Fusion is even mentioned


To me it supposedly means Goten and Trunks(preferably as SSJs) > Piccolo. Which I'm not too thrilled about...
But I'm interested in any other interpretations.

They're Saiyans, and as such, have grown to incredible levels in only 7 years. Stick 'em in the Room of Spirit and Time for a couple of years like the other Saiyans did and they might be able to become something.

[painfuldeath]

First of all, Gotenks is clearly much stronger than Goku.

Actually, it isn't clear at all. Were it clear there would be no debate over Gohan being stronger than Goku and vice versa.

Second, #18 is much weaker than the Full-power Super Saiyans.

• #18 is a bit inferior to #17.
• #17 is muuuch weaker than Imperfect Cell.
• #16 who was equal to Imperfect Cell, can't made a scratch on Semi-perfect Cell.
• Yet semi-perfect Cell was useless against Super Vegeta.
• As if that was not enough, Goku after using just half or his power, scare the hell out of Vegeta.

In other words, the difference in strength beetween #18 and Goku SSJ is sooo absurdo, it surely is well over 10 times.

True

If you assume that Fusion mean the sum of both parts, Trunks shouldn't have less than 10 times the power of #18.

Actually I never said they were less than 10 times her power. I said that they were at about 1/16th of Goku's power.

Agree. The manga is clear.

#18 is superior to them in their base form. However after Trunks turned SSJ and shot a supressed blast from his fingers, she was very scared.

Agreed that the manga is clear that they are weaker than her without transforming. The thing is we never see either of them fight seriously. Trunks and Goten are likely about as strong as Vegeta was when he fought 18, maybe even a little bit stronger. This also makes sense in my previous logic as he was somewhere around half of Goku's power at the end of the Cell arc. He nearly doubled his strength to fight Semi-Perfect Cell.

[Rocketman]

Actually, it isn't clear at all. Were it clear there would be no debate over Gohan being stronger than Goku and vice versa.

There isn't. The only 'debate' is from people listening to Toei or not wanting Goku to not be the strongest.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Agreed that the manga is clear that they are weaker than her without transforming. The thing is we never see either of them fight seriously. Trunks and Goten are likely about as strong as Vegeta was when he fought 18, maybe even a little bit stronger. This also makes sense in my previous logic as he was somewhere around half of Goku's power at the end of the Cell arc. He nearly doubled his strength to fight Semi-Perfect Cell.

I doubt it. Vegeta was quite weak compared to #18. His Chi-blast didn't even force #18 to move, and all it did was mess up her jacket. She felt the intensity of Trunks's blast and actually comments on the destructive power and speed it possessed, which we know wasn't at full-power.

I think it's clear Trunks is stronger than Vegeta from back then.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Agreed that the manga is clear that they are weaker than her without transforming. The thing is we never see either of them fight seriously. Trunks and Goten are likely about as strong as Vegeta was when he fought 18, maybe even a little bit stronger. This also makes sense in my previous logic as he was somewhere around half of Goku's power at the end of the Cell arc. He nearly doubled his strength to fight Semi-Perfect Cell.

I doubt it. Vegeta was quite weak compared to #18. His Chi-blast didn't even force #18 to move, and all it did was mess up her jacket. She felt the intensity of Trunks's blast and actually comments on the destructive power and speed it possessed, which we know wasn't at full-power.

I think it's clear Trunks is stronger than Vegeta from back then.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment and say that Vegeta actually put up a good fight against #18. While Trunks was amazed that Vegeta was holding his own against #18, Piccolo specifically noted that Vegeta would lose because she was wearing him down while she didn't lose any power at all (because of the infinite energy reactor). #18 didn't even seem to have the upper hand until she broke Vegeta's arm.

Although I do think that Trunks is stronger than Vegeta from back then, as well as #18.