.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

What? How can Goku be close to his full power, but should have power more stupendous than that, at the same time? Could it just mean that he's fighting with all he's got, but isn't fighting at his full power when he'd be healthy?

[dbgtFO]

What? How can Goku be close to his full power, but should have power more stupendous than that, at the same time? Could it just mean that he's fighting with all he's got, but isn't fighting at his full power when he'd be healthy?

Pretty much.

[Piccolo Daimao]

What? How can Goku be close to his full power, but should have power more stupendous than that, at the same time? Could it just mean that he's fighting with all he's got, but isn't fighting at his full power when he'd be healthy?

Pretty much.

Ah, I see. I thought you meant that Sick SSj Goku was fighting close to his full power while healthy.

[dbgtFO]

What? How can Goku be close to his full power, but should have power more stupendous than that, at the same time? Could it just mean that he's fighting with all he's got, but isn't fighting at his full power when he'd be healthy?

Pretty much.

Ah, I see. I thought you meant that Sick SSj Goku was fighting close to his full power while healthy.

That's what I previously argued... so you weren't that far off.

[jackjack]

I think genki = life force energy.

[lash]

In this case my personal fanon dictates that Gohan's SSJ boost is minimal and far from the standard 50 times boost, that Daizenshuu and SEG states apply to every SSJ. Since the manga doesn't say that it's the same boost for everyone, I can't be contradicted by the original source at least.

The original source never said it isn't the same for everyone.

Then why can't Piccolo on Namek be stronger than 90.000 Goku before fusing with Nail? Or maybe you also changed your view on that?

Funny, I just knew some guy would quote me on that as I was typing. The piccolo case is absolutely impossible when comparing it to Goku's statistically stated battle power and time frame. And there would be no point having Piccolo at 90K+ if all he came to do was fuse with Nail anyway. There is absolutely no "author's intent" supporting it.
The Trunks case isn't impossible. There are no stated statistically battle powers to compare the growth to. And we have Gohan's statement supporting it. Author's intent supports it: He needs Trunks to be at the very least stronger then what Gohan was when he fought the andriods and fell to his demise, otherwise Trunks' character ends up among the biggest retards in Dragonball history.

Two totally different scenarios.

Piccolo: "Son Goku is rushing this fight for some reason. He's acting as if he's already near his full power. So why is he making such a mess of things!?"
Tenshinhan: "Mess of things? Mess of things? What are you saying? Goku's got him completely at his mercy."
Piccolo: "This is nothing! As a Super Saiyan, Goku should be much more powerful!"

That makes a lot more sense then what Herms translated(no discredit to him). Herms' translation is pretty much making Piccolo say a contradiction.

[dbgtFO]

The original source never said it isn't the same for everyone.

True, I'm just saying that in the original source at least there isn't any clear statement, that would contradict the characters getting varied boosts.

Funny, I just knew some guy would quote me on that as I was typing.

Obviously you can't expect less, when it comes to these discussions.

The piccolo case is absolutely impossible when comparing it to Goku's statistically stated battle power and time frame. And there would be no point having Piccolo at 90K+ if all he came to do was fuse with Nail anyway. There is absolutely no "author's intent" supporting it.
The Trunks case isn't impossible. There are no stated statistically battle powers to compare the growth to. And we have Gohan's statement supporting it. Author's intent supports it: He needs Trunks to be at the very least stronger then what Gohan was when he fought the andriods and fell to his demise, otherwise Trunks' character ends up among the biggest retards in Dragonball history.

Two totally different scenarios.

I agree on the Trunks case. The Piccolo case, I honestly don't care if he managed to go above Goku, since getting above Nail is pretty ridiculous in itself, so making him as strong as possible without contradicting the fact, that he's below 530.000 is fine with me.

That makes a lot more sense then what Herms translated(no discredit to him). Herms' translation is pretty much making Piccolo say a contradiction.

Indeed.

[p123]

Piccolo should be way above Base Goku due to plot device. Kuririn and Gohan are stated to be powerful enough to help against 530k Freeza. It's very possible that Kuririn/Gohan are in the 100-200 k range, and with Vegeta at the 500k range, Goku has already been surpassed by possibly all three fighters!

Having


Gohan > Krilen > Piccolo because you dont want Piccolo > Goku Arrival, makes infinitely less than sense than having


Freeza >= Vegeta > Piccolo > Gohan > Kuririn ~ Base Goku Arrival



And chalking it all up to plot device to increase the fighters enough to match their next opponent. Which is the case...

[Rocketman]

There is no way Piccolo went from ~2000 to a couple hundred thousand in six days.

[Fox666]

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

What? How can Goku be close to his full power, but should have power more stupendous than that, at the same time? Could it just mean that he's fighting with all he's got, but isn't fighting at his full power when he'd be healthy?

"Close to his power" meant that Goku is putting a lot of effort in his movements and already display fatigue from the battle and all kind characteristics of when he uses all of his power.

That's very easy to understand.

There is no way Piccolo went from ~2000 to a couple hundred thousand in six days.

Personally I don't think there was any signifcant change in his power.

During the Namek saga, there was always a reason to increase the power.
- The saiyan near death boost
- Transforming-type aliens
- The power unleashed by the Saichorou.
- The crazy training Goku did in Namek
- Piccolo fusion with Nail (which was already hinted when the Saichorou commented that only a Super Saiyan could beat the son of Kakkatz)

I don't think Toriyama would simply throw from his slave "well, now Piccolo will have a 50x increase after drinking Tea"

[Godo]

There is no way Piccolo went from ~2000 to a couple hundred thousand in six days.

There is no way Goku went from 8,000 to 3 million in a couple of days.
There is no way Vegeta went from 20,000 (roughly) to around 3-4,000,000 in a couple of days.
There is no way Kuririn went from 1,500 to around 70,000-100,000 in a couple of days.
There is no way Gohan went from 1,500 to above the million mark in a couple of days.

The whole formula, no matter how the power was obtained, was the same in the whole Freeza Arc. People got powerups without doing jack shit.
Gohan: Power unlocked + das RAAAAGE
Goku: Near death experience
Kuririn: Power unlocked
Vegeta: Near death experience
Piccolo: Trained for a couple of days at Kaio's (where by the way, the humans made greater progress in less time than Goku did).

Just deal with it.

[Rocketman]

There is no way Goku went from 8,000 to 3 million in a couple of days.
There is no way Vegeta went from 20,000 (roughly) to around 3-4,000,000 in a couple of days.

Evolving into Super Saiyans.

There is no way Kuririn went from 1,500 to around 70,000-100,000 in a couple of days.
There is no way Gohan went from 1,500 to above the million mark in a couple of days.

Power forcibly unlocked (with some NDPU for Gohan) (and also Krillin didn't get that high).

[Nazi Cola]

Wait, so why exactly didn't Skinny Boo come back out of Super Boo when everybody was torn out from Super Boo's innards?

[Rocketman]

Wait, so why exactly didn't Skinny Boo come back out of Super Boo when everybody was torn out from Super Boo's innards?

Because Vegeta said that's what would happen, and Vegeta cannot be allowed to be correct.

[p123]

Godo, you are my man. You really get it... Glad to see there are others... Plot device increases just happen, whether your in universe explanation seems more feasible for one group than the others, it does not matter, the Z Senshi just increase as much as the plot asks of them. There is no logic , no rhyme no reason, other than simple plot boosts... The sooner you accept that, the easier the story becomes to understand...


On the Majin Buu issue. Skinny Buu will not return because Kid Buu has been reborn and has attained control... I do a really good breakdown of all things Majin Buu related here. Come check it out...


http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t161 ... majin-buu/

[Godo]

Evolving into Super Saiyans.

Raised powerlevel doesn't make a Super Saiya-jin. Intense rage does.
If they were indeed evolving, both Gohan and Vegeta would have transformed much sooner. This is shown not to be the case.

Power forcibly unlocked (with some NDPU for Gohan) (and also Krillin didn't get that high).

Kuririn got a really high raise for being a human, at least. That is what matters. He went to at least 10,000. That's huge.
Kuririn and Gohan were shown to have power unlocked. This power is said to be unlocked via training. Thus they had that power within them already.
Somehow, Piccolo managed to make his own power to unlock during 6 days.
Unlocking of powerlevels is nothing but bypassing training.

All in all, all these power increases may have some reason for them to have happened, but in the end it's all about the following:

1) Vegeta and Gohan had to get strong enough to fight Freeza's 1st and 2nd form, and hold him up for Goku's arrival
2) Piccolo had to get strong enough to fight Freeza's 2nd and 3rd form, and hold him up for Goku's arrival
3) Kuririn had to get strong enough to withhold Ginyu Goku, and also to not die from a sneeze of Freeza's, and to hold 2nd form Freeza up for Goku's arrival
4) Goku had to get strong enough to be able to withstand a large fraction (but not all) of Freeza's fourth form power. Then he had to transform into a Super Saiya-jin to be able to win against Freeza.

All those four points fall into the same category: plot convenience. They can't be argued against. Doing so is the same as to argue that Super Saiya-jin Goku wasn't stronger than Freeza.

And also, Piccolo's increase in those 6 days was in every way ridiculously huge, since he himself claimed that he could help against Freeza. In short, he must have surpassed at least Vegeta's power to think that he could help out against someone much stronger than Vegeta.

[Rocketman]

And also, Piccolo's increase in those 6 days was in every way ridiculously huge, since he himself claimed that he could help against Freeza. In short, he must have surpassed at least Vegeta's power to think that he could help out against someone much stronger than Vegeta.

Piccolo never sensed Vegeta's power. He had to guess it from when Nappa obeyed and from Goku at 5000 beating Vegeta.

So Piccolo could be 5500 and still think he's useful.

[lash]

Gohan > Krilen > Piccolo because you dont want Piccolo > Goku Arrival, makes infinitely less than sense than having


Freeza >= Vegeta > Piccolo > Gohan > Kuririn ~ Base Goku Arrival



And chalking it all up to plot device to increase the fighters enough to match their next opponent. Which is the case...

There's a reason to have Gohan and Kuririn that powerful. There is absolutely none for Piccolo in this case, other than a fan's distaste that measly Krillin could probably easily defeat him in that point in time.

[Godo]

And also, Piccolo's increase in those 6 days was in every way ridiculously huge, since he himself claimed that he could help against Freeza. In short, he must have surpassed at least Vegeta's power to think that he could help out against someone much stronger than Vegeta.

Piccolo never sensed Vegeta's power. He had to guess it from when Nappa obeyed and from Goku at 5000 beating Vegeta.

So Piccolo could be 5500 and still think he's useful.

Kuririn and the gang told about the horrible villains that made Vegeta look weak to Bulma's father. The same guy knew the extent of Goku's power.
Bulma's father told Goku about Kuririn's words. Goku knew that Kuririn knew the extent of Vegeta's power.
Goku contacted King Kai. Piccolo and the gang gets to know about these horrible villains.
Piccolo knows that being "as strong as Vegeta" means jack shit at this point. So no matter if he thought that he needed to be 5000 (according to you), he knew that it wouldn't do.
However you twist and turn it, everything points to Piccolo being way above 5,000.

[Fox666]

Kuririn didn't give much details about Freeza, he simply said it was a guy stronger than Vegeta.