Super Earthling

[dbgtFO]

@Tenshinhan-san
Why bother trying to convince anyone? Nobody would be listening/reading anyways...

I myself don't have the need to discuss the Earthling characters, since I've already given my opinion on their powers post Freeza Arc.

[Fox666]

since I've already given my opinion on their powers post Freeza Arc.

You are assuming that the power Dr. Gero absorbs is summed to his own base power. For me it doesn't seems to work that way, and it's more like unlocking his own potential.

But of course you can also think that Dr. Gero underestimated the Super Saiyan level. Dr. Gero commited several miscalculations. He might just not have realized that the energy he absorbed from Yamcha was nothing compared to what N.19 absorbed from Goku.

Lol! I see what you're doing there. I seriously doubt Tenshinhan would just do some mountain training after all the types of training he has experienced, knowing the results of each - realizing the upcoming android threat which will be far worse than even Freeza. At Kaio's planet he downright said he would mix these new methods with what he knew once back on Earth. But to each his own and that's fine. IMO though, it's a little ridiculous to put him that low at that point in the series. It also would mean Shin Kikoho is like a multi-thousand multiplier, which is pure insanity, even for that technique, since it would even put the SSJ3 transformation multiplier to shame.

To begin with, I find it hard to digest the concept of "multiplier" for that technique.

Besides, why is it ridiculous to put Tenshinhan 10,000 below Semi-perfect Cell, if even putting Tenshinhan at a ridiculously high level would still would put below 1% of Semi-perfect Cell?

If you actually believe Tenshinhan was 10.000-20.000 during Cell arc...

Sounds fair. N.19 and N.20 mistook Yamcha for Goku, whom they knew as being at a 5,000 to 8,000 level.

This is the only comparison available for the earthlings post Cell saga, besides fridge logic based on plot-induced battles...

[dbgtFO]

since I've already given my opinion on their powers post Freeza Arc.

You are assuming that the power Dr. Gero absorbs is summed to his own base power.

I do, since it was stated it works that way.

For me it doesn't seems to work that way, and it's more like unlocking his own potential.

It was stated it works that way, so why try to make up other explanations for it.

But of course you can also think that Dr. Gero underestimated the Super Saiyan level. Dr. Gero commited several miscalculations. He might just not have realized that the energy he absorbed from Yamcha was nothing compared to what N.19 absorbed from Goku.

Gero absorbed Yamcha way before he stood face to face with a Super Saiyajin.

[Fox666]

You mean this line?

"If I collect their energy and add it to my own"

As far I am concerned, that line is nothing besides a synonymous for "I will absorb energy".

It is VERY different of saiying "if my combat potential is 100 and I absorb the energy of someone with 10, then my combat potential is 110".

Gero absorbed Yamcha way before he stood face to face with a Super Saiyajin.

Overall, Dr. Gero commit several mistakes regarding the level of power. I find it possible that he was wrong about defeating Vegeta.

[dbgtFO]

You mean this line?

"If I collect their energy and add it to my own"

As far I am concerned, that line is nothing besides a synonymous for "I will absorb energy".

It is VERY different of saiying "if my combat potential is 100 and I absorb the energy of someone with 10, then my combat potential is 110".

Yes. I just don't see any other interpretation other than that.
Besides why do you consider the Earthlings that low?
I think Tenshinhan only making a comment about Super Saiyajin level of power(Goku, Vegeta & Piccolo) really speaks volumes of how much he's improved.

[Fox666]

You must remember that the absorption device was not created to make the androids stronger, but weaker. N.17 and N.18 have infinite energy, still their combat ability is not infinite... the androids have their own fighting potential, and the energy absorption unlocks it, just like in N.19 case.

So I just think you are assuming that if you dismantle a vehicle, and add it's pieces to your own, you will make your car 2x faster... and things don't work that way.

For me Earthlings served for anything. There is no need to assume their had a 100x power-up for doing nothing. Yajirobe also played a role in the Androids saga, still I don't see anybody saying his battle power was 1,000,000...

[dbgtFO]

For me Earthlings served for anything. There is no need to assume their had a 100x power-up for doing nothing. Yajirobe also played a role in the Androids saga, still I don't see anybody saying his battle power was 1,000,000...

Yajirobe wasn't stated to have been training, so of course no one will state he got stronger, since he didn't train.

As I previously stated, Tenshinhan not commenting on base Saiyajins, but rather the Super Saiyajin levels of power he sensed just goes to show, how he feels about base Saiyajins.

And saying the Shin Kikoho wouldn't harm Recoome, when it managed to push friggin Cell underground against his will, a feat #16 failed to replicate, tells me a thing or two about your opinion on its power...

As I already stated no one would claim, that Piccolo's Gekiretsu Kodan would have proven useless against Saiyajin Arc Vegeta, since it was useless against Imperfect Cell. You should be able to agree on that.

[Fox666]

And saying the Shin Kikoho wouldn't harm Recoome, when it managed to push friggin Cell underground against his will, a feat #16 failed to replicate, tells me a thing or two about your opinion on its power...

As I already said, it is the same situation with Kuririn and Gohan attacking Freeza. Kuririn with mere 13,000 forced Freeza to stay back, still that attack would be useless against Rikum in a combat.

As I previously stated, Tenshinhan not commenting on base Saiyajins, but rather the Super Saiyajin levels of power he sensed just goes to show, how he feels about base Saiyajins.

You know that is not worth evidence...

I prefer to go by this scene



These pages show some consistency beetween the level of <earthlings - Piccolo - base Vegeta> and what we saw in the Freeza saga.

But of course you can assume that the only page Toriyama draw that show the difference of powers is an exception, and all situations fans assume based on fridge logic is what he intended to be.

(I am also entering a dangerous area here, since I am saying that Piccolo is not that strong. Usually fans assume Piccolo is over-powered beyond imagination. Arrival on Namek? On par with Freeza first form. Android saga? Super Saiyan level. Cell games? On par the Super Saiyan stage 2. Am I the only one who see a problem involving Piccolo here?)

[dbgtFO]

And saying the Shin Kikoho wouldn't harm Recoome, when it managed to push friggin Cell underground against his will, a feat #16 failed to replicate, tells me a thing or two about your opinion on its power...

As I already said, it is the same situation with Kuririn and Gohan attacking Freeza. Kuririn with mere 13,000 forced Freeza to stay back, still that attack would be useless against Rikum in a combat.

This is going nowhere...

[Fox666]

I edited and added a lot of new things to my last post, if it still interest you

[lash]

You are assuming that the power Dr. Gero absorbs is summed to his own base power. For me it doesn't seems to work that way, and it's more like unlocking his own potential.

Right. Because that makes so much more sense...

You mean this line?

"If I collect their energy and add it to my own"

As far I am concerned, that line is nothing besides a synonymous for "I will absorb energy".

It is VERY different of saiying "if my combat potential is 100 and I absorb the energy of someone with 10, then my combat potential is 110".

Well, that line sure doesn't say "I will pull a Saichourou and unlock the potential energy and then absorb it" either.


Anyway, I don't really think low human battle power advocates have much of an argument sorry to say.

[Godo]

The problem here, though, is the following factors, a mistake on all our parts:

1) We assume that there is something such as battle powers in the Androids Arc.
2) Even though the Androids clearly don't have ki, we assume that they have to be stronger than X and weaker than Y.
3) The last battle power reading was 5, and it was proved to be wrong and faulty.
4) Goku and Freeza's battle power isn't more than a measure to compare the Universe's strongest fighters to other fighters met previously. We assume that it should be taken as granted to measure other people's future battle powers.
5) Not one number is mentioned regarding battle power later in the story.
6) The plot and powerlevels are not linear, nor are the gains from training. Fighters become as strong as they need to be, even if they don't train much or with new methods = plot convenience.
7) Android energy is not equal to ki.
We don't know the mechanism of how an Android adds ki to his overall mechanical strength.
9) We make up rules for ourselves and disregard the previous plot progresses.

From the plot standpoint, the humans and Piccolo were strong enough for Dr. Gero to get an advantage over Vegeta. Not only Piccolo, but also the humans. So they had to have gotten much stronger for their power to be useful in the slightest. Go figure the rest.

[dbgtFO]

The problem here, though, is the following factors, a mistake on all our parts:

1) We assume that there is something such as battle powers in the Androids Arc.

“One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…It’s not No.17 or the other androids. They don’t give off any presence at all…W-who the hell is it…!?”

“The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…I'm-impossible…He’s just a Namekian..”

“Th-that brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power…Th-this is impossible…!”

Boo Arc:

“We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

“Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?

Of course that's just Vegeta, but anyways...

We don't know the mechanism of how an Android adds ki to his overall mechanical strength.

So we ask the Daizenshuus:

They suck up their opponent's ki through the lens-shaped energy absorption devices inserted in the palms of their hands, then convert it into their own energy. This also absorbs ki manipulation techniques.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.p ... absorption

They absorb their opponents' energy through the device in their palms. Aside from directly grabbing onto their opponents' body, they also absorb ki blasts.
[image]By sucking up large quantities of energy, their maximum level raises. They can then change that into attack power.

http://www.kanzentai.com/trans-daiz02.p ... ttack#link

[Fox666]

You are assuming that the power Dr. Gero absorbs is summed to his own base power. For me it doesn't seems to work that way, and it's more like unlocking his own potential.

Right. Because that makes so much more sense...

What do you mean by "sense"? There being a mathematical logic behind the power resulting of the absorption device? There isn't a specific value for saiyan near-death experiences, not for fusion, no matter how much fans try to create a rule for it.

Besides, this assumption that the power of the android will be equal to the energy he absorbed came up as an argument for why the earthlings have a considerable battle power at the androids saga, based on Dr. Gero claim that he would defeat Vegeta after absorbing their energy. Now, just think about it. You know I rate Tenshinhan & Co. around 10,000, but even if you give them a ridiculous level, let's say 5 million for each earthling, it's still useless against Super Saiyan Vegeta, if you assume that absorbing the energy of each them would increase Dr. Gero power by exactly 5 million. Oh yeah, I know people rate Piccolo at Super Saiyan level, but that's doesn't serve since Dr. Gero did not know that and imagined Piccolo would be much weaker. Unless someone is going to claim that every earthling has around 50 million, the absorption = sum of power doesn't work.

[dbgtFO]

Oh yeah, I know people rate Piccolo at Super Saiyan level, but that's doesn't serve since Dr. Gero did not know that and imagined Piccolo would be much weaker. Unless someone is going to claim that every earthling has around 50 million, the absorption = sum of power doesn't work.

Piccolo can amplify his ki, similar to Kaioken just without side effects apparently:

“Commit this to memory: when we fight, we amplify what you guys call ‘energy’, causing it to explode. That’s why the energy you stole from me earlier doesn’t matter…”

So Piccolo could normally be below Dr. Gero, but when multiplying his BP through amplification of ki he's superior. However that combined with the ki of the Earthlings could still be enough to handle Vegeta.
The only real feat we have for comparing the Earthlings to regular Saiyajins is this:

which shows that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, perhaps slightly inferior.

And what you yourself posted.

[Fox666]

That would be the same as if I argue that Kuririn is close to Piccolo based on this picture:



Don't you agree?

Either way, Dr. Gero wasn't targeting Goku or Tenshinhan, but the surrounding area. (It's even funny to think they dodged it, since these two laser beans at a distance of less than 5cm from each other would not possible hit both Goku and Tenshinhan)

(Piccolo might simply had his power supressed, and such the energy Dr. Gero took was useless)

[dbgtFO]

That would be the same as if I argue that Kuririn is close to Piccolo based on this picture:

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/850/081i.png

Don't you agree?

Not really, since Krillin and Piccolo didn't really do anything, whereas Tenshinhan and Goku actually dodged the attack. Give me a better example..

Either way, Dr. Gero wasn't targeting Goku or Tenshinhan, but the surrounding area.

Even, if they weren't targeted, they still reacted to it, unlike what Piccolo, Krillin, Gohan & Vegeta did, when Freeza targeted and killed Dende.

(Piccolo might simply had his power supressed, and such the energy Dr. Gero took was useless)

That's another interpretation, but I think, if that really was the case, then Piccolo should have said that his ki was lowered to its minimum instead of making a comment, that implies having a Kaioken like technique, since Kaioken is the only thing in the story actually stated to be an amplification of ki(IIRC).

[Piccolo Daimao]

Why do I continue to see Tenshinhan dodging Dr. Gero's blast as a means of gauging his strength in the Cell arc? We see that Dr. Gero was aiming between Goku and Tenshinhan, to destroy the city. Who knows, the blast could've been suppressed, meaning it may not have been as fast as if he was actually trying to hit them. Dr. Gero obviously expected Tenshinhan to dodge it, otherwise he wouldn't have aimed it towards them.

The suggestion that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, or even slightly inferior, based on dodging an attack that wasn't even aimed at him, I find laughable.

[dbgtFO]

Why do I continue to see Tenshinhan dodging Dr. Gero's blast as a means of gauging his strength in the Cell arc? We see that Dr. Gero was aiming between Goku and Tenshinhan, to destroy the city. Who knows, the blast could've been suppressed, meaning it may not have been as fast as if he was actually trying to hit them. Dr. Gero obviously expected Tenshinhan to dodge it, otherwise he wouldn't have aimed it towards them.

Well here's the thing, you'll have to provide proof of Gero lowering its speed, so they were able to dodge it.

The suggestion that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, or even slightly inferior, based on dodging an attack that wasn't even aimed at him, I find laughable.

...So Vegeta kicking Gohan out of the way, when Freeza shot a beam not even aimed at Vegeta, doesn't translate to Vegeta's reflexes being superior to an inactive Piccolo either?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Why do I continue to see Tenshinhan dodging Dr. Gero's blast as a means of gauging his strength in the Cell arc? We see that Dr. Gero was aiming between Goku and Tenshinhan, to destroy the city. Who knows, the blast could've been suppressed, meaning it may not have been as fast as if he was actually trying to hit them. Dr. Gero obviously expected Tenshinhan to dodge it, otherwise he wouldn't have aimed it towards them.

Well here's the thing, you'll have to provide proof of Gero lowering its speed, so they were able to dodge it.

I don't have proof. But you have no proof that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, simply based on them dodging a blast that wasn't even aimed at them. And besides, how would Tenshinhan suddenly boost up to base Saiyans' level? And don't call "plot convenience", because there's nothing in the plot that would require Tenshinhan to be anywhere near that strong.

The suggestion that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's, or even slightly inferior, based on dodging an attack that wasn't even aimed at him, I find laughable.

...So Vegeta kicking Gohan out of the way, when Freeza shot a beam not even aimed at Vegeta, doesn't translate to Vegeta's reflexes being superior to an inactive Piccolo either?

Obviously, Vegeta's reflexes are sharper than Piccolo's. He saw Freeza's blast coming towards Gohan on top of a mountain and kicked him out of the way. But I don't think you should take Tenshinhan dodging a blast that wasn't aimed at him and may have been suppressed as evidence that Tenshinhan's reflexes are comparable to Goku's.