Parts of the story you would change?

[Vhanos]

I would make Android 16 and Goku fight. Cell will come later after that.

[caejones]

... This just made me want to start a freeform DBZ RPG with the entire purpose being choosing different things at different points in the story to get what-ifs.

Sort of a choose-your-own-adventure story, except with a GM (or a team of them) to make it more epic.

This thread turned out less frustratingly overdone than I expected it to.

... Well, time to change that.
- Goten and Trunks + SSJ = WTF?
- I like the world-sense that the anime gives during DB by bringing back minor characters in filler. (I think it pulls this off pretty well in the Saiyan arc as well). This might just be a product of the rushed schedule and the whole "moving to new things" nature of the series, but I'd've liked it had this been handled better throughout the series as a whole (particularly into the latter two thirds of Z).
- I don't know if I'd change things regarding the relevance of the humans. Actually, yeah, something should probably change, but in such a way as to make it clear what roles they're playing--and for more or less, the cannon fawder role is kind of frustrating to watch. Overdoing the character focuses might get cluttery, and I rather like a point Rocketman made about the passage of generations being one of the series' strongpoints (reminds me of a few Chinese epics I've read/watched. Well, and I guess Tolkien... and the Bible... and... tons of stuff like that...). But again, this seems like something that would require a lot of time and consideration and planning, which doesn't fit well with Toriyama's schedule and style.
- Just clean up some of the "Toriyama forgot" things. This might come in the form of tossing in explanations that are just fanon for now (like with Goten and Trunks' tails), or might involve changing some things here and there.

Hmm. I think the Cell-Buu arcs are where things are the most difficult. What made the first half of Pre-Z DB awesome was the fact that it was a journey. Piccolo Daimao and the 22nd tournament worked because they took all of that buildup and set something dramatic in it that didn't break character.
Z did things in reverse order--the world-building was the serious part, and the ending was the silly part.
But that's not what bugs me. Rather, it's that the exploration doesn't really fit into latter Z the way it does with DB. There are new elements in Cell and Buu--timetravel, the hierarchy of the universe--but they don't seem to carry things the way everything before that does. Buu does a better job of it than Cell, but eh.
(Hmm, maybe having the cast from the main timeline doing some timetraveling would have helped in that regard, but that'd just make the timetravel discussions even more painful. o_o. Maybe do something more interesting with the RoSaT, although that'd hurt the effect of its use in Buu--one of the stronger world-points of that arc, IMO. ).

[caejones]

... This just made me want to start a freeform DBZ RPG with the entire purpose being choosing different things at different points in the story to get what-ifs.

Sort of a choose-your-own-adventure story, except with a GM (or a team of them) to make it more epic.

This thread turned out less frustratingly overdone than I expected it to.

... Well, time to change that.
- Goten and Trunks + SSJ = WTF?
- I like the world-sense that the anime gives during DB by bringing back minor characters in filler. (I think it pulls this off pretty well in the Saiyan arc as well). This might just be a product of the rushed schedule and the whole "moving to new things" nature of the series, but I'd've liked it had this been handled better throughout the series as a whole (particularly into the latter two thirds of Z).
- I don't know if I'd change things regarding the relevance of the humans. Actually, yeah, something should probably change, but in such a way as to make it clear what roles they're playing--and for more or less, the cannon fawder role is kind of frustrating to watch. Overdoing the character focuses might get cluttery, and I rather like a point Rocketman made about the passage of generations being one of the series' strongpoints (reminds me of a few Chinese epics I've read/watched. Well, and I guess Tolkien... and the Bible... and... tons of stuff like that...). But again, this seems like something that would require a lot of time and consideration and planning, which doesn't fit well with Toriyama's schedule and style.
- Just clean up some of the "Toriyama forgot" things. This might come in the form of tossing in explanations that are just fanon for now (like with Goten and Trunks' tails), or might involve changing some things here and there.

Hmm. I think the Cell-Buu arcs are where things are the most difficult. What made the first half of Pre-Z DB awesome was the fact that it was a journey. Piccolo Daimao and the 22nd tournament worked because they took all of that buildup and set something dramatic in it that didn't break character.
Z did things in reverse order--the world-building was the serious part, and the ending was the silly part.
But that's not what bugs me. Rather, it's that the exploration doesn't really fit into latter Z the way it does with DB. There are new elements in Cell and Buu--timetravel, the hierarchy of the universe--but they don't seem to carry things the way everything before that does. Buu does a better job of it than Cell, but eh.
(Hmm, maybe having the cast from the main timeline doing some timetraveling would have helped in that regard, but that'd just make the timetravel discussions even more painful. o_o. Maybe do something more interesting with the RoSaT, although that'd hurt the effect of its use in Buu--one of the stronger world-points of that arc, IMO. ).

... I keep getting a 500 internal server error when I try to post. ... Or 501, I've already forgotten which.

[JulieYBM]

I'm rewatching the twenty-second Tenka'ichi right now. I felt Toriyama sort of wasted Jackie and Gokû's first fights in the final eight. I'd replace Man-Wolf with the Crane Hermit and Panputto with Bora. It's not a big change, but it'd make for some pretty fun fights.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I'm rewatching the twenty-second Tenka'ichi right now. I felt Toriyama sort of wasted Jackie and Gokû's first fights in the final eight. I'd replace Man-Wolf with the Crane Hermit and Panputto with Bora. It's not a big change, but it'd make for some pretty fun fights.

But wasn't the purpose of Jackie Chun's battle with Man-Wolf to conclude the whole revenge-about-destroying-the-moon deal he had with Chun? Plus, Tsuru-sennin doesn't have the same motive to enter the Budokai to stop his students getting complacent; he already thought no-one could defeat his students.

And I don't know how I'd feel about bringing in Bora to participate in the 22nd Tenka'ichi Budokai. Just seems a bit random. Besides, what real motive does he have? He seems perfectly content just living in the Karin Holy Land with Upa.

I agree, a battle between two rivals and Goku vs. Bora would make for some pretty fun fights. But I don't feel there's any real motivation for those battles to happen.

I just thought I'd mention a little something (this isn't to anyone). I'm happy with everything in Dragon Ball pre-Freeza arc. There isn't anything I'd change.

[JulieYBM]

I'm rewatching the twenty-second Tenka'ichi right now. I felt Toriyama sort of wasted Jackie and Gokû's first fights in the final eight. I'd replace Man-Wolf with the Crane Hermit and Panputto with Bora. It's not a big change, but it'd make for some pretty fun fights.

But wasn't the purpose of Jackie Chun's battle with Man-Wolf to conclude the whole revenge-about-destroying-the-moon deal he had with Chun? Plus, Tsuru-sennin doesn't have the same motive to enter the Budokai to stop his students getting complacent; he already thought no-one could defeat his students.

And I don't know how I'd feel about bringing in Bora to participate in the 22nd Tenka'ichi Budokai. Just seems a bit random. Besides, what real motive does he have? He seems perfectly content just living in the Karin Holy Land with Upa.

I agree, a battle between two rivals and Goku vs. Bora would make for some pretty fun fights. But I don't feel there's any real motivation for those battles to happen.

I just thought I'd mention a little something (this isn't to anyone). I'm happy with everything in Dragon Ball pre-Freeza arc. There isn't anything I'd change.

The Crane could have Chaozu set it up so he fights the Turtle Hermit. Why wouldn't he want to try to publically humiliate him?

Bora, really would be there to give Gokû a good challenge, not to mention let Upa see Gokû again.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The Crane could have Chaozu set it up so he fights the Turtle Hermit. Why wouldn't he want to try to publically humiliate him?

Bora, really would be there to give Gokû a good challenge, not to mention let Upa see Gokû again.

Didn't Tsuru-sennin only find out that Jackie Chun was Kame-sennin when Tenshinhan fought him?

And yeah, I agree that Goku vs. Bora would've been nice to see. Bora could've trained, hoping to fight Goku and let Upa see Goku again.

[JulieYBM]

The Crane could have Chaozu set it up so he fights the Turtle Hermit. Why wouldn't he want to try to publically humiliate him?

Bora, really would be there to give Gokû a good challenge, not to mention let Upa see Gokû again.

Didn't Tsuru-sennin only find out that Jackie Chun was Kame-sennin when Tenshinhan fought him?

Obviously he'll have to catch on a little bit sooner, but I don't think it's out of the question for him to realized "Oh, hey a strong old guy showed up in the last tournament and beat up two students of the Turtle. It's probably that bald bastard. He'll probably do it again...I know, I'll enter and make a fool of him!"

And then, butt gets kicked across two chapters.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Didn't Tsuru-sennin only find out that Jackie Chun was Kame-sennin when Tenshinhan fought him?

Obviously he'll have to catch on a little bit sooner, but I don't think it's out of the question for him to realized "Oh, hey a strong old guy showed up in the last tournament and beat up two students of the Turtle. It's probably that bald bastard. He'll probably do it again...I know, I'll enter and make a fool of him!"

And then, butt gets kicked across two chapters.

Oh yeah, that would be good. Tsuru-sennin plans to publicly humiliate Kame-sennin, only to get schooled.

[MugiMikey]

Personally, I would have Freeza kill Gohan instead of Krillin to enrage Goku into transforming into a Super Saiyan. It just makes a lot more sense to me that his son's death would be his final breaking point. Sure, Krillin is his best friend, but it still doesn't compare to his son.

I was just thinking the exact same thing the other day. Gohan's death would have been much more shocking.

I know Krillin died when he was younger and his second death is what got Goku so angry to the point of going Super Saiyan, but why did he go batshit over his death and not over everybody's deaths in the Saiyan arc? While he was still angry, he was perfectly calm and was even making wisecracks. He seemed so nonchalant about the matter, despite knowing none of them could have been wished back. Well, that is until Krillin mentioned his plan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Personally, I would have Freeza kill Gohan instead of Krillin to enrage Goku into transforming into a Super Saiyan. It just makes a lot more sense to me that his son's death would be his final breaking point. Sure, Krillin is his best friend, but it still doesn't compare to his son.

I was just thinking the exact same thing the other day. Gohan's death would have been much more shocking.

I know Krillin died when he was younger and his second death is what got Goku so angry to the point of going Super Saiyan, but why did he go batshit over his death and not over everybody's deaths in the Saiyan arc? While he was still angry, he was perfectly calm and was even making wisecracks. He seemed so nonchalant about the matter, despite knowing none of them could have been wished back. Well, that is until Krillin mentioned his plan.

Goku was angry over their deaths. He just wasn't strong enough to become a Super Saiyan at that point. He probably should've been more pissed off, but I guess there wasn't time to get all mad about it now and just focus on defeating the Saiyans.

And Freeza had done so much more than the Saiyans. He'd killed Vegeta in front of his eyes, beaten the crap out of him (Goku), shot Piccolo in the chest and then caused Kuririn to implode. I guess, with all that, his power and the fact that the story was building up to him becoming a Super Saiyan, it was more appropiate for him to be more mad about that than his friends' deaths back in the Saiyan arc.

And I think Kuririn would've made the bigger impact because he's a character we've seen develop as a character and as best friends with Goku, plus he's died once before. The readers and the characters themselves believe that he can't be wished back to life again. Gohan, on the other hand, is a character we've only gotten to know for two arcs, and for the first one, I doubt he was a likeable character to many. Even though he's Goku's son, we're supposed to feel more for Kuririn.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Except that Gokû already went through a moment of anger at Kuririn's death during the Daimaô arc. They could've used someone else this time... but I guess part of why he's that angry is that with it being his second death, Kuririn could presumably never be revived again.

I recall Goku explicitly saying "He's died twice! Now he can't even come back with the Dragon Balls!", in the anime, at least. So yes, that was probably the kicker.

As for my changes...

1) The manner of Piccolo's (first) death. "Wait a minute, why didn't I just grab him?!" Killed it for me.
2) The pacing of Freeza's transformations.
3) Gotenk's reaching SSJ3. The boys were prodigies, but their also children. SSJ3 is out of their league, period.
4) Write out the potara earrings. Have Gohan kill Buu, find a way to work out Chibi/Kid Buu otherwise, anything is better than that mother of all asspulls.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I know Krillin died when he was younger and his second death is what got Goku so angry to the point of going Super Saiyan, but why did he go batshit over his death and not over everybody's deaths in the Saiyan arc? While he was still angry, he was perfectly calm and was even making wisecracks. He seemed so nonchalant about the matter, despite knowing none of them could have been wished back. Well, that is until Krillin mentioned his plan.

Well I guess it could come down to the fact that he didn't see them get killed in Saiyan saga... knowing your friends got killed is different from watching your friend get imploded by a laughing sociopath for no reason.

[Piccolo Daimao]

1) The manner of Piccolo's (first) death. "Wait a minute, why didn't I just grab him?!" Killed it for me.

How did it kill the moment? I found it perfectly reasonable for Piccolo to do what he did. It's based on instinct. Piccolo saw the kid who he'd been caring for over the past year in danger and instinctively shielded him. And as for why he didn't grab 'n gun it, you could say it's one of those "time-slows-down-for-drama"-type deals. So, in real-time, he didn't have time. Like when Goku teleported Cell to Kaio's planet and took the time to apologize to Gohan and Kaio respectively.

It made more of a dramatic impact for bad guy Piccolo to suddenly sacrifice himself for Gohan.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

1) The manner of Piccolo's (first) death. "Wait a minute, why didn't I just grab him?!" Killed it for me.

How did it kill the moment? I found it perfectly reasonable for Piccolo to do what he did. It's based on instinct. Piccolo saw the kid who he'd been caring for over the past year in danger and instinctively shielded him. And as for why he didn't grab 'n gun it, you could say it's one of those "time-slows-down-for-drama"-type deals. So, in real-time, he didn't have time. Like when Goku teleported Cell to Kaio's planet and took the time to apologize to Gohan and Kaio respectively.

It made more of a dramatic impact for bad guy Piccolo to suddenly sacrifice himself for Gohan.

I'm not not doubting his motive at all, and blocking as he did in sheer panic certainly makes sense, but when you slow something like that down for drama, it distorts how fast Nappa's blast was actually moving. I will watch the episode again, you may be right. I recall it happening like lightning in the manga, but near everything happens like lighting in the manga.

[Piccolo Daimao]

1) The manner of Piccolo's (first) death. "Wait a minute, why didn't I just grab him?!" Killed it for me.

How did it kill the moment? I found it perfectly reasonable for Piccolo to do what he did. It's based on instinct. Piccolo saw the kid who he'd been caring for over the past year in danger and instinctively shielded him. And as for why he didn't grab 'n gun it, you could say it's one of those "time-slows-down-for-drama"-type deals. So, in real-time, he didn't have time. Like when Goku teleported Cell to Kaio's planet and took the time to apologize to Gohan and Kaio respectively.

It made more of a dramatic impact for bad guy Piccolo to suddenly sacrifice himself for Gohan.

I'm not not doubting his motive at all, and blocking as he did in sheer panic certainly makes sense, but when you slow something like that down for drama, it distorts how fast Nappa's blast was actually moving. I will watch the episode again, you may be right. I recall it happening like lightning in the manga, but near everything happens like lighting in the manga.

Well, again, time slows down for drama. Just like Goku's death at the Cell Games. I just ignore it and continue reading/watching.