Vegeta's full potential... cut short?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Post glitch again.

I think after Vegeta went beyond Super Saiyan in the first 2 months, he just trained to achieve more power (judging by Trunks' statement that he didn't seem satisfied). This is the reason why Vegeta was stronger than initial second form Cell even at regular Super Saiyan (IMO). With Super Saiyan Grade 3 proven to be useless, Vegeta thought that the only way to go was to just get stronger.

Well in that second quote, Trunks tells us that Vegeta achieved incredible power like he has in that form now, when he surpassed the limits of SSJ.

So for whatever reason the power he achieved upon ascension is the power he has when fighting Cell.

I don't see anything wrong with that. Vegeta trained to ascend Super Saiyan, and he did, so he reached a whole new level of power. Then he trained for the rest of his time to further increase his power.

[Michsi]

*snip*

I still don't see how that is cutting his full potential short. All that did was prove he is good at what he does, he just does it in his own way.

You are simply not looking at the big picture, go check out Herms' post on page 1, if you haven't already.

If have read it and I agree that his training method may be somewhat less effective than Goku's but my point is that people keep trying to find faults in Vegeta and use that as a reason why he loses to Goku, instead of accepting that maybe Goku is just better.

I think I see the big picture just fine, nobody ever pointed out that Vegeta's training method may be wrong, everybody praises him up and down at being a genious at fighting. He is good at it, he is great at it, but Goku is just better.

[Bussani]

but my point is that people keep trying to find faults in Vegeta and use that as a reason why he loses to Goku, instead of accepting that maybe Goku is just better.

Why are you accusing people of such random things? That's not what anyone's doing. It's not like everyone just decided to get together and come up with reasons for Vegeta never being quite as good as Goku. The thread asked a question and people gave their thoughts. It's not "excuses." It's an analysis. You're just saying: "Stop thinking and talking about it and just accept that Goku's better!"

Yes, Goku is better. That's obvious. Vegeta himself says it. We're talking about why he's better. It's not just that he naturally is, but that he's received a lot of tutelage from amazing people, taken it to heart, and become an expert on ki and training. Vegeta's a genius in his own way for keeping up, but his methods just aren't as good.

nobody ever pointed out that Vegeta's training method may be wrong

Yes, they did. Trunks says his father knows that training with someone is more efficient than training alone, but Kuririn doesn't think Vegeta will train with him anyway. And he's right, since Vegeta goes back into the room alone the second time.

[Michsi]

but my point is that people keep trying to find faults in Vegeta and use that as a reason why he loses to Goku, instead of accepting that maybe Goku is just better.

Why are you accusing people of such random things? That's not what anyone's doing. It's not like everyone just decided to get together and come up with reasons for Vegeta never being quite as good as Goku. The thread asked a question and people gave their thoughts. It's not "excuses." It's an analysis. You're just saying: "Stop thinking and talking about it and just accept that Goku's better!"

I wasn't accusing anybody , I was just pointing out an obvious fact and I wasn't referring to this thread or this site in particular, but to the fandome in general. I've seen and been in this type of discussion more times than I can think and more times than not the conclusion is something like "Vegeta just got shafted" or "the only reason Goku is better is because he got luckier or he's the protagonist etc etc."

I don't know,it;s like trying to make it seem like Goku doesn't deserve his power or place above Vegeta and that just rustles my feathers

Of course everybody is entitiled to his or her oppion, I just stated mine and nobody has to agree with me.

Yes, they did. Trunks says his father knows that training with someone is more efficient than training alone, but Kuririn doesn't think Vegeta will train with him anyway. And he's right, since Vegeta goes back into the room alone the second time.

I just breezed through my volumes and maybe I just missed it, but I don't see this statement anywhere. Do you have a chapter nr?

[Rocketman]

I think it's funny that Vegeta was absolutely right in his speech when he invaded Earth. Y'know, the one where Goku says "Nuh-uh!" and we're all supposed to agree with him?

[dbgtFO]

Yes, they did. Trunks says his father knows that training with someone is more efficient than training alone, but Kuririn doesn't think Vegeta will train with him anyway. And he's right, since Vegeta goes back into the room alone the second time.

I just breezed through my volumes and maybe I just missed it, but I don't see this statement anywhere. Do you have a chapter nr?

Kanzentai is your friend.

As they leave, Trunks asks Krillin if he could take this to his mom for him, explaining that he wants to train with his dad, since he could probably go beyond Super Saiyan as well. Krillin doubts Vegeta would let him, but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think it's funny that Vegeta was absolutely right in his speech when he invaded Earth. Y'know, the one where Goku says "Nuh-uh!" and we're all supposed to agree with him?

Which speech?

[Michsi]

As they leave, Trunks asks Krillin if he could take this to his mom for him, explaining that he wants to train with his dad, since he could probably go beyond Super Saiyan as well. Krillin doubts Vegeta would let him, but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner.

Oh, this was before the ROSAT. I figured this was after.

Also: but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner

They went in together. They must have trained together at least to some extent. Trunks seems to know pretty well when and how Vegeta surpassed the limit of normal SSJ.

[Piccolo Daimao]

As they leave, Trunks asks Krillin if he could take this to his mom for him, explaining that he wants to train with his dad, since he could probably go beyond Super Saiyan as well. Krillin doubts Vegeta would let him, but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner.

Oh, this was before the ROSAT. I figured this was after.

Also: but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner

They went in together. They must have trained together at least to some extent. Trunks seems to know pretty well when and how Vegeta surpassed the limit of normal SSJ.

Yeah, that's probable. But before they went into the RoSaT, Vegeta was standing on the mountain for three days, seeing beyond Super Saiyan (as Goku says - similar to what Goku himself did in the RoSaT when he was sitting on the floor for a long time before standing up and becoming SSjG2 and then SSjG3). When Goku teleported to Trunks and asked him how the training was going, Trunks replied that Vegeta saw him as just a mistake and he'd been standing on the mountain for three days.

[Michsi]

I always assumed that he was standing there for three days and telling Trunks to get lost because he himself didn't know what to do to surpass the limit of the SSJ.

And I was referring to the result of his ROSAT training and that he did use a partner to help himself get stronger.

[dbgtFO]

I think it's funny that Vegeta was absolutely right in his speech when he invaded Earth. Y'know, the one where Goku says "Nuh-uh!" and we're all supposed to agree with him?

Which speech?

The one where Vegeta tells Goku that he is low class Saiyan scum and that he could never overcome the wall between them, which Goku doesn't agree with. It's right before they fight.

[Rocketman]

I think it's funny that Vegeta was absolutely right in his speech when he invaded Earth. Y'know, the one where Goku says "Nuh-uh!" and we're all supposed to agree with him?

Which speech?

"It doesn't matter how hard you work because some people are just born better".

[Bussani]

Also: but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner

They went in together. They must have trained together at least to some extent. Trunks seems to know pretty well when and how Vegeta surpassed the limit of normal SSJ.

They only went in together because of the limited time, and then Vegeta went in alone the second time even after seeing the progress Goku and Gohan had made together. For someone who apparently must have known it was better to train with someone, he sure avoided it like the plague.

And how could Trunks not know when Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan? They're the only two life forms in the room. It'd be pretty hard to miss.

[Michsi]

Also: but Trunks figures even his dad must realize that his training would go quicker if he had a partner

They went in together. They must have trained together at least to some extent. Trunks seems to know pretty well when and how Vegeta surpassed the limit of normal SSJ.

They only went in together because of the limited time, and then Vegeta went in alone the second time even after seeing the progress Goku and Gohan had made together. For someone who apparently must have known it was better to train with someone, he sure avoided it like the plague.

And how could Trunks not know when Vegeta surpassed Super Saiyan? They're the only two life forms in the room. It'd be pretty hard to miss.

I really doubt they went they're seperate ways after entering. I was saying that he had pretty good insight about what Vegeta could or could not do, which, if you ask me, is a pretty clear indication that they spent at leats some time together. Doesn't Trunks even get worried after seeing Vegeta's enthusiasm when entering the room about spending an entire year with the likes of him.

And about the fact that he choses to go in alone: maybe he trains better alone? He seemed to do pretty well reaching SSJ on his own.

[dbgtFO]

I really doubt they went they're seperate ways after entering. I was saying that he had pretty good insight about what Vegeta could or could not do, which, if you ask me, is a pretty clear indication that they spent at leats some time together. Doesn't Trunks even get worried after seeing Vegeta's enthusiasm when entering the room about spending an entire year with the likes of him.

And about the fact that he choses to go in alone: maybe he trains better alone? He seemed to do pretty well reaching SSJ on his own.

According to Trunks, Vegeta didn't know Trunks was technically stronger than him(because of achieving SSJ G3). Which is also weird, since they are the only two in the room together.

It's stated that training together is far more efficient than training alone. Nothing is said about Vegeta's solitary training being better than that.

[Michsi]

I also think that's weird, that's why I said that "to some extent". But then again Gohan didn't know his dad's full power and those two probably did spend the entire time together.

It's stated that training together is far more efficient than training alone. Nothing is said about Vegeta's solitary training being better than that.

I was saying that it might fit Vegeta's style better. When training with someone you have to mind the others pace. Vegeta doesn't seem to have the patience for that though.

[dbgtFO]

It doesn't change the fact, that Vegeta is knowingly doing something that is much less efficient than what Goku and Gohan did.

[Michsi]

Fair enough.

I still think it's a matter of oppinion, though. Goku trained with Piccolo and Gohan for three years, and while Gohan might have still been weaker , Piccolo still seemed to be in Vegeta's "not bad" category, so I'm assuming you could count him as a competant sparring partner.

Not to mention both Trunks and Piccolo went in separately too. It doesn't seem to be something that just Vegeta does.

[p123]

Na man. Vegeta has always had no problem keeping up with Goku, it's just that Goku gets there faster. Vegeta even is implied to have SSJ3 and be somewhere near Goku at the end of Z. So Vegeta is doing just fine, he's only a step behind, and always catches up to Goku.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think it's funny that Vegeta was absolutely right in his speech when he invaded Earth. Y'know, the one where Goku says "Nuh-uh!" and we're all supposed to agree with him?

Which speech?

"It doesn't matter how hard you work because some people are just born better".

Oh yeah. Ironically, Vegeta, who was born better than Goku, ended up being surpassed by Goku, who was kinda both born better and worked hard too, even after Vegeta started working his ass off too.