Nappa vs Guldo

[SuperForteX]

To be fair though, the 4000 reading is listed multiple times in multiple different official sources dating back to Weekly Jump itself, according to Kanzentai.com. It's also the level given for him in nearly every video game that bothers with battle power numbers.

As you can see from my earlier post in this same topic though, I also feel like 4000 is wrong, for the above stated reasons.

I just wonder how could they have gotten it wrong? I believe Herms actually made a topic about it a while ago, since the time I lurked/joined anyway. Not just about Nappa's BP, but about other contradictions with the guidebooks as well.

[rereboy]

To be fair though, the 4000 reading is listed multiple times in multiple different official sources dating back to Weekly Jump itself, according to Kanzentai.com. It's also the level given for him in nearly every video game that bothers with battle power numbers.

As you can see from my earlier post in this same topic though, I also feel like 4000 is wrong, for the above stated reasons.

I just wonder how could they have gotten it wrong? I believe Herms actually made a topic about it a while ago, since the time I lurked/joined anyway. Not just about Nappa's BP, but about other contradictions with the guidebooks as well.

I'm willing to bet that they "figured out" that Nappa was 4000 because he seemed really shocked that someone with a power level of 5000 was coming to battle them and also because Son Gohan's rage blast, which wasn't even 3000, almost "hurt" his arm.

The story, as usual, is not very coherent in regard to how the power levels translate to what is happening.

However, even considering this, I believe it would more sense to have Nappa at 5000, 6000 or 6500 than 4000.

[SuperForteX]

[warning: not exact quotes]
Q: Did you have the character's strengths mapped out ahead of times.
A: To a certain extent, but it'd constantly change while I draw

^
Maybe the best answer. I think up until Goku showed up, Nappa's power was 4000 at its limit. Then after Goku showed up, and Akira Toriyama wanted a better lead in to the Vegeta struggle, he retconned Nappa's strengh into "able to match Goku all along."

A similar situation could possibly exist for the whole kid buu super buu thing, right? Up until Goku came back to life, Toriyama had Gohan >Goku and Super Buu > Kid Buu. After he decided that Gohan couldn't fit the role, he switched it up and retconed Goku > Gohan Kid Buu > Super BUu, so there's one moment in the story where a character stops being as strong as they were.

What do you guys think of this theory?

[CatouttaHell]

Piccolo was absolutely useless against Nappa. In fact, in the manga, Piccolo fainted with just one blow from Nappa.

But Nappa, once he focused, was actually able to fight somewhat evenly with Goku.

Goku was stated in the manga to have a power level of over 8000. So, if Nappa had a power level of 4000, he should have been more helpless against Goku than Piccolo was agaisnt him. So, logically, Nappa had to be stronger than 4000. Perhaps 5000 or 6000.

Also, Piccolo's V-Jump level is 3,500. Piccolo should've held his own at least for a bit against FULL POWER Nappa if the V-Jump numbers were right. And Piccolo being 3,500 contradicts him being weaker than Son Gohan's 2,800 as well.

[Fox666]

Also, Piccolo's V-Jump level is 3,500. Piccolo should've held his own at least for a bit against FULL POWER Nappa if the V-Jump numbers were right.

The manga provides a very few moments which Piccolo do anything against Nappa. You can't just say their battle power should be this or that based on it.

For record, here are all the situations which Piccolo confronted Nappa or so:

And Piccolo being 3,500 contradicts him being weaker than Son Gohan's 2,800 as well.

Except that was never mentioned in the manga or nowhere...

Piccolo was absolutely useless against Nappa. In fact, in the manga, Piccolo fainted with just one blow from Nappa.

Yeah, but Cui and Dodoria were obliterated with much less than that. Such a rule don't exist.

But Nappa, once he focused, was actually able to fight somewhat evenly with Goku.

Goku was stated in the manga to have a power level of over 8000. So, if Nappa had a power level of 4000, he should have been more helpless against Goku than Piccolo was agaisnt him. So, logically, Nappa had to be stronger than 4000. Perhaps 5000 or 6000.

You can't "measure" any of that.

To be fair though, the 4000 reading is listed multiple times in multiple different official sources dating back to Weekly Jump itself, according to Kanzentai.com. It's also the level given for him in nearly every video game that bothers with battle power numbers.

I wonder, do you guys believe that the Daizenshuu sinply would include that kind of information without it coming directly from Toriyama?

If that was the case, why isn't there any record after the Freeza saga or movies? While Toriyama never created battle powers after the Freeza saga, that shouldn't stop a bunch of random guys working for magazines to do so

Besides, how it happened for both Weekly Jump and Daizenshuu having almost the same numbers? If it really was made up stuff, shouldn't it end up like the videogames, which every game gives a different amount for (example) Reecome?

[rereboy]

[warning: not exact quotes]
Q: Did you have the character's strengths mapped out ahead of times.
A: To a certain extent, but it'd constantly change while I draw

^
Maybe the best answer. I think up until Goku showed up, Nappa's power was 4000 at its limit. Then after Goku showed up, and Akira Toriyama wanted a better lead in to the Vegeta struggle, he retconned Nappa's strengh into "able to match Goku all along."

A similar situation could possibly exist for the whole kid buu super buu thing, right? Up until Goku came back to life, Toriyama had Gohan >Goku and Super Buu > Kid Buu. After he decided that Gohan couldn't fit the role, he switched it up and retconed Goku > Gohan Kid Buu > Super BUu, so there's one moment in the story where a character stops being as strong as they were.

What do you guys think of this theory?

Maybe on the Nappa situation, but not on the Kid Buu situation.

Goku clearly states that Super Buu would kill him and Vegeta if they fought him without fusing but he is willing to fight Kid Buu on his own and even states that if he can focus all his power as a SSJ3, he is able to kill Kid Buu. And later, when Goku suggest bringing Gohan and the kids to fight, Vegeta simply states that its time for all the people of Earth to have their part in saving themselves, implying that Toriyama didn't forget that that would be the most natural solution to kill Kid Buu but it be a "cheap" conclusion.

You can't "measure" any of that.

I don't need to be able to measure his power accurately to be able to tell that a power level of 5000 or 6000 or even 6500 for Nappa would fit better in the story than 4000. Its simple logic.

I wonder, do you guys believe that the Daizenshuu sinply would include that kind of information without it coming directly from Toriyama?

If that was the case, why isn't there any record after the Freeza saga or movies? While Toriyama never created battle powers after the Freeza saga, that shouldn't stop a bunch of random guys working for magazines to do so

Besides, how it happened for both Weekly Jump and Daizenshuu having almost the same numbers? If it really was made up stuff, shouldn't it end up like the videogames, which every game gives a different amount for (example) Reecome?

Why? You believe that every single information in the Daizenshuu comes from Toriyama and is checked by him?

As for why there were no power levels after the Freeza saga, is simply because they didn't have any indicators to figure out power levels without completely making them up after that point in the manga. A few good examples are the numbers for Freeza and Goku during their battle that came with the Daizenshuu. By that time Toriyama had already dropped power levels completely but they still had numbers for them in the Daizenshuu because they could figure out probable numbers for them from the last number of the manga (over 1 million for Freeza second form) and from the several Kaiokens that Goku used (which multiplied his power by a fixed number) and Freeza's percentage of power usage.

As for why the others used the same number, its simply because they copied the only "official" source of Nappa's power that existed.

[Fox666]

I don't need to be able to measure his power accurately to be able to tell that a power level of 5000 or 6000 or even 6500 for Nappa would fit better in the story than 4000. Its simple logic.

There is no "logic" behind such a thing, that's my point. You can't say that Nappa need % of Goku's power to match him, because such a rule don't exist at all.

Besides, I could say that Dodoria having a battle power of 10,000 would "fit better in the story" since he was humilhated by Vegeta. However how I fell about the story doesn't matter, battle powers aren't a perfect combat system.

Why? You believe that every single information in the Daizenshuu comes from Toriyama and is checked by him?

"Every single" no, but I do think these battle powers are from some memo or something from Toriyama.

As for why the others used the same number, its simply because they copied the only "official" source of Nappa's power that existed.

It's not like that Weekly Jump is a so well know source, or a source which they should avoid conflict. To say the truth, for me it looks more like the Weekly Jump is just a random publication out of nowhere.

And despite that, the Daizenshuu match most of the numbers, from the pre-Raditz characters up to the saiyan saga.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

While it's never outright stated as a "rule" within the universe, we're able to see what happens when there's a large enough difference in power between two fighters.

If Nappa is indeed 4,000 max, he's only half as strong as Goku. Meaning, Nappa can't do anything to Goku. His ultimate technique seems to imply he was capable of doing some nice damage to Goku if he weren't able to counter it as quickly as he did. So it only makes sense for their powers to be close. Either that, or his ultimate technique went beyond his normal Battle Power, similar to Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha against Raditz.

[Fox666]

First of all, Nappa engaging in an "equal" battle with Goku in 3 panels don't count against 30 pages which Nappa is completely humiliated.

During these 30 pages Nappa was absolute no match, in both strength and speed. Goku could dodge anything Nappa tried, and when Nappa managed to direct hit Goku with a blast it didn't leave even an scratch. So actually there is some basis for Nappa being at half of Goku strength (4,000), it's not something completely unforeseen.

I have seem some explaining it (how Nappa managed to do better in the last moment) through a power-up, but that would have been the 3rd time which Nappa powered-up in the same battle (first against Piccolo & co., second against Goku in the very beggining) which seems unlikely.

At the best, Nappa built an strategy through his Kiai explosive technique, which ambushed Goku.

Either that, or his ultimate technique went beyond his normal Battle Power, similar to Goku's Kame-Hame-Ha against Raditz.

Isn't that thing which Nappa is covered by an aura an special technique? He did it a few times, and increased his destructive power (i.e. cutting Tenshinhan arm with a punch) for a few pages.

[Piccolo Daimao]

So, we're back to the whole "Does 4,000 make sense for Nappa?" topic. *sigh*

On-topic, Gurd would win because of his psychic powers, despite being much weaker than Nappa.

[Kaboom]

4000 for Nappa is one of those levels worth raising an eyebrow over in doubt, but not really "impossible." Heck, I could just chalk it up to him being very, very durable. Guy's built like a tank.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

First of all, Nappa engaging in an "equal" battle with Goku in 3 panels don't count against 30 pages which Nappa is completely humiliated.

Maybe. But that all seemed to disappear when he took his head out of his ass. Nappa was just a plain idiot during the initial part of their battle. He didn't even believe Goku's Battle Power was real.

During these 30 pages Nappa was absolute no match, in strength and speed. Goku could dodge anything did, and when Nappa managed to direct hit Goku with a blast it didn't leave even an scratch. So actually there is some basis for Nappa being at half of Goku strength (4,000) iis not something completely unforeseen.

But something had to have changed. Goku effortlessly blew away Nappa's Chi-attack with a kiai, and simply dodged everything he threw at him. Once Nappa calmed down, he was able to keep up with Goku far better than he did on those previous pages. So, Nappa either calmed down and utilized his power better to at least rival Goku's, or Goku held-back and wanted Nappa to believe he had a chance.

Goku did notice a change in him after their brief clash and seemed genuinely impressed, so...

I have seem some explaining it through a power-up, but that would have been the 3rd time which Nappa powered-up in the same battle (first against Piccolo & co., second against Goku in the very beggining) which seems unlikely.

I don't think he attacked the other guys with all of his power. He already knew they were ants, so it makes sense for him to not go at them with everything. After seeing what Goku was capabe of, and being told by Vegeta to focus and stop being an idiot, he had a reason to use all of his power and not play around.

At the best, Nappa built an strategy through his Kiai explosive technique, which ambushed Goku.

Possibly, but I think he expected Goku to dodge it. He didn't seem too surprised when he saw Goku flying away from the explosion.

Isn't that thing which Nappa is covered by an aura an special technique? He did it a few times, and increased his destructive power (i.e. curring Tenshinhan arm with a punch) for a few seconds.

The ultimate technique is his mouth blast. He was shocked that Goku stopped it, while Goku basically admitted he would've been in trouble if he didn't stop it.

[Fox666]

I don't think he attacked the other guys with all of his power. He already knew they were ants, so it makes sense for him to not go at them with everything. After seeing what Goku was capabe of, and being told by Vegeta to focus and stop being an idiot, he had a reason to use all of his power and not play around.

Isn't that a problem? As far I remember Freeza was the only one who powered-up more than once in a battle, and that was an ability unique of him.

Nappa on the other hand would have powered-up 3 times (if you are gonna call that aura surrounding thing an "power-up").

Possibly, but I think he expected Goku to dodge it. He didn't seem too surprised when he saw Goku flying away from the explosion.

But that was the strategy. He made Goku dodge his attack and took him by surprise.

The ultimate technique is his mouth blast. He was shocked that Goku stopped it, while Goku basically admitted he would've been in trouble if he didn't stop it.

The Daizenshuu 4 classify Nappa's attack as a "concentration-type" (among the Makankosappo), in opposition to the Kamehame-ha which is a "basic-type".

Overall we can't judge strength based in the clash of special attacks. Goku fired a Kamehame-ha at over 24,000 and still would loose to Vegeta's special technique despite his superiority in power.

Maybe. But that all seemed to disappear when he took his head out of his ass. Nappa was just a plain idiot during the initial part of their battle. He didn't even believe Goku's Battle Power was real.

But something had to have changed. Goku effortlessly blew away Nappa's Chi-attack with a kiai, and simply dodged everything he threw at him. Once Nappa calmed down, he was able to keep up with Goku far better than he did on those previous pages. So, Nappa either calmed down and utilized his power better to at least rival Goku's, or Goku held-back and wanted Nappa to believe he had a chance.

Goku did notice a change in him after their brief clash and seemed genuinely impressed, so...

My problem is that the "change" in Nappa's power is purely based in 2 pages



I don't believe this is enough to judge Nappa's strength. If the guides says Nappa strength didn't changed at that moment, I believe on it

[Kaboom]

Even after Nappa put on a better performance, Goku was still talking down to him, saying stuff like, "good job! That's much better!" like he's a little kid. He then proceeds to counter Nappa's biggest, most powerful, "ultimate" attack with a quick, uncharged blast of his own, and giving no more of a response afterwards than, "wow, that actually made me sweat a little!"

It may look even for that small segment, but the important thing to remember is... it's not even. The whole time, Goku's barely even trying.

So yeah, I think way too much undue emphasis is placed on Nappa's 2-page, kinda-but-not-reall-even scuffle with Goku. His slightly improved efforts were for moot, and they certainly don't outweigh the plethora of other pages where he's getting straight-up pwned. Finally, like I mentioned before, his capability to take hits from someone so much stronger than himself is most likely explainable just by his big and beefy build more than anything else.

Personally, were I rewriting the books, I'd adjust things to give Nappa a little more credit and put him at 5000-6000 instead. But 4000 is acceptable too, given the narrative course of the fight.

[Fox666]

Finally, like I mentioned before, his capability to take hits from someone so much stronger than himself is most likely explainable just by his big and beefy build more than anything else.

That's not strange for me. Durability always played an important role in the series, and its importance was mentioned in the 23rd Budokai.

We have guys like Kuririn who are taken down by one hit, or Cui and Dodoria who are vaporized by a simply Kiai or blast from the opponent. On the other hand, Vegeta's stamina is mentioned multiple times. And there is also Rikum, whom took multiplies Final Flash-like attacks and was practically unharmed.

[SuperForteX]

So, we're back to the whole "Does 4,000 make sense for Nappa?" topic. *sigh*

Why would you sigh? We're on the In-Universe sub board, sorry people enjoy talking about this stuff.

Talking about Nappa's power level and his guidebook listing is fun, and engaging, and makes a lot of DB fans think about things 'outside the box' working together to come up with a solution, that's what you call "coming together as a community."

That being said, Kaboom, you are wrong. It is impossible for Nappa to be as low as 4000. The reason is, Nappa displayed far more than simple resistance to damage against Goku. In terms of speed and strength, he also was Goku's match!

He was dodging Goku's attacks as well as "tanking" them, that's not a feat of durability, but one of speed. In terms of Strength, his ultimate attack "took [Goku's] attack head on!" to quote Goku himself. He was amazed that his kamehameha was stopped by Nappa's blast, the same way Nappa was surprised his own blast was stopped by Goku.

Vegeta then went on to say that it could take all day with them fighting, while Goku himself also admitted "I guess you're tougher than I thought, this could take forever without Kaioken."

It's not a simple matter of trying to write off Nappa surviving Goku's attacks as well as he did, but also a matter of trying to account for Nappa's showings of speed and strength well beyond the level of a 4000BP. WELL beyond it.

Edit: Lastly, Herms already shot down a lot of Viz's lines from the Goku and Nappa fight, right here on this very board. I had a link to the thread posted before, but I'm sure it can be found easily with the Search button. Suffice it to say, Goku's line about "whew that one made me sweat" was actually an exclamation of how Nappa stopped his blast. (see above)

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Good points, Fox. However, when strictly looking at it from the quotes, well....

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P14.2
Context: after Goku has been outclassing Nappa
Vegeta: “Nappa!!!! Get a hold of yourself, fool!!!! He’s not an opponent you can’t take if you keep your head!!! Calm down!!!!”

Vegeta thinks Nappa can take Goku if he stops acting like an idiot. The same Vegeta likely knows his partner's capabilities. I doubt he'd be so confident in Nappa winning if he's that much weaker than Goku. He also seems annoyed that he might have to actually fight Goku.

Chapter: 226, (DBZ 32), P1.1
Nappa: “I really had lost my head. Now it’s time for me to show you me at my best.”

Wasn't going at Goku with the best of his abilities. Planned to do such once he started thinking straight.

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P5.2
Context: after fighting with ‘calm’ Nappa
Goku: “Heh! You’ve really gotten serious, haven’cha?!”

Goku doesn't seem to be talking down to Nappa like he's a child there. It just sounds like Saiyan amusement, which is displayed by Goku plenty of times while facing a strong opponent. I think Nappa not only impressed him, but gained his interest in actually participating in the fight. Goku wasn't playing around.

Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Vegeta: “Unbelievable!! To instantly deflect it at that short of a distance!”
Goku: “Phew. If I had taken that one head on, I’d have been in trouble!!”
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hit a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”

Self-explanatory.

Nappa does not have to be over 8,000 (I think he's at that level, but slightly weaker than Goku's over 8,000 Battle Power) for this to take place--but he seriously can't do all of the above with a measly Battle Power of 4,000 which makes him half as strong as his opponent. It just wouldn't make any sense at all.

[SuperForteX]

Indeed, brother Turlast. So do you see now Kaboom? It's not a simple matter of durability, rather--it's one of speed, and strength. How can you account for this if you rate him at a lowly 4000BP? Aside from blind faith towards, or refusal to go against, the Daizenshuu... I really can't see any justification...

[Kaboom]

I prefer to try finding viable explanations for the numbers in the books, rather than simply dismissing them when they seem "wrong." But like I said, if I were writing them, I'd put him at more like 6000. (Un)fortunately, I'm not.

[CatouttaHell]

If you go by the guidebooks then the difference between Son Goku and FP Nappa is at least as big as that between SSjin 2 Gohan and SSjin Gohan.