Did Gohan lose the Super Saiyan form?

[SuperForteX]

Dragon Ball GT is the offical continuation of Dragon Ball's story, and never once has Akira Toriyama, nor anyone else from Dragon Ball's creative development camp ever stepped forward and said that it is not canon.

Besides, the topic creator mentioned GT in his original post--so how about actually reading the flow of the conversation instead of jumping all over me with your blatant GT hate? Gohan becoming SSj in GT was part of the original question being asked in this topic.

[CatouttaHell]

You could always fanwank an idea along the lines of: "As Gohan got older, his potential continued to grow. Once it grew beyond the point which the elder Kaioshiin had released it years prior, since he took Gohan's power past his max, he could return to using the transformation to gain more power that is now outside what the ritual allowed access to". Or it that confused you, lol, if Gohan had a power of 10, a potential of 100 and the elder Kaioshin brought his power to 150, then once his potential rose above that over time, he could transform again.

Yeah, that's basically what I think, except worded a lot better.

SSjin Gohan - 1,700,000,000,000,000
Chou Gohan - 34,000,000,000,000

GT characters are on a completely different tier than most Z characters. Chibi Boo was the strongest guy in the entire series going by the Anime and Goku is above him in base. Considering that, Gohan just naturally getting a SSjin boost over his Chou form is entirely plausible IMO.

[Fox666]

Dragon Ball GT is the offical continuation of Dragon Ball's story

"Official" is a term related merely to exclusive rights and payment. If a executive from Toei decided that they will do a cross-over beetween Dragon Ball and Pokémon, that would be 100% official.

and never once has Akira Toriyama, nor anyone else from Dragon Ball's creative development camp ever stepped forward and said that it is not canon.

That don't prove anything. Toriyama would never use such a fan-created term as "canon".

I recommend you to actually read the interviews of Toriyama of his opinion over the anime and GT.

[Zephyr]

Dragon Ball GT is the offical continuation of Dragon Ball's story, and never once has Akira Toriyama, nor anyone else from Dragon Ball's creative development camp ever stepped forward and said that it is not canon.

The Garlic Jr. saga was an official filler arc in the story too. Toriyama (unless I'm mistaken) never said anything regarding its canonicity, but we can tell just by looking at the events as they're depicted in the story that it can't under any circumstance be canon (since they stem from a movie that blatantly contradicts the manga and the anime), unless you want to incorporate fanon asspulls.

My point is that just because no one's said anything about something being canon or not doesn't change the fact that it contradicts the story like nobody's business. That's why people refute GT, the movies, and filler, because for the most part they blatantly contradict what little logic the manga (the base version of the story itself) set for the series.

[Eddie]

But then why can he go Super Saiyan in Dragon Ball GT? And keep in mind, this is the In-Universe subboard, so no explanation about "Akira Toriyama didn't write DBGT" is going to fly here. Does the GT Perfect Files touch on this at all?

This is the In-Universe board, but that doesn't mean the "It's GT" response is invalid. GT completely contradicts some of the basic laws of the DB universe. Besides, the fact that this is In-Universe section discussion does not mean every person must acknowledge GT. This is not the "OMG GT IS CANONZ" board, so I don't see how the standard answer that GT is full of nonsense won't fly here. As for your implications that GT is the only official sequel, what the hell is DBO? What if someone were to ask a question Involving Booby or the post Z invasion of Freeza's army? If this board was all about viewing GT as the definitive continuation of the Dragon Ball universe, how would we answer the question?

[Rocketman]

GT characters are on a completely different tier than most Z characters. Chibi Boo was the strongest guy in the entire series going by the Anime and Goku is above him in base. Considering that, Gohan just naturally getting a SSjin boost over his Chou form is entirely plausible IMO.

So why could Goten, who's never trained worth two shits in his whole life, fight Mystic Gohan and not immediately get stomped?

[CatouttaHell]

So why could Goten, who's never trained worth two shits in his whole life, fight Mystic Gohan and not immediately get stomped?

Son Goten and Trunks improved a lot too. Base Trunks one-shotted Yakon, who gave Boo Arc Base Goku trouble. Bebi Goten only overpowered Chou Gohan when he went SSjin 2. Gohan was purposefully holding back too, to avoid killing his possessed brother. He's not Vegeta who was about to gleefully kill Gohan and Bebi at once.

[Fox666]

Base Goku fought evenly with Pikkon who one-shot Cell. These guys really improve fast, don't?

[CatouttaHell]

Base Goku fought evenly with Paikuhan who one-shot Cell. These guys really improve fast, don't?

I don't see what this has to do with anything. Paikuhan used a Kaio-ken style attack to one-shot Cell. He didn't use it on Goku though because it'd be overkill.

[Travis Touchdown]

My personal fanon on why Gohan doesn't use SSJ against Buu but does in GT is this;

No he didn't lose SSJ. The ability to become a SSJ is written into his DNA. Elder Kaioshin can't just erase that. He has all of his potential, or hidden power if you will, drawn out. I believe each SSJ form has a cap & once you break that cap you can't make the form any stronger & you advance to the next level. With all of Gohan's potential drawn out, his base form is lightyears above what his hypothetical SSJ3 strength would be. He could still transform, but it wouldn't do anything but burn through his ki faster.

While I believe Gohan did train some before GT as somebody had to be training Pan as I find it unlikely she'd remember everything Goku taught her at age 4 & be able to advance all by herself at her age, I believe he wasn't training at the caliber necessary to retain that level of power & naturally got "weak" enough that SSJ makes him stronger than his base again.

[Dabooyaka]

DaizEX. The segment of the DB fanbase that has no imagination.

A large part of the fanbase hates GT and just responds to all GT debates with stuff like "it's GT so it's bullshit and makes no sense." I made a thread on Neoseeker recently debating GT Goku vs. Vegetto and the vast majority of the replies were just "it's GT so it's BULLSHIT, this isn't canon, etc."

That's because it"s Bullshit.
If Gohan could have gone Super Saiyan, i doubt he would have let Bootenks kick his ass.

[Savage68]

I think it's important to acknowledge that Gohan in the Boo arc isn't Gohan in GT. So... the circumstances surrounding his Ultimate power-up aren't the same, and moreover, one single instance instance of sloppy writing (that isn't even technically wrong) can't speak for an entire show.

[CatouttaHell]

That's because it"s Bullshit.
If Gohan could have gone Super Saiyan, i doubt he would have let Bootenks kick his ass.

If you even read my post you'd know I was talking about GT, not the Boo Arc.

[Rocketman]

Son Goten improved a lot too.

How? By going on dates and not training at all? I'm willing to accept some power gains just from growing into a stronger body, but Zeus' beard, man. You're really gonna say Goten farting about for fifteen years put him on Mystic Gohan's level?

[CatouttaHell]

How? By going on dates and not training at all? I'm willing to accept some power gains just from growing into a stronger body, but Zeus' beard, man. You're really gonna say Goten farting about for fifteen years put him on Mystic Gohan's level?

In SSjin 2, yes. There's nothing to say he didn't train at all. Goten probably has the most potential of anybody but Goku. And he was shown sparring with Goku at the end of DBZ so he probably did train somewhat. 15 years of that was enough for him to achieve SSjin 2 and increase his power many, many times over due to his potential.

Could also just have been Bebi giving him some kind of power increase against Chou Gohan too.

[Travis Touchdown]

I'm lost. I've read that Trunks & Goten were in fact SSJ2 in GT, but then I've read stuff that says SSJ2 isn't used at all in GT. Did they actually reach it?

[CatouttaHell]

I'm lost. I've read that Trunks & Goten were in fact SSJ2 in GT, but then I've read stuff that says SSJ2 isn't used at all in GT. Did they actually reach it?

As far as I could tell, they definitely used it. Trunks went into some SSjin form filled with lightning when Bebi tried to possess him to drive him out. And Goten went SSjin 2 against Chou Gohan. He only overpowered Chou Gohan and made him go SSjin when he went SSjin 2. When someone is in SSjin and they apparently go SSjin while in SSjin, it's SSjin 2 in GT. Goten's power increased dramatically and IIRC his aura and hair changed somewhat.

The GT Perfect Files says SSjin 2 doesn't appear in GT but that is a blatant contradiction. Goku very, very clearly goes SSjin 2 against Metal Rild for about 15 seconds, and then goes SSjin 2 in between SSjin and SSjin 3 the second time he fights Bebi. His hair changes into his SSjin 2 hairstyle and he's surrounded by lightning.

[Rocketman]

I just can't buy that Goten in SS2 is stronger than Gotenks in SS3.

To me, it just makes far more sense that Gohan lost his Mystic upgrade than that everybody else got super-awesome-all-potential-unlocked-gift-from-the-king-of-the-gods strong by doing regular training or kissing girls/running a company while avoiding training as much as possible.

Buu Arc:
SS Goten can surprise SS Gohan with his speed and strength, but would ultimately lose a fight.
SS2 Gohan is weaker than SS2 Vegeta, but still somewhere around there.

GT:
Goten+Baby can fight Gohan hard enough to force Gohan to use his full power.
Gohan+Baby can fight Vegeta hard enough to force Vegeta to use his full power.

The same relations between powers are around. I just don't see the reason to say "Oh yeah, in the second they're all stronger than Mystic Gohan".

[SuperForteX]

The first half of GT was written by the guy that who did the Other World Tournament filler arc for Z. This is the same guy that had Pikkon knock Mega Cell out with one kick, then later struggle against Base Goku. Why?

Because, and he had Pikkon utter this on-camera in some of the scenes, Goku was getting stronger as the tournament progressed.

This guy truly believes that Goku and co. can get much, much stronger from just a little bit of training, or engaging in one or two casual fights, or even from watching others fight and learning from it.

It's his logic, so that's the way DBGT works. Goten most definilty was that strong, as we see him give Gohan a good fight while possesed by Baby.

[CatouttaHell]

I just can't buy that Goten in SS2 is stronger than Gotenks in SS3.

To me, it just makes far more sense that Gohan lost his Mystic upgrade than that everybody else got super-awesome-all-potential-unlocked-gift-from-the-king-of-the-gods strong by doing regular training or kissing girls/running a company while avoiding training as much as possible.

Buu Arc:
SS Goten can surprise SS Gohan with his speed and strength, but would ultimately lose a fight.
SS2 Gohan is weaker than SS2 Vegeta, but still somewhere around there.

GT:
Goten+Baby can fight Gohan hard enough to force Gohan to use his full power.
Gohan+Baby can fight Vegeta hard enough to force Vegeta to use his full power.

The same relations between powers are around. I just don't see the reason to say "Oh yeah, in the second they're all stronger than Mystic Gohan".

Believe me, I see your point. But even with that you have to accept Goten trained hard enough to not be terribly far from Vegeta, or that Vegeta maxed out. GT Base Goku is stronger than Chibi Boo who would kick Super Vegetto's arse (please don't murder me) by Toei logic so that in itself is proof of incomprehensibly massive power increases.

For Goten to achieve SSjin 2 I think he would have to have done a fair amount of training. And keep in mind this is Toei world, not Toriyama world. This kind of stuff happens all the time in Toei world. In Movie 5 Base Goku is randomly stronger than 100% Freeza, in Movie 10 Base Gohan is randomly stronger than SSjin Goten and Trunks, in Movie 13 SSjin Goku is randomly on par with Chou Gohan, etc. Toei doesn't consider any power increases to be ridiculous, and they don't believe there needs to be any stated reason for them.

Oob is on par with Base Goku at the beginning of GT but after running off and doing some MOUNTAIN TRAINING he's strong to actually briefly hold his own against a guy who's leagues above SSjin 3 Goku.