Not quite a PL debate about Freeza.

[BleachTrunks]

I don't think it is ever said that his 4th form is the one he was in at birth... but I think it is inferable from the statement he made about using transformations to conserve his energy. I always assumed his 4th form to be his true self and all his other forms to be conservation forms. However, I suppose it is entirely plausible that any one of his forms except his first could be his birth form... and that, due to Cold looking very similar to Freeza's second form, someone could make a compeling case that Freeza's brith form was actually his second form since it is never stated that Cold can even transform at all to my knowledge. Seems like it is all guess work anyway.

[MyVisionity]

Really? In the English version(edit), he says that he's in his 3rd form.. :/

No, I believe in FUNi's he says he's in the "3rd transformed state", which would be his fourth form. It's just a different wording choice.

[Duo]

Cold was stated to be stronger when Mecha Freeza and Cold approached Earth. Someone sensed Freeza's ki, and an even stronger one with him.

Well, I was hoping for some kind of proof, but such deliverance isn't present...really...anywhere I go.

Here are the lines, top to bottom, from everyone who sensed them as they approached earth.

"Gohan...do you feel that Monstrous Chi?!"

"A-Are ou sure that Chi is Freeza's?!"

"And it's not just one...there's another one with it..."

"K-k-kuririn...did you notice?! Th-there's another big Chi, just like Freeza's...!!"

"W'll, duh...How do you think I'm gonna miss a chi like that...?"

"W-wait...Freeza's Chi...he's THAT powerful...?"

"This is nothing...he gets way stronger than this!"

"Y-you guys actually fought...with a m-monster like that...?"

"What good will we do by getting closer...?! They're...They're...BEHEMOTHS! And there's Two of them!!"

[Gamingdevil]

The only quote I recall that mentioned a higher power level than Frieza's is when Trunks stepped in and transformed into a SSJ.

[Akira]

From what I remember, Frieza stated that the Second form was his base form. "Form 1" is merely a scaled down regression for him to conserve energy. Makes sense considering that the strongest beings out there were the likes of Zarbon, Dodoria, Commander Ginyu, King Vegeta and Bardock. Ginyu had a max of 120,000, Bardock was what? 10,000? Frieza conserving power and reducing his 1,000,000 down to 530,000 was still an overwhelming match for even the strongest of the strongest around him back then. Frieza knew he had gained enormous strength and achieved "Form 3" and "Form 4".

Everything in that first paragraph is accurate to my knowledge. These next few paragraphs is where I will make some educated suggestions based on what we know. I think Frieza claiming to everyone on Namek that he was the strongest in the galaxy was probably true at one point, and even to Frieza's knowledge still true at that point.

If we decide to include Cooler in this discussion, then I would say he was angered at some point about Frieza being stronger than him. He said Freeza was arrogant and reckless. It is probably safe to say that after Freeza gained the power to become Form 4 at 100% he slacked off and assumed no one could get any stronger than that, not even his brother at Form 4. Cooler probably trained relentlessly and discovered Form 5, but kept it a secret from everyone. He was a more calculating person, and didn't care if Freeza claimed to be strongest, or everyone thought as much. Just knowing he was better was enough for him, it would seem. It would also explain why he was in Form 4 at the beginning of the Cooler Movie, which showed a flashback to the destruction of Planet Vegeta. While Freeza conserved his power in "Form 1" and relaxed in his personal belief of Form 4 100% being unbeatable, Cooler remained in Form 4 and continued to try and surpass the barrier there.

King Kold was in the "base form" or "Form 2" I do not believe he had ever transformed or could when they went to earth. He was probably extremely strong for a Base Form alien of thier race. It has always been my opinion, however, that it is unrealistic to estimate his power at anything greater than 5,000,000. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo, and the rest would still find 5 million to be a behemoth strength at that time.

And finally, when they mention a power greater than Freeza, it is after Trunks has arrived on the scene. While the Scouters only read a battle power of 5 off of Trunks, we know the Z team, as well as Vegeta can sense a True battle power, even a supressed one. Recall Goku versus Recoome, Vegeta was able in those instances when Goku struck to sense his true power that he was supressing for the scouters.

The fighter stronger than Freeza was Trunks that they sensed.

[Gamingdevil]

From what I remember, Freeza stated that the Second form was his base form. "Form 1" is merely a scaled down regression for him to conserve energy. Makes sense considering that the strongest beings out there were the likes of Zarbon, Dodoria, Commander Ginyu, King Vegeta and Bardock. Ginyu had a max of 120,000, Bardock was what? 10,000? Freeza conserving power and reducing his 1,000,000 down to 530,000 was still an overwhelming match for even the strongest of the strongest around him back then. Freeza knew he had gained enormous strength and achieved "Form 3" and "Form 4".

Everything in that first paragraph is accurate to my knowledge. These next few paragraphs is where I will make some educated suggestions based on what we know. I think Freeza claiming to everyone on Namek that he was the strongest in the galaxy was probably true at one point, and even to Freeza's knowledge still true at that point.

If we decide to include Cooler in this discussion, then I would say he was angered at some point about Freeza being stronger than him. He said Freeza was arrogant and reckless. It is probably safe to say that after Freeza gained the power to become Form 4 at 100% he slacked off and assumed no one could get any stronger than that, not even his brother at Form 4. Cooler probably trained relentlessly and discovered Form 5, but kept it a secret from everyone. He was a more calculating person, and didn't care if Freeza claimed to be strongest, or everyone thought as much. Just knowing he was better was enough for him, it would seem. It would also explain why he was in Form 4 at the beginning of the Cooler Movie, which showed a flashback to the destruction of Planet Vegeta. While Freeza conserved his power in "Form 1" and relaxed in his personal belief of Form 4 100% being unbeatable, Cooler remained in Form 4 and continued to try and surpass the barrier there.

King Kold was in the "base form" or "Form 2" I do not believe he had ever transformed or could when they went to earth. He was probably extremely strong for a Base Form alien of thier race. It has always been my opinion, however, that it is unrealistic to estimate his power at anything greater than 5,000,000. Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo, and the rest would still find 5 million to be a behemoth strength at that time.

And finally, when they mention a power greater than Freeza, it is after Trunks has arrived on the scene. While the Scouters only read a battle power of 5 off of Trunks, we know the Z team, as well as Vegeta can sense a True battle power, even a supressed one. Recall Goku versus Recoome, Vegeta was able in those instances when Goku struck to sense his true power that he was supressing for the scouters.

The fighter stronger than Freeza was Trunks that they sensed.

That was my point exactly, although I think the Z-Fighters sensed the power at the time Trunks slashed Freeza's henchmen at which time they didn't scout hime, but he did have a sudden burst of power.

[Xyex]

And finally, when they mention a power greater than Freeza, it is after Trunks has arrived on the scene. While the Scouters only read a battle power of 5 off of Trunks, we know the Z team, as well as Vegeta can sense a True battle power, even a supressed one. Recall Goku versus Recoome, Vegeta was able in those instances when Goku struck to sense his true power that he was supressing for the scouters.

If you have your power lowered it can't be sensed or detected in anyway. Trunks has his energy supressed, meaning no one could feel his full power. He may have burst it up to attack the soldiers, but that's it. That's also how Vegeta sensed Goku's power on Namek, Goku kept bursting it up to dodge.

[Duo]

In all the of the events, no one says anything along the lines of "That Chi is greather than Freeza's!" Not even when Trunks ascends. They just freak out and Gohan talks about how it feels like Dad's Chi.

When Trunks annhialates the Soliders, they observe that a lot of Chi's disapeared...and one huge one came out of nowhere.

That means it wasn't a sudden, burst attack like Goku used on the Ginyu Force. He upped his Chi and it stayed there. It was lower before so they wouldn't notice his precense sooner, or as to not alert the Dragon Team.


I don't know about all that nonsense regarding Form 2 Freeza as base form. He calls his 4th form his "True Form" on multiple occasions, and it isn't just an expression or anything like that. It was his original state. All below it were supressions.

King Cold's reason for being in form 2 is not known. We know almost nothing about that "Race" if you want to call it that, so there's no way to draw any conclusion. King Cold's Chi was on the same level as a highly supressed Freeza. So what?

[Akira]

If you have your power lowered it can't be sensed or detected in anyway. Trunks has his energy supressed, meaning no one could feel his full power. He may have burst it up to attack the soldiers, but that's it. That's also how Vegeta sensed Goku's power on Namek, Goku kept bursting it up to dodge.

I had in that sentence " When Goku struck". I was implying exactly what you are saying. Yes, it is only sensed when they boost it up. To anyone with a device like a scouter it seems to stay at the supressed level. I did not go into detail on that point, and I appreciate you fleshing that out further. I agree, and that was what I meant to imply. I see how it could have been read differently though by my wording.


Duo, I don't know about it being nonsense. Rewatch the episodes where Freeza and Vegeta fight each other. They seem to agree that Form 1 is just a supressed Form 2. Form 3 and 4 are full on transformations into different combat states altogether.

[Duo]

I do not "Watch Episodes" for informative purposes. My information comes from the original source. If there is something else present in the Anime, then by all means it is true...in the Anime. I only own like...20 DVD's, which, sadly, is about half a percent of a whole freaking series. Most of it is angry staring, half episode power up scenes, smoke clearing, and punch-and-miss fighting which has nothing to do with Martial Arts.

...Random grunting and moaning, too.

[Dayspring]

Although I'm nowhere near as hardcore as Duo, it's a known fact I prefer manga to anime if and when the anime contradicts something. Could you guys provide the japanese text of when Freeza says this? I'm getting the impression that it's more along the lines of why the Saiyans aren't always in SSJ: it conserves a shitload of energy.