Most overrated characters in terms of power?

[Fox666]

It shouldn't be impossible if you know the difference between what's up for interpretation and what's not. For instance, saying Recoome has a battle power of over 40k is an opinion, whereas saying 2nd form Freeza has a battle power of over a million is not an opinion.

You are the one who don't know the difference.

Gotenks didn't even existed whenever Goku said he would defeat Majin Boo. You saying it was "flat-out stated" is gibberish.

Again, it really isn't, due to the simple fact that what I'm defending is flat-out stated in the manga.

And again that's just your opp\inion.

That's appeal to the majority, a logical fallacy.

Perhaps it is. But at least you should question youself why the "facts" aren't so widely acceptable.

[Kaboom]

Goku was making a prediction. Predictions don't always necessarily come true. While Piccolo and the others complimented Gotenks on his power, none of them were saying anything like, "yes, he's definitely got enough power now! Go, Gotenks! Go right now and slay Majin Boo!" Instead, Piccolo as the one in charge was being cautious and wanted to test Gotenks instead of sending him rushing off to fight right away.

Was SSj Gotenks powerful enough to defeat Fat Boo like Goku expected him to be? Maybe. But he never got to prove himself that strong, we never got confirmation of it in the manga, and extra stuff like the guidebooks don't seem to think he definitely was (what with saying he didn't surpass 'Vegeta and the others' until after the RoSaT and all that), so we can't know for sure.

All in all, I'd personally say Gotenks is overrated even in the manga itself.

Now let's try to keep ourselves from veering too far off on-topic, okay? This whole 'how strong is Gotenks' debate has been done to death at this point.

[Fox666]

Okay, I will stop with that subject. It's not like I am sure of how strong Gotenks is, so I shouldn't sticky with such a subject.

[Kid Buu]

Gotenks is a gag character anyway, I don't think he won a fight in the manga.

[goldsaint13]

EDIT: Dammit goldsaint

I'm just saying that Goku's prediction is never proven true but neither wrong, since Majin Buu transformed in a way stronger form...

Gotenks didn't even existed whenever Goku said he would defeat Majin Boo.

Goku knew very well the effectiveness of Fusion... And he knew more or less what kind of power SSJ Gotenks would have had according to Goten's and Trunks' SSJ level...

Was SSj Gotenks powerful enough to defeat Fat Boo like Goku expected him to be? Maybe. But he never got to prove himself that strong, we never got confirmation of it in the manga, and extra stuff like the guidebooks don't seem to think he definitely was (what with saying he didn't surpass 'Vegeta and the others' until after the RoSaT and all that), so we can't know for sure.

True... Although there's a phrase from Piccolo when Super Buu was already formed, that said: "NOW they can't win even with the SSJ Fusion, they must train into the RoSaT!"

Is that a reference about Gotenks being able to beat Fat Buu with SSJ? Possibly...
At least Piccolo believed he had some chances...

All in all, I'd personally say Gotenks is overrated even in the manga itself.

The pre-RoSaT Gotenks may be overrated... Not the post-RoSaT one that proven himself to be super strong with SSJ3... His limits are two:

1. Time
2. Attitude

Not strength.

Now let's try to keep ourselves from veering too far off on-topic, okay? This whole 'how strong is Gotenks' debate has been done to death at this point.

As long as we talk about how overrated a character may be, we are not off topic... Even if we circle around the same and usual SSJ3 Gotenks, SSJ3 Goku, Kid Buu and so on...


I actually think there are more underrated characters than overrated...

Gotenks is a gag character anyway, I don't think he won a fight in the manga.

That means nothing...

Fat Buu is more "gag" than him, but even the *super-baddass-killing machine* Cell saga SSJ2 Gohan would be badly owned by him...


Actually being too playful and overconfident is Gotenks major flaw, along with the time limit...

[Fox666]

True... Although there's a phrase from Piccolo when Super Buu was already formed, that said: "NOW they can't win even with the SSJ Fusion, they must train into the RoSaT!"

Are you refering to this line?

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

Piccolo simply said Gotenks has no chance of winning, there isn't anything in his line that can be used to measure the fat Majin Boo. Besides the main problem wasn't that Majin Boo was stronger, but that he now could track Ki and arrived at Kami-sama palace.

But wait, wasn't this Gotenks vs Majin Boo subject dead?

[goldsaint13]

Piccolo simply said Gotenks had no chance of winning, there isn't anything in his line that can be used to measure the fat Majin Boo. Besides the main problem wasn't that Majin Boo was stronger, but that he now could track Ki and arrived at Kami-sama palace.

Of course... Still that phrase makes me think that Piccolo had some hopes about SSJ1 Gotenks defeating Fat Buu...

Piccolo simply said Gotenks has no chance of winning, there isn't anything in his line that can be used to measure the fat Majin Boo.

Well, he actually said "now even with Fusion they can't..................."

Does it mean they could before?

But wait, wasn't this Gotenks vs Majin Boo subject dead?

Why it should? As long as it's debated not to prove pre-RoSaT Gotenks to be stronger than some other Z-Fighter but to establish if pre-RoSaT Gotenks is an overrated character or not...

Because if he could have fefeated Fat Buu he can't be called overrated, while if he was barely SSJ2 level or something, then he's quite overrated...

[Fox666]

Would saying Nappa is overrated result in a cycle of old discussion being discussed again?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Would saying Nappa is overrated result in a cycle of old discussion being discussed again?

Probably. Unless everyone are going to be mature about it.

[jackjack]

You are the one who don't know the difference.

If you feel this way, fine, but you're supposed to explain why I'm wrong, because, you know, that's how a debate works. Otherwise you're not actually addressing my point at all.

Gotenks didn't even existed whenever Goku said he would defeat Majin Boo. You saying it was "flat-out stated" is gibberish.

I've asked you why is Gotenks' inexistence revelant, but you've yet to provide an explanation - please do that so we can continue.

And again that's just your opp\inion.

Again, please explain why that's just my opinion. You're not accomplishing anything if you just keep saying "that's just your opinion", you're just running in circles.

Perhaps it is. But at least you should question youself why the "facts" aren't so widely acceptable.

That's not a good reason for me to question myself, it only goes to show I'm not confident in what I know. If I were to question myself, it would be because someone had made a valid argument for why Goku was wrong.

I'm just saying that Goku's prediction is never proven true but neither wrong, since Majin Buu transformed in a way stronger form...

While it's not proven, it's backed up by Piccolo, so you can't possibly place him below fat Boo. The same way Goku's statement that even with KKx5 he still can't do a thing to Vegeta isn't proven, but what reason there is to doubt his words?

Does it mean they could before?

Of course it does. It's actually the first point I brought up about two pages back.

[Fox666]

Hey, what about quitting it when the moderator gently asks to stop? It's not like this subject matters

Probably. Unless everyone are going to be mature about it.

It's against my default condition!

[goldsaint13]

Would saying Nappa is overrated result in a cycle of old discussion being discussed again?

Nappa is not overrated because we have his official value compared to other Saiyan saga people...

Anyway the reason Gotenks is so discussed about is because someone would love to have a Goku stronger than him, that is not possible...

The argument here is different... If he would be barely SSj2 level before the RoSaT and many define him as SSJ3 tier we can say he is overrated...

We're not even talking about the post-RoSaT version since he clearly shown his power...

While it's not proven, it's backed up by Piccolo, so you can't possibly place him below fat Boo. The same way Goku's statement that even with KKx5 he still can't do a thing to Vegeta isn't proven, but what reason there is to doubt his words?

Of course... I personally consider pre-RoSaT Gotenks more or less on par with Fat Buu, because Goku was optimistic that they could have won, maybe with a bit of training and Piccolo is positive enough on their power although he has some little reserves and prefers to check his power with more accuracy...

Of course it does. It's actually the first point I brought up about two pages back.

Oh, I missed it...


Anyway my belief is that Gotenks in his SSJ forms is equal or a bit stronger (after the RoSaT) than the various forms of Buu... Beside of course the ones fused with himself and Gohan...

SSJ1 Gotenks ~= Fat Buu

SSJ2 Gotenks ~= Kid Buu

SSJ3 Gotenks ~= Super Buu


I find it a good scheme to define Gotenks' power...


Actually, pre-RoSaT SSJ1 Gotenks may be = Fat Buu while after the RoSaT:


Post-RoSaT SSJ1 Gotenks could destroy Fat Buu in ~5 minutes

Post-RoSaT SSJ2 Gotenks could destroy Kid Buu in ~5 minutes

Post-RoSaT SSJ3 Gotenks could destroy Super Buu in ~5 minutes (like he almost did)



It's what I feel the matter to be...

Hey, what about quitting it when the moderator gently asks to stop? It's not like this subject matters

I think the moderator is concerned more about the discussion tone than the discussed matter since discussing about pre-RoSaT Gotenks being overrated or not isn't off topic...

[CatouttaHell]

Nappa is not overrated because we have his official value compared to other Saiyan saga people...

You obviously haven't ventured beyond this forum. There's plenty of idiots in most other forums who disregard all official values and put him at 7,500/8,000 because they think their silly fan theories override the official word.

[Nazi Cola]

Nappa is not overrated because we have his official value compared to other Saiyan saga people...

You obviously haven't ventured beyond this forum. There's plenty of idiots in most other forums who disregard all official values and put him at 7,500/8,000 because they think their silly fan theories override the official word.

Oh, no...this is going to get started now.

[dbgtFO]

Nappa is not overrated because we have his official value compared to other Saiyan saga people...

You obviously haven't ventured beyond this forum. There's plenty of idiots in most other forums who disregard all official values and put him at 7,500/8,000 because they think their silly fan theories override the official word.

Oh, no...this is going to get started now.

If it is, I might as well bring some points to the table:

• Nappa was in complete shock about Goku's initial Battle Power of 5000.
• Nappa was even more shocked about Goku's "over 8000" Battle Power.
• Neither Nappa nor Vegeta believed in Goku's Battle Power being that much and instead they chose to see how good he was by watching him in action. This is shown, when Vegeta broke the scouter, Nappa saying it couldn't be true(or whatever he said), Nappa being shocked about Goku outclassing him and Vegeta standing on the sidelines wondering how Goku could do that.
• Coupled with the fact that Goku was toying with Nappa throughout the fight, even after Nappa got his act together, the 4000 number seems fairly accurate going by the events of the story.

[CatouttaHell]

The main argument used against 4,000 is that Goku called Nappa a tough bastard and said taking him down would take forever but that's likely because Nappa is a fricking tank. He tanked Chaozu's self-destruction, Tenshinhan's Kikoho, etc all without a scratch. Before he powered up he was at a level where even with his ridiculous durability, Gohan's 2,800 Masenko made his arm numb. Yet that same Nappa was just coming right back from Goku's attacks like they were nothing. Can you imagine 60,000 Goku hitting Untransformed Zarbon several times over and him just jumping right back into the battle barely phased?

Anyway, everyone's entitled to their opinion and I'm not saying people shouldn't be allowed to disagree with the official numbers. I was simply just referring to a select group of idiots elsewhere who proclaim that anybody who agrees with official numbers is wrong because the official word clashes with their fan opinions.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I guess people aren't going to be mature. Oh well.

[Rocketman]

Nappa was in complete shock about Goku's initial Battle Power of 5000.

So was Vegeta, and he was nearly four times stronger than that.

[goldsaint13]

You obviously haven't ventured beyond this forum.

Not much... But yes, sometimes... Although I find it pointless to discuss about officially given power levels... I focus more on levels still to being revealed...

There's plenty of idiots in most other forums who disregard all official values and put him at 7,500/8,000 because they think their silly fan theories override the official word.

The word "official" itself contraddicts them...



About Nappa... Even Vegeta that has 18.000 charges a powerful beam to destroy him, while he could destroy Saibaimen simply pointing two fingers...
Nappa is though... He is a tank like you said... He is strong on the defensive side just like Butter is way faster than Recoom and Jeeth while having a similar power level...

[Fox666]

• Coupled with the fact that Goku was toying with Nappa throughout the fight, even after Nappa got his act together, the 4000 number seems fairly accurate going by the events of the story.

That doesn't even need to be the case. Battle powers are more representative rather than a perfect combat system. For example, why does Vegeta vaporized Kui in an instant, but didn't do the same with Goku whenever he turned the Kaio-ken off?

But that's not the question. Who drew the manga panels seems to have a value close to 4,000 in mind. Besides Nappa being scared of 5,000 or 7,000 or surprised by attacks of Earthling slight stronger than Raditz, there is this particular scene:



At this point, Goku's battle power was still 5,000. It doesn't matter if Nappa lost his mind or what, Nappa can't see Goku movements in front of him while he is still at 5,000.