DBZ: Ultimate Blast/Tenkaichi (Pre-Release Discussion)

[ShinMassa]

No, To be blunt I was reffering to ArchedThunder, Shin Massa and Shin Chou Senshi.

How am I arrogant? You're the one calling names.

EDIT: Wait I see, it's because I said someone obviously didn't know about games and they weren't perfect, right? Is it because I'm new you take offense to that or what? I'm not trying to be mean, it's just some people think that Spike has to be COMPLETELY spot on with this game. I don't care if they've been doing the franchise for 6 years or less, Bungie has been doing Halo for 10, and they were no where near perfect. CC2 does Naruto, and they're aspects are shit. They only thing that draws people in with their games is the cutscenes, boss fights, and free roam story mode. The combat is just mashing the circle button with special attacks, kind of like the RB series, if I'm not mistaken.

But hey, this is my opinion, right? Just like how you all have your own opinion. We all don't have to be pointing fingers saying who's arrogant or dumb.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

No, it is far from the same "Coding" I don't even think you know what coding pertains to in terms of games, most people don't, and no they are not the same animations, all animations have been redone, you can't just slap an animation that is rigged to a blocky low poly model onto a high poly, it just doesn't work like that.
Also feet haven't gone through the ground since RB1 and I will explain in more detail why we will not see this problem with Gohan fixed. The shoulder pauldrons of the Saiyan armor are non solids protruding from the model. They are not always there, they are only on an alternate outfit, which are the same models working with permutations in textures and particles. The design of the saiyan armor stops his arm from being able to move freely and thus it clips. It has nothing to do with Spike's game design or "coding", *it is essentially Toriyama's fault.

I don't think you know what you are talking about in terms of code. The scripts for the mouth flaps; the scrips for the arm movements; the script for how the character moves around the stages(ALL THE SAME FROM 2005). There is a simple solution to all of this(it's a little more work but hey...); Spike uses the same code for Gohan's attack not taking into consideration the various shapes of armor(this goes for Vegeta too; OH AND FUCKING GOKU'S SSJ3 HAIR!). Instead what they should do is rig up a different code for that specific armor. The animation team could rig the shoulder pads to give the illusion of the armors elastic feel instead of having the armor just being a clunky block with no animation rigs. It's not a whole lot to ask.

*Oh and yea, Toriyama's design from twenty years ago is totally to blame for the short comings of a video game he has absolutely no part of. It is in no way the development teams fault or the lack of time put into each product.

[mckeg]

From the amount of reused animation, Spikes games definetely seem to be at least partialy skeletal based, the armour is definetly just a "block" thats attached to the main model with a different set of textures. From my understanding you can't have a seperate model thats just attached and animate like you just described.

Spike would actually have to have a totally seperate player model for the Gohan character in Frieza armour with its own weighted skeleton, so that animation effects the shoulder pads like in the anime/manga.

As we've seen time and time again from them, they don't think it's worth the effort. To be fair adding little things can open up new unexpected problems or glitches, and depending on the distance to release date, it might not be realistic to try. Games are very very hard to make, try just modding one, you'll appreciate just how much work goes into doing even "simple" features.

[goku the krump dancer]

No, To be blunt I was reffering to ArchedThunder, Shin Massa and Shin Chou Senshi.

How am I arrogant? You're the one calling names.

EDIT: Wait I see, it's because I said someone obviously didn't know about games and they weren't perfect, right? Is it because I'm new you take offense to that or what? I'm not trying to be mean, it's just some people think that Spike has to be COMPLETELY spot on with this game. I don't care if they've been doing the franchise for 6 years or less, Bungie has been doing Halo for 10, and they were no where near perfect. CC2 does Naruto, and they're aspects are shit. They only thing that draws people in with their games is the cutscenes, boss fights, and free roam story mode. The combat is just mashing the circle button with special attacks, kind of like the RB series, if I'm not mistaken.

But hey, this is my opinion, right? Just like how you all have your own opinion. We all don't have to be pointing fingers saying who's arrogant or dumb.

Stating your opinion is perfectly OK, I mean that is the point to a forum. But yes, you being new does have a little bit to do with what I said, going by 90% of your previous posts its almost like you came here to specifically tell all of us who thought this new game didnt look all that impressive that we were wrong. You and Shin Chou were throwing that "elitist" term around and putting this or this at the end of almost every post you made which made it seem as though you were talking to us like we were children. I know one of you has said you were part of another forum with a bunch of morons (something along those lines) but what you have to realize is that your are in a completely different forum from before albeit a much better one at that, with very reasonabley mature members. NO ONE here is acting as if they want or are expecting a game hand crafted from God but we are expecting and wanting something BETTER than what we've been getting the past 3 years. IMO the game is sounding much better with the whole CaC thing and someone esle noted that we were able to turn off the QTEs which will make the fights move more fluidly I hope. By all means state your opinion and defend the game as much as you want, just stop trying to sound like a Messiah or like your leading the ressistance its not necessary.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

From the amount of reused animation, Spikes games definetely seems to be at least partialy skeletal based, the armour is definetly just a "block" thats attached to the main model with a different set of textures. From my understanding you can't have a seperate model thats just attached and animate like you just described.

Spike would actually have to have a totally seperate player model for the Gohan character in Freeza armour with its own weighted skeleton, so that animation effects the shoulder pads like in the anime/manga.

As we've seen time and time again from them, they don't think it's worth the effort.

the armor would have to be a fully function model, seperate from Gohan. They already use different player models for each costume(and transformation). If anything this might HELP them with the lazyness. They could rig one Gohan model then have each of the outfits have there own functions and animation scripts(the clothes could sway in the wind...that sort of thing). The models would look better just from that alone, plus we'd see a lot less clipping issues if this was done properly.


Is this a whole lot to ask for? Yes, especially with the fact that they only have one year to make each game. However, since this is my $60, I have every right to expect the best. Especially when it's been done before.

The problem with spike is that they are using a lot of techniques from the PS2 days when we are years into a new generation. They added some polygons, glossed up the models but the rigging is still the same; and I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it for me.

[mckeg]

"The armor would have to be a fully function model, seperate from Gohan. They already use different player models for each costume(and transformation). If anything this might HELP them with the lazyness. They could rig one Gohan model then have each of the outfits have there own functions and animation scripts(the clothes could sway in the wind...that sort of thing). The models would look better just from that alone, plus we'd see a lot less clipping issues if this was done properly."

Hmmm what animation system are you talking about that lets you do that specificly? I kinda get what your saying but that might add to much work for the "old granny" ps3 & xbox360 systems. John Carmack stated that at this rate those consoles won't have a 10 year cycle as planned, phones and tablets will sapass them in power within 2 years.

Part of the "art" of game design is effectively balancing the "budget" as in how many assets can be going at once. Either Spike have based their choice on what will be all there and still run smooth, or their skills just aren't up to it

"The problem with spike is that they are using a lot of techniques from the PS2 days when we are years into a new generation. They added some polygons, glossed up the models but the rigging is still the same; and I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it for me."

I don't see that part with the ps2 day techniques could you use an example? The second part? yeah exported a higher polygon based on the orignal art asset or as you put it "added more polygons", but with animation (which is derived from the old games, not exactly copy n paste) you usually have to re-rigg and weigh stuff, otherwise major deforming and glitching occurs.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Hmmm what animation system are you talking about that lets you do that specificly? I kinda get what your saying but that might add to much work for the "old granny" ps3 & xbox360 systems. John Carmack stated that at this rate those consoles won't have a 10 year cycle as planned, phones and tablets will sapass them in power within 2 years.

Trust me, the PS3 and 360 can handle it(as for them being obsolete in 2 years, I disagree but that's a topic for another day on another forum). If you want an example on how this could work or if the PS3 can handle it, look at another Namco-Bandai published game; Soul Calibur IV, a game made three years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNWcUqJg ... re=related

Here's a quick example. Notice how the pieces of clothing move individually and are independent from one another. It's the type of thing I want to see with the armor and other clothing pieces in Dragonball.

Part of the "art" of game design is effectively balancing the "budget" as in how many assets can be going at once. Either Spike have based their choice on what will be all there and still run smooth, or their skills just aren't up to it

This is a good point, with the lack of sales they make off of each game, I doubt they get a big budget to do these things that I want, and that's not Spike's fault. However, if Namco Bandai, had spaced these games out in the first place there would be a bigger demand for each installment; thus a bigger budget would have been possible. Again not Spike's fault, but it is unfortunate.

I don't see that part with the ps2 day techniques could you use an example? The second part? yeah exported a higher polygon based on the orignal art asset or as you put it "added more polygons", but with animation (which is derived from the old games, not exactly copy n paste) you usually have to re-rigg and weigh stuff, otherwise major deforming and glitching occurs.

As for the PS2 thing, it has to do with the blocky feel of the character. Yes the characters look way better than there PS2 conterparts but they still have that blocky big head feel. Not sure how to describe it. But there is another thing, the way they treat the legs(specifically Goku's). They make the pants and leg one model(at least that's what it looks like) and it results in a weak look. I'll try to find a good example but watch how awkwardly goku's legs are when he kicks. I pointed it out back when Raging Blast 1 came out and I'm still noticing it today. I blame it on a poorly translated PS2 technique because I never noticed it being awkward back then. When it comes to a deformed look, the legs are the biggest thing to stand out.

[mckeg]

I think you misunderstood my meaning of budget, I should have said something like "resources". By that I mean amount of polygons on screen at once, sounds, animations, AI and physics.

The 6 year old machines processing and memory can only do all of that at once, to a certain level. SoulCalibur and other games of the traditonal fighting mould, have a key difference over spikes "simulator" type, it's scale. You have a much smaller arena to pack in a greater level of detail overall. This includes the characters polycount, physics simulations like semi-dynamic clothing or hair.

These are independantly "animated" by cpu calulations based on friction, weight, velocity and even simulated wind. so parts (not all) of clothing moves, as does hair and boobies even. DIMPS kinda did this with clothing in Burst Limit. And I forget which game but RB2 or BL did do a very very rough simulated hair effect.

Somethings are near impossible once a certain system is part of the engine, somethings are hard to add because of that systems perticular strengths and weaknesses. Quake2 had vertex weighed mesh defomation as its animation system, you could have really cool customised animations for the stock standard animation cycles player models did during jumping, running and taunting. Quake3 couldn't do that, it used a skeletal based animation system (so new models could be added and animated quicker). But it also introduced head, torso and legs that moved independantly of each other, it was a realistic first for games.

The good old armour clipping that's caused a bit of a sidetracking of the topic, probably is avoidable if spike really wanted to, somehow they could put (a lot of) time in and do something in code or asset creation. But they haven't, either cause it's realisticly not worth it or they don't give a rats arse.

Dimps did it in Burst Limit for me with the way characters just slowly float in midair, after being KO'd, then they suddenly plummet to the ground at high speed. Now that's lazy, it get's me pissed off and shouting at the screen, a lot more than alittle bit of clipping.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

The good old armour clipping that's caused a bit of a sidetracking of the topic, probably is avoidable if spike really wanted to, somehow they could put (a lot of) time in and do something in code or asset creation. But they haven't, either cause it's realisticly not worth it or they don't give a rats arse.

Dimps did it in Burst Limit for me with the way characters just slowly float in midair, after being KO'd, then they suddenly plummet to the ground at high speed. Now that's lazy, it get's me pissed off and shouting at the screen, a lot more than alittle bit of clipping.

I'm guessing they don't really know how, and because they don't know how or have the time to learn, they just don't care. I had an idea that could fix the clipping issue, ad to the extra detail and still make the game feel big. But it would be a bit off topic I guess. As for the Burst Limit thing, I agree. That was a bit unacceptable given the fact that Budokai 2 was able to have them fall to the floor after dying.

Really, at the end of the day it's all about the gameplay. It looks like they are reshaping a lot of things and I'm looking forward to seeing where this goes. However, I'm not getting my hopes up.

[InfernalVegito]

What I expect again is the option to choose a stage in training mode. NOT just stuck with one map that has nothing. I know it's just training but I like to fight against CPU on very hard in training way more because no one dies and I don't have to press start and start the fight again. It's probably not an issue to anyone else but this annoys me extremely. In RB1 you could change the map and in RB2 you couldn't, you just had the grasslands to play on. That sucked.

[ShinMassa]

No, To be blunt I was reffering to ArchedThunder, Shin Massa and Shin Chou Senshi.

How am I arrogant? You're the one calling names.

EDIT: Wait I see, it's because I said someone obviously didn't know about games and they weren't perfect, right? Is it because I'm new you take offense to that or what? I'm not trying to be mean, it's just some people think that Spike has to be COMPLETELY spot on with this game. I don't care if they've been doing the franchise for 6 years or less, Bungie has been doing Halo for 10, and they were no where near perfect. CC2 does Naruto, and they're aspects are shit. They only thing that draws people in with their games is the cutscenes, boss fights, and free roam story mode. The combat is just mashing the circle button with special attacks, kind of like the RB series, if I'm not mistaken.

But hey, this is my opinion, right? Just like how you all have your own opinion. We all don't have to be pointing fingers saying who's arrogant or dumb.

Stating your opinion is perfectly OK, I mean that is the point to a forum. But yes, you being new does have a little bit to do with what I said, going by 90% of your previous posts its almost like you came here to specifically tell all of us who thought this new game didnt look all that impressive that we were wrong. You and Shin Chou were throwing that "elitist" term around and putting this or this at the end of almost every post you made which made it seem as though you were talking to us like we were children. I know one of you has said you were part of another forum with a bunch of morons (something along those lines) but what you have to realize is that your are in a completely different forum from before albeit a much better one at that, with very reasonabley mature members. NO ONE here is acting as if they want or are expecting a game hand crafted from God but we are expecting and wanting something BETTER than what we've been getting the past 3 years. IMO the game is sounding much better with the whole CaC thing and someone esle noted that we were able to turn off the QTEs which will make the fights move more fluidly I hope. By all means state your opinion and defend the game as much as you want, just stop trying to sound like a Messiah or like your leading the ressistance its not necessary.

Didn't try to sound like I was better. I only use the smilies 'cause they're there.

But I'll stop. I'll wait until I'm a regular.

[Great Saiyaman I]

No, no, its fine for you to state your opinion. We're not that kind of forum that judges by post count. Just don't be condescending towards others is what he's saying.

[Hellspawn28]

I hope I will bump into real characters online then a bunch of lame "SSj5's or SSj9000's" online. I remember my friends got piss off that in Mortal Kombat: Armageddon that they would always fight lame custom characters then any real characters in the game. I had the same issue in SC4 where I fight a bunch of custom Dante's online then someone like Nightmare.

[Saimaroimaru]

I hope I will bump into real characters online then a bunch of lame "SSj5's or SSj9000's" online. I remember my friends got piss off that in Mortal Kombat: Armageddon that they would always fight lame custom characters then any real characters in the game. I had the same issue in SC4 where I fight a bunch of custom Dante's online then someone like Nightmare.

Considering how long Fan Creations have been festering waiting for a CAC mode, I doubt we will ever see a regular character online from the series unless there is some sort of filter or non-CAC character online fight mode.

One thing that will pop out of this is many youtube vids of these creations. LOL, get ready for DBAF Episode 1 courtesy of UT.

[LeprikanGT]

Thats the exact trash I don't want to see anywhere in existance, let alone in an oficial release and online tournament of a game.

[SparkyPantsMcGee]

Thats the exact trash I don't want to see anywhere in existance, let alone in an oficial release and online tournament of a game.

It's not really a big deal. Let those who want to have this feature have it. It's not going to hurt you as much as you think. Even if there are going to be a lot of SSj15's running around online matches, don't play with them. It's not like the community stays strong anyway. Your best bet is to just play offline with friends at home. That's what I do.

[ShinMassa]

Thats the exact trash I don't want to see anywhere in existance, let alone in an oficial release and online tournament of a game.

I don't see why you're complaining about a feature you can easily ignore. Didn't you say you don't play online? Why are you fussing about it?

[LeprikanGT]

I'll have to play to get online trophies, and I watch videos of games online and you know there will be a billion SS-whatevers, that will just further push AF and all around tarnishes DBZ.

[ShinMassa]

I'll have to play to get online trophies, and I watch videos of games online and you know there will be a billion SS-whatevers, that will just further push AF and all around tarnishes DBZ.

There's probably gonna be a filter just like the other RB games, and if there is a trophy/achievement where you play as or against a custom, it's not a big deal. Do it once and you're done. You don't have to come back to it.

[ArchedThunder]

No, it is far from the same "Coding" I don't even think you know what coding pertains to in terms of games, most people don't, and no they are not the same animations, all animations have been redone, you can't just slap an animation that is rigged to a blocky low poly model onto a high poly, it just doesn't work like that.
Also feet haven't gone through the ground since RB1 and I will explain in more detail why we will not see this problem with Gohan fixed. The shoulder pauldrons of the Saiyan armor are non solids protruding from the model. They are not always there, they are only on an alternate outfit, which are the same models working with permutations in textures and particles. The design of the saiyan armor stops his arm from being able to move freely and thus it clips. It has nothing to do with Spike's game design or "coding", *it is essentially Toriyama's fault.

I don't think you know what you are talking about in terms of code. The scripts for the mouth flaps; the scrips for the arm movements; the script for how the character moves around the stages(ALL THE SAME FROM 2005). There is a simple solution to all of this(it's a little more work but hey...); Spike uses the same code for Gohan's attack not taking into consideration the various shapes of armor(this goes for Vegeta too; OH AND FUCKING GOKU'S SSJ3 HAIR!). Instead what they should do is rig up a different code for that specific armor. The animation team could rig the shoulder pads to give the illusion of the armors elastic feel instead of having the armor just being a clunky block with no animation rigs. It's not a whole lot to ask.

*Oh and yea, Toriyama's design from twenty years ago is totally to blame for the short comings of a video game he has absolutely no part of. It is in no way the development teams fault or the lack of time put into each product.

Yet again, it has nothing to do with code. And no they couldn't just rig the shoulder pads to have different physics, it doesn't work like that, and even if they could it would look terrible, the shoulder pauldrons never bent like that in the anime or manga, instead the arms where drawn OVER them.
Let me say this one more time, and I will break it down word by word so you can digest it.
They
Are
Not
Using
The
Same
Animations,
"Coding",
OR
"Scripting."