Is "Ultra" Super Saiyan the equivalent of Kaio-Ken?

[jjgp1112]

I've been wondering this for a while. It seems like the way it's presented in the show the different grades of SSJ are accessed either through great training and then accessing the new power through improper means, or simply amplifying your current power and sacrificing speed as a result, like the Kaio-Ken but with a compromise in speed.

[goldsaint13]

I think that the 2nd grade may be like Kaioken because it sacrifices Ki to boost anything else... Not the 3rd grade though, because it sacrifices both Ki and speed for insane power and defense...

[Fox666]

They are pretty much completely different things.

The Kaio-ken is a technique that allow the use to multiply his power in exchange for Ki and body damage.

The Super Saiyan modify the user physical body. The Grade II is just another transformation, a very disadvantageous one. It's like the Grade II multiply the power by 2 however consumes 10 times more Ki.

[goldsaint13]

Grade II wastes Ki but increases any capacity, including speed... Grade III greatly increases power and endurance but wastes even more Ki than Grade II and reduces speed too...

But they should be wrong ways to attain the Full Power of SSJ like Goku implied... While what Goku and Gohan does is the right way probably... They just keep Ki under control and manages to get as strong as they would with the two Grades without wasting anything...

At least, it's a possible way to view it...


Kaioken is different though... It has only in common to be a risky bet to rely on... Like those two forms...


It seems that Vegeta and Trunks stopped to use them at Cell Games being able to equal the Cell Juniors only with basic SSJ... That means they trained their base forms as much as they could without relying on the Grades...

[hleV]

But they should be wrong ways to attain the Full Power of SSJ like Goku implied...

Goku implied what? Unlike SS grades, mastered SS doesn't give power. Goku and Gohan gotten much more powerful because they mastered SS and trained in the form. A person who mastered SS would still get more powerful if they went into SS Grade II or III.

[goldsaint13]

Goku implied what? Unlike SS grades, mastered SS doesn't give power. Goku and Gohan gotten much more powerful because they mastered SS and trained in the form. A person who mastered SS would still get more powerful if they went into SS Grade II or III.

That can be debated... Goku actually tries the two Ascended Grades and while Gohan was optimistic about their power being able to defeat Cell, Goku was skeptic... He actually noticed the great power boost but he noted that there was a waste of Ki and even speed... Then he said that it was not the right way... I suppose I could have meant that to attain the true power of SSJ it would have been better to take control of the form more than waste more Ki to reach more power...
But remember that the purpose of anyone was to surpass the SSJ itself that is SSJ2 that only Gohan attained at the time... The others seemed to reach the real SSJ power... The wrong way with the Ascended forms... The right way with the Full Power form...
Or at least it could be interpreted this way too... I don't remember to have red some *accurate* explanation of Grades and Full Power on the guides...

[hleV]

Reach "full power of SS" doesn't make sense for me. The point was to surpass SS, which means that the power of SS of that time wasn't enough. Mastering the form allowed to train under better conditions, which led to people achieving the goal. They trained, they gotten stronger, they gotten used to SS form. SS itself doesn't hold power that has to be achieved through mastering the form, or at least that's been never implied.

I believe Vegeta also mastered SS the 2nd time he entered ROSAT. It has to be true since he noticed himself that Goku and Gohan had done that. Vegeta just wasn't as strong as them because he had gone into ROSAT alone and hadn't have a companion to train with.

[goldsaint13]

Reach "full power of SS" doesn't make sense for me. The point was to surpass SS, which means that the power of SS of that time wasn't enough.

Not only that... Surpassing SSJ actually means SSJ2... It's made clear in Buu's arc when they called it "Super Saiyan that surpassed Super Saiyan itself"...

So both Ascended and Full Power are still the SSJ1... As I can understand by the manga, both Asended and Full Power implied that there was an hidden power within SSJ... Ascended is not the best way to draw it out, Full Power is instead... That's what I tend to understand from the dialogues... But it's a lot confusing, it should be noted...

Mastering the form allowed to train under better conditions, which led to people achieving the goal. They trained, they gotten stronger, they gotten used to SS form. SS itself doesn't hold power that has to be achieved through mastering the form, or at least that's been never implied.

To me the simple existence of the Ascended forms is a demostration that there is something hidden in SSJ in terms of power... Full Power itself is the same, it treats SSJ as a base form and pulls out a lot more power...

It's actually possible that Full Power would have turned base form and calm SSJ form into the same thing and this would explain the smaller difference between base and SSJ in Buu's saga...

I believe Vegeta also mastered SS the 2nd time he entered ROSAT. It has to be true since he noticed himself that Goku and Gohan had done that. Vegeta just wasn't as strong as them because he had gone into ROSAT alone and hadn't have a companion to train with.

I don't know... He didn't seem to be able to keep the form while staying calm and neither did Trunks (that also entered again)... To me, Vegeta has Full Power only in Buu's saga...

[hleV]

Reach "full power of SS" doesn't make sense for me. The point was to surpass SS, which means that the power of SS of that time wasn't enough.

Not only that... Surpassing SSJ actually means SSJ2... It's made clear in Buu's arc when they called it "Super Saiyan that surpassed Super Saiyan itself"...

Noone at that time knew about SS2, so no, it didn't mean that.
I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote in your last post.

[Godo]

Kaioken hurts the body in the long run and is itself dangerous to use. Super Saiya-jin grade III doesn't have those effects. Those factors themselves pretty much tell us that they aren't the same.

[goldsaint13]

Noone at that time knew about SS2, so no, it didn't mean that.

They possibly suspected about the existence of SSJ2 because they talk about "surpassing the limit of SSJ2" that is how SSJ2 is called...

I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote in your last post.

And I fear it will be like this until the guides will tell us more about Grades and Full Power...

[hleV]

Noone at that time knew about SS2, so no, it didn't mean that.

They possibly suspected about the existence of SSJ2 because they talk about "surpassing the limit of SSJ2" that is how SSJ2 is called...

That doesn't make sense. They tried transforming, it didn't pay off, they rejected the idea, they decided that normal SS is best. No clue about SS2 whatsoever. What happened later (like how they call SS2, etc.) is not a factor of what they tried to achieve for the Cell Games.