Gogeta's strength

[Kaboom]

Of course you can give some hocus-pocus explanation like Vegetto not realising how strong he was, or he was overkill, or simply Vegetto going Super Saiyan for fun. But it's hard to believe on any of these.

Well, Vegetto did mention later that he didn't expect Boo to end up so utterly helpless. Perhaps he really did underestimate himself at first.

[dbgtFO]

Since Vegeta transfomed in Super Saiyan to fight Evil Boo, I guess that limits his strength.

I think the most likely scenario is Vegetto either not being a match for Buu without Super Saiyan or perhaps equal to or slightly ahead, but not to an extent, where Buu would absorp him out of desperation.
I don't know what to do about Buu being shocked, when he witnesses Vegetto being born, though I'm probably reading too much into it.

Of course you can give some hocus-pocus explanation like Vegetto not realising how strong he was, or he was overkill, or simply Vegetto going Super Saiyan for fun. But it's hard to believe on any of these.

Agreed.

Of course you can give some hocus-pocus explanation like Vegetto not realising how strong he was, or he was overkill, or simply Vegetto going Super Saiyan for fun. But it's hard to believe on any of these.

Well, Vegetto did mention later that he didn't expect Boo to end up so utterly helpless. Perhaps he really did underestimate himself at first.

That implies more about Goku and Vegeta not knowing how strong Vegetto would get than it implies anything about Vegetto not knowing his own power. Afterall Vegetto limited himself to Super Saiyan 1, which doesn't seem like a good idea to do, if you don't know how strong you are.
Edit:

Hey, what about playing a little with probabilities? Think about it. The Potara would multiply the power of Goku/Vegeta by tens of millions. What are the chances that Gohan-absorbed Evil Boo would be exactly on the numerical margin that Vegetto would need to increase his power by 50?

What do you mean?

[Fox666]

That implies more about Goku and Vegeta not knowing how strong Vegetto would get than it implies anything about Vegetto not knowing his own power. Afterall Vegetto limited himself to Super Saiyan 1, which doesn't seem like a good idea to do, if you don't know how strong you are.

That would be the in-universe explanation I would give. But there is also the author point of view, why making Vegetto transform in a Super Saiyan?

Besides there is also an analysis of Vegetto fighting Evil Boo. As far I can tell Vegetto appear to need some effort to deflect Boo's blast, besides Boo can take plenty Vegetto's punches in the face. It's not like Vegetto would be one gazillion times stronger than Evil Boo.

[hleV]

I don't see how Gogeta would be so much weaker than Vegetto.

That's because you don't read people's posts.

I read every post in this thread prior to posting, your point? Save the rude posts for someone else.

Did you read the "Vegetto = Goku * Vegeta" part? It's the simpliest reason why Vegetto blows Gogeta away with ease, unless you think that Metamorian Fusion is somewhere near Fusee A * Fusee B, which is obviously not the case looking at Gotenks.

no matter what you're using as starting powers for the two, Vegetto is going to be millions of times stronger than either of them. MILLIONS.

Exfuckingactly. That's the end-game character of Dragon Ball for you. Flat out "Goku x Vegeta (in battle powers)" in the SEG is a proof, isn't it? Why doubt it? Especially when there are no contradictions about it whasoever. Vegetto going SS is easily explainable.

[dbgtFO]

no matter what you're using as starting powers for the two, Vegetto is going to be millions of times stronger than either of them. MILLIONS.

Exfuckingactly. That's the end-game character of Dragon Ball for you. Flat out "Goku x Vegeta (in battle powers)" in the SEG is a proof, isn't it? Why doubt it? Especially when there are no contradictions about it whasoever. Vegetto going SS is easily explainable.

Yeah, I also find it funny how the Daizenshuu implies that Vegetto knows how to make a Barrier simply because he's the best at everything:

Barrier[...]You can also understand how Vegetto, said to be the best in the universe in everything from ki control to ki strength, would be able to use it too.

For that reason solely, he just had to go. He's simply too overpowered for the rest of the Buu Arc to be interesting, if he was there, because as Goku says, Vegetto could defeat Pure Buu in one blast, whereas Goku had to gather all his ki for a finishing blow.

[Bussani]

Flat out "Goku x Vegeta (in battle powers)" in the SEG is a proof, isn't it? Why doubt it? Especially when there are no contradictions about it whasoever. Vegetto going SS is easily explainable.

If I remember correctly, the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing wasn't actually part of the text, but was more like an image. People question whether that should be taken literally, especially given the way Japan uses "x" sometimes. The text itself said something like "the power up isn't the sum of the two's battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication"--which certainly could mean it's literally one battle power multiplied by another. But on the other hand, it could just be a way of saying the power up is like a multiplication--in other words, the fusion is stronger than the sum of its parts, which is definitely true no matter how you look at it. Given how strong Vegetto is, I guess it doesn't usually matter whether you believe it's literal or not. I'd like to see Herms' thoughts on the matter, since he's the one who's read the page.

[Kaboom]

Given how strong Vegetto is, I guess it doesn't usually matter whether you believe it's literal or not.

Exactly my point. Whether it's literal or metaphorical or whatever, it doesn't change the message: Vegetto is the strongest anything ever.

[Maphisto86]

Yeah I am hardly an expert but it is pretty much a given that Vegetto is likely the stronger of the two; via Toriyama's opinion aka "Word of God". Not to mention the Daizenshuu also stating that Potara fusion produces a more efficient merging then the dance technique the Metamorians invented. Considering Buu saga era Gogeta only appeared in a non-canon film (and beating his opponent quickly) it is hard to tell how much potential he would have compared to his Potara counterpart. I forget but does the Daizenshuu or any of the other guide books imply any "formula" for either of the fusion techniques (how much it enhances the two characters merging)? I don't recall anything like that so debating Gogeta's potential is fan theory at best unless some new offical material comes along. All and all it's safe to say Gogeta's no lightweight even compared with the all-mighty Vegetto.

[vegetaslegacy15]

Flat out "Goku x Vegeta (in battle powers)" in the SEG is a proof, isn't it? Why doubt it? Especially when there are no contradictions about it whasoever. Vegetto going SS is easily explainable.

If I remember correctly, the "Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto" thing wasn't actually part of the text, but was more like an image. People question whether that should be taken literally, especially given the way Japan uses "x" sometimes. The text itself said something like "the power up isn't the sum of the two's battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication"--which certainly could mean it's literally one battle power multiplied by another. But on the other hand, it could just be a way of saying the power up is like a multiplication--in other words, the fusion is stronger than the sum of its parts, which is definitely true no matter how you look at it. Given how strong Vegetto is, I guess it doesn't usually matter whether you believe it's literal or not. I'd like to see Herms' thoughts on the matter, since he's the one who's read the page.

Well I read Vegetto's fight again Buuhan again and he is definitely stronger than Vegeta plus Goku. It seems like there multiplied considering how Goku was scared of normal Super Boo so that would mean that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is nowhere near the level of Super Boo. so that means Vegeta in Goku in base are absolutely nowhere near him in power. Seeing how Buuhan is a lot stronger than normal Super Boo that would mean Vegetto's strength would have to be a multiplication of Goku and Vegeta unless its like Goku plus Vegeta plus 1,000,000,000. Which probably is not the case. But then Goten and Trunks are pretty strong considering there age and them fusing using the dance was piss-ass weak in base and Super Saiyan. So Goku and Vegeta fusing together using the dance would probably be pretty weak too. But thing is it kind of depends how much stronger Vegeta and Goku are than Goten and Trunks.

[Bussani]

Well I read Vegetto's fight again Buuhan again and he is definitely stronger than Vegeta plus Goku.

Well yeah. I think all the major fusions we see are stronger than the sum of their parts. It may be possible to get one that isn't, of course; we'll never know what Goku + Mr. Satan would have produced.

It seems like there multiplied considering how Goku was scared of normal Super Boo so that would mean that Super Saiyan 3 Goku is nowhere near the level of Super Boo. so that means Vegeta in Goku in base are absolutely nowhere near him in power. Seeing how Buuhan is a lot stronger than normal Super Boo that would mean Vegetto's strength would have to be a multiplication of Goku and Vegeta

"Goku plus Vegeta" and "Goku times Vegeta" aren't the only two possibilities. It not being one doesn't necessarily make it the other.

[rereboy]

The guides explanation for Vegetto's power as a multiplier with the potara sucks if we interpret it literately, and is basically disproved by Kibitoshin.

Kaioshin is at least as strong as Piccolo. So he is at least at hundreds of millions in battle power, lets say 500 000 000.

Even if Kibito is just 250 000 in battle power (half of Freeza's first form power), Kibitoshin's total power would still be 125 000 000 000 000.

That is a insane power and since Kaioshin is implied to be useless when compared to Goku and Vegeta, it can't be true.

Hell, following that logic, even if Goku fused with Mr. Satan, if Mr. Satan has a battle power of 10, the resulting fusion would still be 10 times stronger than Goku at full power.

So, to me a literal interpretation of that explanation is bullshit. If it was true, Vegetto wouldn't even need SSJ. Base power of 5 million multiplied by base power of 5 million is equal to 250 000 000 000 000. I highly doubt even Gohan-Buu went that far, and this is just the math with conservative power levels for Goku and Vegeta's base power.

[CatouttaHell]

Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta has nothing to do with Kaioshin, Kibito, or Kibitoshin. It's VEGETTO'S multiplier, not theirs. There's no set fusion formula; it's not a predictable thing at all.

Kibitoshin's multiplier is not stated anywhere so he can be anything whatsoever.

And I really don't see how it can't be true. I follow all guidebook and manga statements, including Vegetto's multiplier, and I have Gohan-Boo multiple times stronger than Base Vegetto.

Some people just explain it away with "Vegetto had no idea how powerful he was so he went SSjin just in case" which kind of twists logic but it isn't impossible.

[rereboy]

I also explained that if that would be the case, Vegetto would only need his base to beat Buu (in case you didn't read that part).

Even with just 5 million of base power for Goku and Vegeta, Vegetto would have 250 000 000 000 000 in his base.

And in the manga Vegetto immediately transformed into SSJ to fight Buu and he didn't change back to base so he needed SSJ to fight him. To think otherwise is twisting logic to the breaking point.

Anyway, its just my opinion. I just don't feel its meant to be taken literally. At least not while using battle powers. And there are enough arguments to think as such.

[InfernalVegito]

Can't it be that Vegetto simply went SSJ because it was cool?

[rereboy]

Can't it be that Vegetto simply went SSJ because it was cool?

Then why not use SSJ2 or SSJ3? It would be even cooler.

[hleV]

The guides explanation for Vegetto's power as a multiplier with the potara sucks if we interpret it literately, and is basically disproved by Kibitoshin.

Kibito and Kaioshin weren't rivals. I don't care if you don't believe in the rivalry boost, it's the perfect explanation and I doubt Elder Kaioshin mentioned it only for the lulz.

Basically:

• Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta = Goku * Vegeta. Multiplier of their BPs because the fusees are rivals.
  Metamorian Fusion of Goku and Vegeta = N/A. Unknown formula.
  Metamorian Fusion of Goten and Trunks = N/A. Unknown formula.
  Potara Fusion of Goten and Trunks = N/A. Unknown formula. Stronger than Metamorian Fusion of Goten and Trunks.

Can't it be that Vegetto simply went SSJ because it was cool?

That's absolutely possible and makes sense. Not to mention that Goku was told by Elder Kaioshin to transform after fusing, although even without that he should be strong enough.

In my eyes, Vegetto is a cocky bastard, and went SS for fun. He seemed pretty confident in his base to start with, but I believe he said "And even better -- Super Vegetto!"

[Fox666]

Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta = Goku * Vegeta. Multiplier of their BPs because the fusees are rivals.

That is just an assumption of the fans. We can't be sure of what kind effect the rivalry thing would have.

[hleV]

Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta = Goku * Vegeta. Multiplier of their BPs because the fusees are rivals.

That is just an assumption of the fans. We can't be sure of what kind effect the rivalry thing would have.

The only real difference between Vegetto and Kibitoshin is that fusees Vegetto is made of are rivals. Kibitoshin is obviously not a multiplier of Kaioshin and Kibito's BPs. It's a fan assumption, right, but it's the only logical one if you ask me.

[Kaboom]

It's like I've said for a while now, Fusion is too unpredictable to apply strict things like formulas to it. If slight imperfections in the performance of the Fusion dance can so drastically affect the outcome, what other elements might do the same?

Could slight variances in height or size or full, un-evened-out power yield a "less perfect" Fusion? Could things like having more transformations in reserve or more "hidden potential" affect the resulting power or capabilities of a Fusion? Could people of similar but not identical races fuse? Or could being a half-breed affect how "perfect" the Fusion ends up? The Potara are made for the Kaioshin, so might they work differently than when used by other races?

If you take things like this into account, it might offer some potential explanation for why some Fusions were more or less potent than others.

[hleV]

Why would it be so complicated? I'm up for the simpliest yet most logical theories.

Metamorian Fusion is unmeasurable for us, fans, because we don't know how strong were Goten and Trunks, compared to anyone.
Potara Fusion of Kaioshin and Kibito seems to be pretty weak, yet Potara Fusion of Goku and Vegeta is incredibly strong. On top of that, it's stated to be a multiplier of their BPs, which contradicts with nothing. Rivalry boost is mentioned. It's a great idea why Vegetto is so strong.

Simple as that.

Dragon Ball is not complicated. We just don't know all the details. Complicated theories are silly.